Thoughts on Super Saiya-jin power-ups

[James R. Cadwell]

I sincerely hope you aren't stating that Gohan wouldn't have what it takes to beat Kid Boo. The Genki Dama doesn't work in the fashion your portraying. Going by your logic, Freeza > Mystic Gohan+Goten+Trunks+Piccolo. The genki they gave to the Genki Dama was smaller than the Genki Dama Goku used on Planet Namek, which was only derived from plants, and animals, and the like, and Freeza was able to survive it. So we use your logic, Freeza is stronger than the strongest unfused character, plus three others. Therefore the Genki Dama doesn't work in the fashion you think it does.

It's not clear what you're talking about here, so I'm not going to bother replying. How does my logic imply that Freeza is stronger than Mystic Gohan? I would seriously recommend being more perspicuous in the future.

As Rachel said, you don't give your full power. Its not even really about power, rather Genki.

So basically you're saying that in addition to "ki", a mystical, intangible form of energy, people also possess "genki", another mystical, intangible form of energy which has precisely the same characteristics as "ki". Why are these two different?

Moreover, Trunks and Goten were exhausted (in the anime, at least) after lending their energy to the "Genki Dama", which implies that they gave away -most- of their energy.

If it were about power, don't you think Trunks and Goten would have fused into Gotenks, THEN give their Genki?

Trunks and Goten are immature children who had never seen the "Genki Dama" before, so I'm not surprised that it didn't dawn on them to fuse and -then- contribute their energy.

Doesn't work that way my friend. SSJ3 Goku at Full Power, as he states, (Vegeta too), would have enough ki to abolish Boo. Even SSJ3 Gotenks was about to abolish Boo with a Kamehame-Ha, and Boo was damn well aware of it, and was completely relieved when the fusion wore off.

Then why didn't they kill Buu? If any of those characters were capable of generating the energy required to destroy Buu's body, they would have done so. Furthermore, if a character -did- have enough power to kill Majin Buu, then it would take a conscious effort -not- to kill him with every energy attack.

How is that so? Even SSJ Gotenks and Piccolo could have beaten Boo. Rewind back to the Room of Spirit and Time where Gotenks used his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack. Boo was in pieces and they decided to burn him up. But burning him up caused his smoke to reform. Piccolo then states "Dammit! We should have used our ki to completely obliterate him, instead of just burning him up." This is exactly what SSJ3 Gotenks was going to do to Super Boo. Quote: "Now to finish you! I'm going to blow you into chunks, then to pieces, then to shreds, then to tiny bits. This time not even you will be able to return to normal. Once I blow you apart, I'm going to completely whipe you out with my ki, you see?" *boo looks terrified*

Of course they're never actually able to do that, so it's irrelevant. If Super Saiya-jin Gotenks and Piccolo had the energy necessary to destroy Buu, then the -first- powerful energy attack they used should have killed Buu. It didn't.

Dialogue does not equal direct evidence.

[Gohan-kun]

"It's not clear what you're talking about here, so I'm not going to bother replying. How does my logic imply that Freeza is stronger than Mystic Gohan? I would seriously recommend being more perspicuous in the future. "

Okay. You said that Gohan or whoever wouldn't have enough ki to kill Boo. The size of the Genki Dama after Trunks, Goten, Piccolo, and Gohan added theirs was much smaller than the Genki Dama Goku used against Freeza. Freeza survived a Genki Dama much larger than the one those guys generated for Goku in the Boo saga. Using your logic, Freeza is stronger than Gohan and the others because he survived a much larger Genki Dama.

"Then why didn't they kill Buu? If any of those characters were capable of generating the energy required to destroy Buu's body, they would have done so. Furthermore, if a character -did- have enough power to kill Majin Buu, then it would take a conscious effort -not- to kill him with every energy attack"

Gotenks was about to. He was powering up a Kamehame-Ha to kill him.

"Of course they're never actually able to do that, so it's irrelevant. If Super Saiya-jin Gotenks and Piccolo had the energy necessary to destroy Buu, then the -first- powerful energy attack they used should have killed Buu. It didn't."

What the hell...that makes no sense. You still have to completely obliterate Boo with a powerful attack, which is what Gotenks was about to do. Simple ki blasts won't do the job as we've witnessed. Going by your logic, there's a whole mess of contradiction in the Cell saga. For example, SSJ2 Gohan was lightyears ahead of Cell, but his first powerful kikoha didn't kill Cell (Remember he used a Kamehame-Ha on him). You have to generate the ki first, its not like you just shoot and it'll automatically obliterare the person.

"Dialogue does not equal direct evidence."

Yes it does. Dialogue never contradicted is evidence. Otherwise, I can say Freeza's Cybernetic form is weaker than the form he had when he was defeated by Goku, even though its stated otherwise.

[James R. Cadwell]

Okay. You said that Gohan or whoever wouldn't have enough ki to kill Boo. The size of the Genki Dama after Trunks, Goten, Piccolo, and Gohan added theirs was much smaller than the Genki Dama Goku used against Freeza. Freeza survived a Genki Dama much larger than the one those guys generated for Goku in the Boo saga. Using your logic, Freeza is stronger than Gohan and the others because he survived a much larger Genki Dama.

What makes you think that there's a direct correlation between the size of the "Genki Dama" and its total energy? The "Genki Dama" Goku formed on Namek was produced using the energy from plants and the environment in general. We know for a -fact- that the "Genki Dama" used against Majin Buu had the combined energy of several Saiya-jin, Piccolo, many other spectacularly powerful warriors and a huge proportion of Earth's population. Are you implying that Goku's grass-powered "Genki Dama" on Namek was actually stronger than the one formed to kill Majin Buu just because it was bigger?

BTW, I'm not entirely convinced that the "Genki Dama" on Namek was larger than the one from later in the series -- anyone have pictures to get a sense of relative size?

Gotenks was about to. He was powering up a Kamehame-Ha to kill him.

We never actually got the chance to see whether or not it would have been effective, so this isn't exactly compelling evidence. Anyway -- what was stopping all of these characters which you -claim- could kill Majin Buu from just powering up immediately and destroying him?

"What the hell...that makes no sense. You still have to completely obliterate Boo with a powerful attack, which is what Gotenks was about to do. Simple ki blasts won't do the job as we've witnessed.

I said "powerful energy attack", not "simple ki blast". Gotenks and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku both hit Majin Buu with powerful energy attacks and they didn't kill him.

Going by your logic, there's a whole mess of contradiction in the Cell saga. For example, SSJ2 Gohan was lightyears ahead of Cell, but his first powerful kikoha didn't kill Cell (Remember he used a Kamehame-Ha on him).

Gohan was deliberately holding back his power at that point because he wanted to make Cell suffer. This was a major plot point and eventually led to Goku's death.

Yes it does. Dialogue never contradicted is evidence. Otherwise, I can say Freeza's Cybernetic form is weaker than the form he had when he was defeated by Goku, even though its stated otherwise.

Dialogue resulting from a -direct observation- that isn't contradicted by other evidence is valid. Goku's comments were vague and were contradicted by secondary evidence later in the series.

[urhash]

Err... you're a scientist, aren't you?

[Gohan-kun]

"What makes you think that there's a direct correlation between the size of the "Genki Dama" and its total energy?"

It must have. Because after receiving their Genki, Goku says "WHOA! Its gotton this big and its only from our friends." If it had nothing to do with its power, Goku wouldn't have gotton excited at how large it was. Its obvious the larger the Genki Dama, the more powerful it is. And go check the manga. The Genki Dama on namek was definitely larger.

"Anyway -- what was stopping all of these characters which you -claim- could kill Majin Buu from just powering up immediately and destroying him? "

To toy with him? Gohan was outrageously more powerful than Super Boo. He completely dominated him. He didn't just whipe him out quickly.

And SSJ3 Gotenks is cocky as hell. Of course he's going to flaunt the goods before finishing someone off. And when Super Boo ticked him off, he dominated him, and was about to finish him off by completely oblitering him with his kamehameha. Its stated obliterating Boo with your ki will do the job. Thats what Gotenks was going to do.

"I said "powerful energy attack", not "simple ki blast". Gotenks and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku both hit Majin Buu with powerful energy attacks and they didn't kill him."

Ever think because it wasn't powerful enough? And SSJ3 Gotenks never did a powerful attack against Boo. He was about to finish him but the fusion wore off.

Anyway, you're basically saying that Mystic Gohan wouldn't even be able to beat Kid Boo, even though Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to have Gohan and/or Gotenks defeat Kid Boo. But then again, you say fictional characters lie unless the evidence smacks you dead in the face. If Mystic Gohan couldn't muster up enough power to kill Boo, there's no reason Boo would absorb Gotenks and Piccolo. If he couldn't be killed, he'd have nothing to worry.

[James R. Cadwell]

It must have. Because after receiving their Genki, Goku says "WHOA! Its gotton this big and its only from our friends." If it had nothing to do with its power, Goku wouldn't have gotton excited at how large it was. Its obvious the larger the Genki Dama, the more powerful it is. And go check the manga. The Genki Dama on namek was definitely larger.

You've essentially talked yourself into a corner here. If you're correct and a larger "Genki Dama" is correspondingly stronger than a smaller one, then the "Genki Dama" that failed to kill Freeza on Namek actually -was- more powerful than the one Goku used against "Kid" Buu. Are you -seriously- trying to imply that Freeza is more powerful than Majin Buu?

Ever think because it wasn't powerful enough? And SSJ3 Gotenks never did a powerful attack against Boo. He was about to finish him but the fusion wore off.

So how long would it have been necessary for Gotenks to act as an capacitor before he had built up enough energy to destroy Majin Buu?

This aspect of the argument isn't really an issue of contention for me any longer, since you've already established that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks didn't have the power required to kill Majin Buu. He apparently had the energy, but he needed to function as a capacitor for a period of time in order to use it.

Somehow I suspect you aren't going to understand what I'm saying here, though.

Anyway, you're basically saying that Mystic Gohan wouldn't even be able to beat Kid Boo, even though Goku thought Vegeta's plan was to have Gohan and/or Gotenks defeat Kid Boo.

Cite the relevant dialogue.

But then again, you say fictional characters lie unless the evidence smacks you dead in the face.

Yes, my argument is that fictional characters are LYING ALL THE TIME. Since you appear to be having difficulty comprehending why the reliability of dialogue can be questionable, allow me to explain my reasoning -yet again-.

Dialogue is not reliable when it is:

a.) From a source who is not directly observing events and who is not qualified to comment. (i.e. Yamucha rambling about Krillin in the Buu Saga)

b.) Contradicted by direct evidence or other secondary evidence.

I personally think that Goku's comments concerning his ability to defeat "Fat" Majin Buu are contradicted by other evidence. (although he is certainly a reliable source.) That being said, my opinion is exactly that - an opinion. To be perfectly honest, I believe the inference I made about Mystic Gohan's energy and the "Genki Dama" is -flimsy- and doesn't conclusively demonstrate that Goku would have been unable to kill "Fat" Buu.

I don't think Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku could have won the first time he fought "Fat" Buu because he was already fatigued and exhausted -hours- worth of energy in a few minutes. The fight was almost over before Goku teleported away. Goku didn't win against "Kid" Buu for the same reason -- energy depletion.

[Gohan-kun]

"If you're correct and a larger "Genki Dama" is correspondingly stronger than a smaller one, then the "Genki Dama" that failed to kill Freeza on Namek actually -was- more powerful than the one Goku used against "Kid" Buu. Are you -seriously- trying to imply that Freeza is more powerful than Majin Buu? "

What? I didn't say that. I'm talking about the Genki ONLY received by the Z Warriors including mystic Gohan. When they were the only ones to give Genki, the Genki Dama got larger but it was smaller than the one Goku used on planet namek. The final Genki Dama was larger than the Genki Dama on Namek, but not the Genki Dama which Gohan, Goten, Trunks etc put into.

"This aspect of the argument isn't really an issue of contention for me any longer, since you've already established that Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks didn't have the power required to kill Majin Buu. He apparently had the energy, but he needed to function as a capacitor for a period of time in order to use it.

Somehow I suspect you aren't going to understand what I'm saying here, though."

Because you twist crap around. SSJ3 Gotenks had the power/energy to finish off Boo. He just ran out of time because the fusion wore off. Had he not clowned around, Boo would have died.

"Cite the relevant dialogue."

Seriously man, I'm sincerely starting to doubt your credibility. While you are intelligent in the English language, being able to speak intelligently and all, you can't recall a lot of scenes present in both anime and manga. Vegeta tells Goku that he has a plan to beat Boo and Goku gets excited and says he's going to have Gohan and/or Gotenks beat him, and Vegeta says no, he wants the earth to defend itself.

"Dialogue is not reliable when it is:

a.) From a source who is not directly observing events and who is not qualified to comment. (i.e. Yamucha rambling about Krillin in the Buu Saga) "

You believing Yamucha isn't qualified is your opinion. Fact is, Toriyama had him state it. He said it, it holds truth.

[PsyLiam]

I'm not sure if this is entertaining, or extraordinarily painful.

I will side with James on one point though, and that's the whole "characters speaking the truth thing." You state that Toriyama had Yamcha say something, therefore it was the truth. Yamcha wasn't the narrator. Yamcha is a character. A character will not always say what it true. He might say what he thinks is true. He might lie. Toriyama would write him that way.

Granted, there is a convention in media that people tend to speak the truth unless it's blatantly obvious that they aren't. However, it's not a cast-iron rule by any means. And Yamcha's comment does have many qualifiers, as has been stated:

1/ He was talking to Marron. If he was talking to, say, Bulma, who won't have a bias towards either Kuririn or Tenshinhan being stronger, then it is more likely to be true. But he was talking to the offspring of one of those humans.

2/ We really don't know when he last saw Tenshinhan. I really do doubt, however, that he had a scouter lying around and scanned Kuririn and Tenshinhan the day before the tournament.

3/ All the others James said.

[Gohan-kun]

I'm not sure if this is entertaining, or extraordinarily painful.

I will side with James on one point though, and that's the whole "characters speaking the truth thing." You state that Toriyama had Yamcha say something, therefore it was the truth. Yamcha wasn't the narrator. Yamcha is a character. A character will not always say what it true. He might say what he thinks is true. He might lie. Toriyama would write him that way.

Granted, there is a convention in media that people tend to speak the truth unless it's blatantly obvious that they aren't. However, it's not a cast-iron rule by any means. And Yamcha's comment does have many qualifiers, as has been stated:

1/ He was talking to Marron. If he was talking to, say, Bulma, who won't have a bias towards either Kuririn or Tenshinhan being stronger, then it is more likely to be true. But he was talking to the offspring of one of those humans.

2/ We really don't know when he last saw Tenshinhan. I really do doubt, however, that he had a scouter lying around and scanned Kuririn and Tenshinhan the day before the tournament.

3/ All the others James said.

By using his logic, a great mush of whats stated isn't accurate then. He says Yamucha doesn't qualify. Thats his opinion. Regardless of who he thinks qualifies or not, it was stated. And the part about being strongest human, MARRON DID NOT HEAR THAT. All Yamucha told her was that he's the strongest guy in the world. Then when shes looking away, to comfort HIMSELF, he murmurs "Among earthlings anyway." Its clear Toriyama was establing Kuririn as the strongest human. Otherwise, he would have simply not have had Yamucha say that. Tell me one instance where a statement that has never been contradicted, proven to be invalid. Why should it now, if its never happened before? Kaioshin says he can beat Freeza in a single blow. I can just as easily say "He doesn't qualify." Or when Vegeta says he's stronger than Dabura, I can just as easily say "Well Vegeta is cocky, he says things. He says he could beat Cell, said he was an SSJ, etc."

[James R. Cadwell]

"What? I didn't say that. I'm talking about the Genki ONLY received by the Z Warriors including mystic Gohan. When they were the only ones to give Genki, the Genki Dama got larger but it was smaller than the one Goku used on planet namek. The final Genki Dama was larger than the Genki Dama on Namek, but not the Genki Dama which Gohan, Goten, Trunks etc put into.

So the combined energy of Mystic Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks, etc was all less than the meager amount of energy Goku was able to collect for the "Genki Dama" on Namek? A "Genki Dama" just containing their energy and the energy from the immediate environment on Kaioshin's planet would be insufficient to destroy Freeza?

"Because you twist crap around. SSJ3 Gotenks had the power/energy to finish off Boo. He just ran out of time because the fusion wore off. Had he not clowned around, Boo would have died.

Gotenks could not generate the power necessary to destroy Majin Buu if he needed to "charge up" an attack in order to accomplish that goal. He apparently -could- produce the energy -- just not the power. If you don't understand the distinction, you can try searching on Google.

Seriously man, I'm sincerely starting to doubt your credibility.

This isn't a credibility contest.

While you are intelligent in the English language, being able to speak intelligently and all, you can't recall a lot of scenes present in both anime and manga. Vegeta tells Goku that he has a plan to beat Boo and Goku gets excited and says he's going to have Gohan and/or Gotenks beat him, and Vegeta says no, he wants the earth to defend itself.

Quote the relevant dialogue verbatim.

You believing Yamucha isn't qualified is your opinion. Fact is, Toriyama had him state it. He said it, it holds truth.

This is addressed in the other topic.

[James R. Cadwell]

Its clear Toriyama was establing Kuririn as the strongest human. Otherwise, he would have simply not have had Yamucha say that.

Yamucha is not Akira Toriyama. Yamucha is a character Akira Toriyama -created-, and that character has his own thoughts, opinions, etc. Toriyama is capable of that -basic- level of literary characterization.

Kaioshin says he can beat Freeza in a single blow. I can just as easily say "He doesn't qualify." Or when Vegeta says he's stronger than Dabura, I can just as easily say "Well Vegeta is cocky, he says things. He says he could beat Cell, said he was an SSJ, etc."

Their claims are supported indirectly by other evidence. Yamucha's ramblings about Krillin are not.

[Jerseymilk]

I'm not sure if this is entertaining, or extraordinarily painful.

I will side with James on one point though, and that's the whole "characters speaking the truth thing." You state that Toriyama had Yamcha say something, therefore it was the truth. Yamcha wasn't the narrator. Yamcha is a character. A character will not always say what it true. He might say what he thinks is true. He might lie. Toriyama would write him that way.

Granted, there is a convention in media that people tend to speak the truth unless it's blatantly obvious that they aren't. However, it's not a cast-iron rule by any means. And Yamcha's comment does have many qualifiers, as has been stated:

1/ He was talking to Marron. If he was talking to, say, Bulma, who won't have a bias towards either Kuririn or Tenshinhan being stronger, then it is more likely to be true. But he was talking to the offspring of one of those humans.

2/ We really don't know when he last saw Tenshinhan. I really do doubt, however, that he had a scouter lying around and scanned Kuririn and Tenshinhan the day before the tournament.

3/ All the others James said.

By using his logic, a great mush of whats stated isn't accurate then. He says Yamucha doesn't qualify. Thats his opinion. Regardless of who he thinks qualifies or not, it was stated. And the part about being strongest human, MARRON DID NOT HEAR THAT. All Yamucha told her was that he's the strongest guy in the world. Then when shes looking away, to comfort HIMSELF, he murmurs "Among earthlings anyway." Its clear Toriyama was establing Kuririn as the strongest human. Otherwise, he would have simply not have had Yamucha say that. Tell me one instance where a statement that has never been contradicted, proven to be invalid. Why should it now, if its never happened before? Kaioshin says he can beat Freeza in a single blow. I can just as easily say "He doesn't qualify." Or when Vegeta says he's stronger than Dabura, I can just as easily say "Well Vegeta is cocky, he says things. He says he could beat Cell, said he was an SSJ, etc."

Just a thought, how do you know Yamucha wasn't saying the last comment to himself in comparison to just him? Yamucha has always had really low self-esteem and a been a touch self-centered. He could very well have been lamenting the fact, as he often does that Kuririn had long ago surpassed him in strength. Of course, this is just my opinion but I don't think Tenshinhan even ran across Yamucha's mind when he made that statement. Yamucha had never been the smartest guy among the Z Soldiers. I really do think he was just being nostalgic about his younger days when he was equal in strength to Kuririn.

[PsyLiam]

That's what I would assume too. A bit of that, mixed in with slight bitterness over how all the aliens get to be stronger than him without even trying.

Tell me one instance where a statement that has never been contradicted, proven to be invalid.

So you're saying "Tell me one instance where a statement that was never proven wrong was proven wrong"?

[Gohan-kun]

Gotenks could not generate the power necessary to destroy Majin Buu if he needed to "charge up" an attack in order to accomplish that goal. He apparently -could- produce the energy -- just not the power. If you don't understand the distinction, you can try searching on Google.

Charge up? Gotenks powers up, and tells Boo he's going to finish him and that he's gonna blow him to bits, smithereens, then to chunks etc. Then he says This time not even You will be able to return to normal because once he blows him apart, he's going to completely whipe him out with his ki. Where are you getting this "He could not generate the power necessary" garbage from. Nice joke, but find another way to be a jackass.

Their claims are supported indirectly by other evidence.

Please show me this indirect evidence. As you would say, "Cite source"

Quote the relevant dialogue verbatim.

I'll take Rachel's advice and get it within an hour. How's that?

Just a thought, how do you know Yamucha wasn't saying the last comment to himself in comparison to just him?

Uhh, he says "Among earthlings anyway." How on earth thats refering only to one person (yourself), I do not know.

So you're saying "Tell me one instance where a statement that was never proven wrong was proven wrong"?

With Yamucha, he says Kuririn > earthlings. This is never contradicted, yet, he says its not true. That has never happened before in DB. When something is stated, and never contradicted, it is fact. Yet, he says otherwise. Anyway I'll have the 'Gotenks and Gohan beating Boo' comment within the hour. This proves that they could beat Kid Boo. But then again, all he'll do is say "Well Goku wasn't qualified. He's a hick and a slob who eats like a pig."[/quote]

[VegettoEX]

Hey, folks:

If you're going to quote, for the love of all things message-board-holy, can you please use the QUOTE feature? Here's an example:

[quote="Person Who Originally Wrote It"]Here's what they originally wrote[/quote]

Go ahead and edit your posts to put this to use. Thank you soooo much ^^. And remember... civil DBZ conversations make us all look good, so be sure to keep up with that .

[Jerseymilk]

Gohan-kun wrote:

Uhh, he says "Among earthlings anyway". How on earth that's referring only to one person (yourself), I do not know.

You've misunderstood my question. It can be in reference to himself in the sense that as Liam stated above that he, as an earthling, was long ago outclassed by a bunch of aliens. I think that also as Liam said earlier, it's made him a bit bitter and ashamed that he's no longer at the point where he was in DB. I just think he was being nostalgic and wasn't really actually making a very analytical, unbiased statement. Instead, it was an emotional one, and you can't be analytical and unbiased in that case. In addition, I think he was also more just comparing only himself really to Kuririn who in a sense with his power-up from Saichorou and that he kept up on his training a little more, whereas Yamucha let it all go and let's face it, just gave up.

[Gohan-kun]

Gohan-kun wrote:

Uhh, he says "Among earthlings anyway". How on earth that's referring only to one person (yourself), I do not know.

You've misunderstood my question. It can be in reference to himself in the sense that as Liam stated above that he, as an earthling, was long ago outclassed by a bunch of aliens. I think that also as Liam said earlier, it's made him a bit bitter and ashamed that he's no longer at the point where he was in DB. I just think he was being nostalgic and wasn't really actually making a very analytical, unbiased statement. Instead, it was an emotional one, and you can't be analytical and unbiased in that case. I think he was also more just comparing himself to Kuririn who in a sense with his power-up from Saichorou and that he kept up on his training a little more, whereas Yamucha let it all go and let's face it, just gave up.

Like I said before, if it was to himself only, he would have easily said "Stronger than me anyway." Why would he say "Strongest AMONG Earthlings." Among is used to describe a scene with more than one person, such as "Among our friends." It is never used in a manner where its refering to one person, like "He's the greatest among him" meaning he couldn't have been only talking about himself. He says "Earthlings" as well too. Thats plural, meaning he's refering to more than one person.

EDIT: Okay, here's the verbaitim you asked for.

*Goku knocks his fist on his hand and gets extremely happy* "Ah ha! I get it Vegeta! You had Gotenks and Gohan brought back to life so they can come here!!" Don't see why Goku would get so happy if he didn't believe Gohan and/or Gotenks couldn't beat Boo. He gets overwhelemed with joy, thinking Gohan and Gotenks are coming to beat Boo, but then is dissappointed with sadness when Vegeta tells him thats not it and he wants the earth to defend itself for once.

[urhash]

I haven't been fully reading everything...

but why wouldn't Gohan or Gotenks be able to beat Kid Buu? Goku said all he needed to do was get to full strength SSJ3 in order to beat Buu, which of course he wasn't able to accomplish because of the fact that he was in a living body.

However, its generally agreed that Gohan's mystic powerup is equivalent (or even greater) than SSJ3.

[Jerseymilk]

Gohan-kun wrote:

Why would he say "Strongest AMONG Earthlings."

Because as I stated at the beginning of my last post, Yamucha is referring to the Saiyajins, the Namekians, etc., meaning they are all stronger than Earthlings.

[James R. Cadwell]

I haven't been fully reading everything...

but why wouldn't Gohan or Gotenks be able to beat Kid Buu? Goku said all he needed to do was get to full strength SSJ3 in order to beat Buu, which of course he wasn't able to accomplish because of the fact that he was in a living body.

However, its generally agreed that Gohan's mystic powerup is equivalent (or even greater) than SSJ3.

I got that idea from weak secondary evidence. I consider even ambiguous empirical observations to be superior to dialogue, although that's honestly not exactly a tenable position. I'd personally say that it's not perfectly clear that Gotenks, Gohan and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku would be able to destroy Majin Buu, but arguing otherwise is basically just a fun exercise in rhetoric.