No, SSJ Vegetto is not that strong.

[CatouttaHell]

How does GT imply that SS Vegetto > everyone you listed?

Son Goku states Super Vegeta-Baby I is the greatest power he's ever felt. He made no such remarks about him until the transformation, which means Vegetto was above Base Vegeta-Baby.

And where does it say Vegeta didn't need SSg2 against Semi-Perfect Cell?

Trunks was surprised Vegeta was transforming against Cell.

Then later on super-cautious Trunks confronts and prepares to fight Cell in SSjin. Cell becomes terrified and starts begging Vegeta to step in and do something. In the Anime SSjin Trunks even kicks his arse.

SSjin Vegeta > SSjin Trunks > Full Power Second Form Cell > Initial Second Form Cell

[Fox666]

Then later on super-cautious Trunks confronts and prepares to fight Cell in SSjin.

How do you know if he was planning to fight Cell without transforming in Grade II first? Only because Trunks was standing in front of him? Goku attacked no.20 and Majin Boo without transforming in Super Saiyan at all.

Considering Trunks actually transformed in order to catch Cell in speed, I suspect he wasn't yet in the same level of Cell.

[FNF]

Trunks was surprised Vegeta was transforming against Cell.

Then later on super-cautious Trunks confronts and prepares to fight Cell in SSjin. Cell becomes terrified and starts begging Vegeta to step in and do something. In the Anime SSjin Trunks even kicks his arse.

SSjin Vegeta > SSjin Trunks > Full Power Second Form Cell > Initial Second Form Cell

I still don't see why that means Full Power 2nd form Cell<SSjin Trunks.

A) Cell's power was said to have 'really flew up there' after going full power.

B) Cell had just been beaten into the ground and most likely lost tons of stamina/power. In fact, that is shown in the manga;
http://i42.tinypic.com/i56686.jpg

Note his mouth bleeding and in earlier panels he is shown finding it hard to breath and holding his stomach lol.

[asbereth]

The way I see, when you multiply two batter powers together, then it wouldn't be a battle power anymore. The units would've been different. For example, if you multiply two lengths together, the new quantity would have the units of area. Now you wouldn't compare area with length, would you?

Assuming, for example, Goku has a power level of 1 billion power level units, and Vegeta likewise. If I express both power levels in tera-power level units, then both Goku and Vegeta would have a power level of 0.001, which, when gets multiplied, would've been 0.000001 (and the units would be tera-power level units squared). If it is in giga power level units, then Goku and Vegeta both have a power level of 1, which when multiplied, would still give one.

IMO, the formula that Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku should never be taken literally since it wouldn't make any sense. I think what they really meant to say was that, Vegetto > Vegeta + Goku, and that he is insanely strong.

[hleV]

IMO, the formula that Vegetto = Vegeta x Goku should never be taken literally since it wouldn't make any sense.

It does make sense that Vegetto is THAT strong.

[Drayenko]

I hate when people say it doesn't make sense. Why doesn't it make sense? He is the strongest being ever, what's the big deal?

[asbereth]

Yes, he is insanely strong, but if you have read what I wrote on my post, then you would have read the reason why I think it didn't make sense for his power level to be the multiplication of Vegeta's and Goku's power levels.

We know from the story that there are at least two different power level units (the one being read by scouters, and kili), which implies that power level does indeed have units of measurement. It doesn't make sense to say that the temperature is 100, for example. You need say that it is 100 degrees Celsius or 100 degrees Fahrenheit, or Kelvin or what have you. What most people seem to forget here is that, when you multiply two numbers that have units, the units get multiplied as well (kind of similar to how when you multiply 1 ft with 1ft, you get 1 ft^2).

Assume, for example, that Goku's base power level is 100 kili, and likewise, Vegeta is also 100 kili. Now you multiply 100 kili with 100 kili, you get 10,000 kili^2. Does it make sense to say that Vegetto has a power level of 10,000 kili^2? No, it doesn't, since the unit of measurement for power level is kili and NOT kili^2.

It's similar to using, say, ft^2 as a unit for length. Would you say something like, 'the distance from Canada to Mexico is 1000000 square miles'? No, you wouldn't, since units for distance are units for length (miles, ft, meters, etc), not square-miles, square-foot, etc.

In a nutshell, I'm not saying that Vegetto is not strong. Yes, Vegetto might be 1 billion times as strong as Goku or Vegeta, but he can't have the power level of Vegeta's times Goku's, since the units won't make any sense.

And even if we are to ignore the fact that the units won't make sense altogether, how strong Vegetto is compared to Goku and Vegeta will still depend on which units of measurement you're talking about. In Kili, Vegetto might be only 3000 times as strong as Goku for example, whereas in scouter's units, it would be billions of times. I believe I have made my point.

[hleV]

Yes, he is insanely strong, but if you have read what I wrote on my post, then you would have read the reason why I think it didn't make sense for his power level to be the multiplication of Vegeta's and Goku's power levels.

We know from the story that there are at least two different power level units (the one being read by scouters, and kili), which implies that power level does indeed have units of measurement. It doesn't make sense to say that the temperature is 100, for example. You need say that it is 100 degrees Celsius or 100 degrees Fahrenheit, or Kelvin or what have you. What most people seem to forget here is that, when you multiply two numbers that have units, the units get multiplied as well (kind of similar to how when you multiply 1 ft with 1ft, you get 1 ft^2).

Assume, for example, that Goku's base power level is 100 kili, and likewise, Vegeta is also 100 kili. Now you multiply 100 kili with 100 kili, you get 10,000 kili^2. Does it make sense to say that Vegetto has a power level of 10,000 kili^2? No, it doesn't, since the unit of measurement for power level is kili and NOT kili^2.

It's similar to using, say, ft^2 as a unit for length. Would you say something like, 'the distance from Canada to Mexico is 1000000 square miles'? No, you wouldn't, since units for distance are units for length (miles, ft, meters, etc), not square-miles, square-foot, etc.

In a nutshell, I'm not saying that Vegetto is not strong. Yes, Vegetto might be 1 billion times as strong as Goku or Vegeta, but he can't have the power level of Vegeta's times Goku's, since the units won't make any sense.

And even if we are to ignore the fact that the units won't make sense altogether, how strong Vegetto is compared to Goku and Vegeta will still depend on which units of measurement you're talking about. In Kili, Vegetto might be only 3000 times as strong as Goku for example, whereas in scouter's units, it would be billions of times. I believe I have made my point.

That's why the units are named. It's battle power. Vegetto is Goku x Vegeta in battle power units. Which is a lot, yes, but that's how it is.

I remember how awkward it sounded in my ears a while ago, too. I thought that Vegetto is Goku x Vegeta, but in units exclusive to the fusion. That was before i knew that the guide actually tells us that it's battle power. You may want to browse and see the earlier discussions regarding Vegetto being Goku x Vegeta.

[asbereth]

Yeah, but which battle power units we're talking about here. As I mentioned, there are at least two different battle power units: the first one being the one read by the scouters, and the second one being kili.

Once again, assuming that we just take numbers in one of the unit, multiply them, then slap the units of battle power, we still need to decide if we're talking about scouter's battle power units or Babidi's battle power units to make sense of it.

As I mentioned, if it was kili, then Vegetto would roughly 3000 times as strong as Goku or Vegeta, whereas if we talk about scouters' units, then Vegetto would be billions of times stronger.

[hleV]

Yeah, but which battle power units we're talking about here. As I mentioned, there are at least two different battle power units: the first one being the one read by the scouters, and the second one being kili.

Once again, assuming that we just take numbers in one of the unit, multiply them, then slap the units of battle power, we still need to decide if we're talking about scouter's battle power units or Babidi's battle power units to make sense of it.

As I mentioned, if it was kili, then Vegetto would roughly 3000 times as strong as Goku or Vegeta, whereas if we talk about scouters' units, then Vegetto would be billions of times stronger.

Dude, battle power is "scouter units"...

Check the "Scouters" portion:
www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=bps

[dario03]

Is Vegetto stronger than SS4 Goku? I remember in the dub that the old kai said that SS4 Goku was the strongest fighter he had ever seen. I never thought much of it but if Vegetto is this strong then SS4 would annoy me even more. Was that just a dub line? please tell me it was...

Yes, he is insanely strong, but if you have read what I wrote on my post, then you would have read the reason why I think it didn't make sense for his power level to be the multiplication of Vegeta's and Goku's power levels.

We know from the story that there are at least two different power level units (the one being read by scouters, and kili), which implies that power level does indeed have units of measurement. It doesn't make sense to say that the temperature is 100, for example. You need say that it is 100 degrees Celsius or 100 degrees Fahrenheit, or Kelvin or what have you. What most people seem to forget here is that, when you multiply two numbers that have units, the units get multiplied as well (kind of similar to how when you multiply 1 ft with 1ft, you get 1 ft^2).

Assume, for example, that Goku's base power level is 100 kili, and likewise, Vegeta is also 100 kili. Now you multiply 100 kili with 100 kili, you get 10,000 kili^2. Does it make sense to say that Vegetto has a power level of 10,000 kili^2? No, it doesn't, since the unit of measurement for power level is kili and NOT kili^2.

It's similar to using, say, ft^2 as a unit for length. Would you say something like, 'the distance from Canada to Mexico is 1000000 square miles'? No, you wouldn't, since units for distance are units for length (miles, ft, meters, etc), not square-miles, square-foot, etc.

In a nutshell, I'm not saying that Vegetto is not strong. Yes, Vegetto might be 1 billion times as strong as Goku or Vegeta, but he can't have the power level of Vegeta's times Goku's, since the units won't make any sense.

And even if we are to ignore the fact that the units won't make sense altogether, how strong Vegetto is compared to Goku and Vegeta will still depend on which units of measurement you're talking about. In Kili, Vegetto might be only 3000 times as strong as Goku for example, whereas in scouter's units, it would be billions of times. I believe I have made my point.

This sounds like my thread from a few weeks ago http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 4&start=20

And yeah if you look at bp and kili like a line then it doesn't work but if you look at it like a area (and they have compared power to area like things like oceans) then it does work. You typically measure a room in feet or meters but the total size is stated in square feet or square meters so it could work.

to quote myself
"I guess it could make sense if the conversions are similar to conversions for square yards to square feet. (a yard is 3 feet for those that know) If you have a room thats 5 yards by 5 yards then it is 25 square yards. But if you want to convert that to square feet then it wouldn't be 25x3 but it would be 25x3^2 or 25x3x3 so 225 square feet. I just can't figure out if it would work like that for this comparison or not."

[Bussani]

The way I see, when you multiply two batter powers together, then it wouldn't be a battle power anymore. The units would've been different. For example, if you multiply two lengths together, the new quantity would have the units of area. Now you wouldn't compare area with length, would you?

I get what you're saying. I also think using it as a real formula isn't quite right (I think the fusion should come first and any "this x that = thiat" should be used to describe it, rather than the other way around), but I am willing to accept that Vegetto's battle power could be the value of Goku's multiplied by the value of Vegeta's in that sense. The guide puts it something like that.

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

I don't see it as strict math, and I don't think using strict math would be a good way to predict a fusion's strength.

[CatouttaHell]

I still don't see why that means Full Power 2nd form Cell<SSjin Trunks.

A) Cell's power was said to have 'really flew up there' after going full power.

B) Cell had just been beaten into the ground and most likely lost tons of stamina/power. In fact, that is shown in the manga;
http://i42.tinypic.com/i56686.jpg

Note his mouth bleeding and in earlier panels he is shown finding it hard to breath and holding his stomach lol.

You think he was so weakened that he was trash to even his initial power? I don't really think exhaustion works like that in DB IMO.

God was able to jump into Ma Junior's fight with Son at one point and block one of his punches with both hands, yet later on Ma Junior is so beaten that he can barely keep his eyes open and could barely get off the ground last time he went down and flat-out states he can beat God and everyone else at once.

Ma Junior was far, far more damaged than Cell was too IMO.

Trunks should also be like 1.2x Cell at minimum or he'd instantly go SSjinG2. Trunks is the last guy to fuck around with someone.

SSjinG2 Vegeta - 1.95
FP Cell - 1.5
SSjin Vegeta - 1.3
Initial Cell - 1.2
SSjin Trunks - 1.1
Exhausted Cell - 0.9

I just don't see that being the case... the gap between Ma Junior and God would have to be astronomical in that case...

[asbereth]

And yeah if you look at bp and kili like a line then it doesn't work but if you look at it like a area (and they have compared power to area like things like oceans) then it does work. You typically measure a room in feet or meters but the total size is stated in square feet or square meters so it could work.

That would be true when you're comparing bp^2 and kili^2, for example. Converting bp^2 to kili^2 would require you to multiply twice since the conversion factor would have units of bp/kili or kili/bp, but you would need kili^2/bp^2 or vice versa. Therefore, to convert from one to another, you'd need to multiply with this conversion factor twice. Using your example, the conversion factor from cm to m would be 100cm/m. So to convert from m^2 to cm^2, multiplying it with 100 (cm/m) would not be enough, since you would have only converted from m^2 to cm-m.

My biggest problem with this kind of formulation would not necessarily be the conversion factor, but the fact that you can't ever compare bp^2 with bp (or kili^2 with kili). Likewise, in the real world, you can't compare area with length (say, ft^2 vs. ft), since they're not really a measure of the same thing.

I get what you're saying. I also think using it as a real formula isn't quite right (I think the fusion should come first and any "this x that = thiat" should be used to describe it, rather than the other way around), but I am willing to accept that Vegetto's battle power could be the value of Goku's multiplied by the value of Vegeta's in that sense. The guide puts it something like that.

To make this work, what we should do is, take Vegeta's battle power in scouter's unit (just the number and forget the units), take Goku's battle power in scouter's unit (just the number and forget the units), multiply these two numbers together, then slap the battle power scouter's units at the end (rather than bp^2). It's mathematically far-fetched, but then again, some degree of suspension of disbelief is required for any work of fiction anyway. After all, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about.

Dude, battle power is "scouter units"...

Check the "Scouters" portion:
http://www.kanzentai.com/bp.php?id=bps

Okay, I have to say that I'm not all that familiar with the terminology of the extra materials (Daizenshuu, SEG, kanzentai, etc). Most of my Dragon Ball knowledge has come from the manga (I haven't even seen all the anime episodes yet), so it is fairly limited. I'll read up more. Thanks for the link by the way.

[Fox666]

It's mathematically far-fetched, but then again, some degree of suspension of disbelief is required for any work of fiction anyway. After all, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about.

I guess you are right.

Multiplication is the best term to aesthetically describe the effect of a fusion, even if it doesn't works perfectly. But is the kind of things Toriyama does.

[Bussani]

To make this work, what we should do is, take Vegeta's battle power in scouter's unit (just the number and forget the units), take Goku's battle power in scouter's unit (just the number and forget the units), multiply these two numbers together, then slap the battle power scouter's units at the end (rather than bp^2). It's mathematically far-fetched, but then again, some degree of suspension of disbelief is required for any work of fiction anyway. After all, this is Dragon Ball we're talking about.

Yeah. That's what I was trying to say, but you said it clearer.

[lash]

Never thought about that. But yeah, Battle power^2 does pose a problem for Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto if we reason Battle power to be a unit.

Perhaps it's not regular old multiplication.

I'm half awake while typing this, but I randomly thought...what if the cross sign is a Cartesian product? All of Goku's 'sets' as in [traits, abilities, transformations, and even battle power, etc] merged with Vegeta's own 'sets' creates a new set of 'sets'...aka Vegetto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_product
I breezed right through college Linear Algebra though(didn't like it), so my understanding of Cartesian Product might be off.

I think it would make a lot more sense as it truly accounts for all of "Goku" and all of "Vegeta" instead of assuming they just meant their battle powers in the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" statement.
Notice the picture says Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto.
Not Goku's Battle power x Vegeta's Battle power = Vegetto's Battle power...which means we don't necessarily have to view it as such.

The caption "...but rather as tremendous as multiplication" still holds for Goku's and Vegeta's battle power merging. It just doesn't have to be a direct multiplication of their battle power as the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" statement has already been resolved as a Cartesian product(if my understanding is right).

[hleV]

Is the term "battle power" only used as a name for the units that Scouters displayed? I mean, yeah, people who used Scouters were using the term BP, but is BP used for anything else, like just "power"? In the manga, its guides, etc.? While I really doubt it, I'm still asking, just to make sure that the SEG actually meant Scouter's BPs.

Notice the picture says Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto.
Not Goku's Battle power x Vegeta's Battle power = Vegetto's Battle power...which means we don't necessarily have to view it as such.

The caption "...but rather as tremendous as multiplication" still holds for Goku's and Vegeta's battle power merging. It just doesn't have to be a direct multiplication of their battle power as the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" statement has already been resolved as a Cartesian product(if my understanding is right).

It's pretty obvious that fusion (any fusion, not just Potara) is more resembling a multiplication rather than addition of the fusees' powers. What we're discussing is whether Vegetto, and I mean Vegetto only, is literally Goku x Vegeta in BP units (which is what SEG tells us).

It's a great idea to look into this in as simple way as possible (DB tends to not get too complicated), which is simply a multiplication. I know that Goku x Vegeta is a lot, but it's never contradicted. People realize that going by SEG, Vegetto is millions times stronger than Goku and Vegeta separately. But if you look at this from a different view, Vegetto's an endgame DB character. AT gave us something THAT impressive before ending the series. Why don't people want to believe in him being so strong?

[lash]

Is the term "battle power" only used as a name for the units that Scouters displayed? I mean, yeah, people who used Scouters were using the term BP, but is BP used for anything else, like just "power"? In the manga, its guides, etc.? While I really doubt it, I'm still asking, just to make sure that the SEG actually meant Scouter's BPs.

Vegeta used the term many times after scouter usage was stopped. It's synonymous with Ki.

For example: Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…

It's pretty obvious that fusion (any fusion, not just Potara) is more resembling a multiplication rather than addition of the fusees' powers. What we're discussing is whether Vegetto, and I mean Vegetto only, is literally Goku x Vegeta in BP units (which is what SEG tells us).

Not to sound condescending, but when did you get the impression I was discussing anything but that?

It's a great idea to look into this in as simple way as possible (DB tends to not get too complicated), which is simply a multiplication. I know that Goku x Vegeta is a lot, but it's never contradicted. People realize that going by SEG, Vegetto is millions times stronger than Goku and Vegeta separately. But if you look at this from a different view, Vegetto's an endgame DB character. AT gave us something THAT impressive before ending the series. Why don't people want to believe in him being so strong?

Because as asbereth and I mentioned, Battle Power squared can't be compared to Battle Power...which is what you'd get if one takes Goku's Battle power times Vegeta's Battle power seriously.
Looking at it in the simplest way possible doesn't really apply if it flat out doesn't make sense. I was actually an avid supporter of Goku's BP x Vegeta's BP = Vegetto BP(which is never actually stated by the picture anyway). But now realizing it... it really can't make any sense. So what do you do? You have to find the next easiest explanation for "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" to make sense.

[Bussani]

lash wasn't saying that Vegetto can't be that strong. He was talking about something completely different. It sounds closer to what I believe, I guess, with a lot of factors affecting the total fusion.

For example, if you fuse someone really brave with someone really brave, would you get someone even more absurdly brave? What if you fused someone really brave with a complete coward? Would it produce a person with average courage? How about two cowards? Would those qualities be multiplied and create the biggest coward ever? Since bravery--yuuki--is one component of ki, something this simple should be able to affect a fusion's power, and I have a feeling it really is possible to create something weaker than either individual if the conditions are right.

Or should I say wrong...?