Human power levels.

[SonGohan-san]

Well, I'll throw in the towel b/c I just don't have the energy to read a these posts at this moment. You make some good points, Gohan-kun. But there are also shades of gray in the Dragon Ball universe, if you didn't notice. Comparing the Yamucha comment to the SS2 stuff to me is comparing apples an oranges. One was obviously immensely more important to the writer and much more at the forefront concerning the story (which give things said in these instances more weight; that's just common sense to me) than which human was stronger, not to mention that Toriyama COULD have actually forgotten about Tenshinhan when that was written. Hell, he forgets lots of things. Just ask him who Tao Pai Pai is! Or even Kamesennin. I'm not necessarily saying its likely, but its possible. But you have to weigh the dialogue, which is what others have said. It's not simply that dialogue= fact or that it doesn't. There are many times lines of dialogue that are stated in DB that contradict other established premises--look at the little plothole section in EX's unreleased sections! a lot of DB is inductive reasoning. I mean, look at all the shit we analyze for chissakes. Anyways, I really can't go on...my brain is mush...I just wrote 8 pages worth of in essay on a timed history exam over the Victorian era, so I'm sure this post is shark bait. But anyways...

[TripleRach]

I feel compelled to mention two things:

1) Kuririn training with #18 is filler; he's alone in the manga. Using filler material in debates like these is unwise (and in some places, it means an automatic loss). If you think about it, Kuririn is adept enough that he could train well alone, and I'd imagine #18's cyborg-ness likely prevents her from getting much stronger than she already is.

2) The training was only one month, not two.

One month of training alone, not two months with #18.

[Gohan-kun]

"There are many times lines of dialogue that are stated in DB that contradict other established premises"

Thats my point. Dialogue never again contradicted has to hold validity.

Whether Toriyama wasn't thinking of Tenshinhan or not is an assumption, even though we see him 15 or so chapters later dodging Boo's death rays, so I doubt he neglected him.

Thanks for pointing those out Rach. I'm aware of what filler is, and it can't be used in debates of course. Perhaps he trained with her off screen?Not sure who else Kuririn would train with though. A sparring partner is definitely better than training by yourself. Thats the prime reason why Goku asked Piccolo to come train with he and Gohan. And at that point, Goku was much stronger than Piccolo, and Goku and Piccolo were much stronger than Gohan, who is also stronger than Kuririn.

Hmm, but him training with her offscreen is an assumption nontheless. But we still have the fact that Kuririn did train for a month while its an assumption as to whether or not Ten trained at all.

[James R. Cadwell]

Being able to damage to someone while they are ON-GUARD, as in, fully aware of you attacking them, means the other is greater in the Z world at least. It never has to do with speed or skill. Name another time someone weak has done damage to someone stronger than them when they are FULLY aware of it, and not caught off guard. I gurantee you, you can't. It never happens in the Z world.

Freeza was able to hit Super Saiya-jin Goku. "Android" 19 and the "semi-perfect" form of Cell both drew blood when they punched Super Saiya-jin Vegeta. Perfect Cell was able to hit "Ultra Super Saiya-jin" Trunks repeatedly by -specifically- emphasizing speed in his fighting technique since Trunks was stronger than him in that form.

Several of those examples only demonstrate that it's possible for someone weaker to injure someone stronger, but two of them do demonstrate that speed and skill are a factor in overwhelming a stronger opponent.

Its stated. We don't know what fictional characters are doing during the time we don't see them. How do you know Yamucha didn't run into Ten prior to the Tenkaichi Tournament?

How do you know that Piccolo didn't turn evil and conquer half the planet immediately after the Cell Games? Stop speculating.

Seriously though, how do you know that Yamucha -did- have any contact with Tenshinhan during the seven year period after the Cell Games? Yamucha never saw Tenshinhan -at all- during the course of the Buu Saga so -obviously- he wasn't informed enough to compare Tenshinhan and Krillin's power levels with any authority.

Uhh no. You're not thinking in the sense of the Dragonball world. Every single statement made in Dragonball which is never again contradicted is valid. We don't have to witness it for it to be valid. Going by your logic, a crapload of things would be left untrue going by your logic.

Okay, let's go over each and every one of them so I can point out your flawed logic.

1.SSJ2 Teen Gohan (Boo saga) isn't weaker than Vegeta even though its stated a million times Gohan is now the weakest of the two because of not training. There's no evidence shown to us that Gohan is actually weaker than Vegeta and Goku.

Wrong. Goku and Vegeta were making direct observations when they said that Gohan had become significantly weaker, and their comments were supported by Gohan's performance against Dabura. Vegeta was clearly stronger than Gohan based on a comparison of their effectiveness against "Fat" Buu, and Goku would be stronger than Gohan by extension since he was equally matched with Majin Vegeta.

2. Goku and Vegeta can't beat Dabura even though its stated a million times they can. We never see them fight so I guess Vegeta and Goku are liars.

Wrong. This is a another direct observation, and Vegeta and Goku were certainly qualified to say that they could beat Dabura since they were looking right at him and watching him fight with Gohan.

3. Freeza's battle power in his second form isn't 1 million, although its stated it is. There was no scouter to prove it so I guess he lies too.

Wrong again. It should be obvious to everyone that it makes perfect sense for Freeza to know his own power level. This isn't like Yamucha arbitrarily deciding that Krillin is the strongest human in the world despite not having any contact with Tenshinhan for a long period of time -- this is like a normal human knowing how tall he is or how much he weighs.

4. Its stated by Goku (and Vegeta agrees) that the both of them cannot beat Super Boo 1, UNLESS they fuse. They are liars too and its not true.

Wrong once more. This is a direct observation supported by the evidence, so it's an admissible form of dialogue. "Super" Buu was stronger than "Fat" Buu, and Goku was only equal with the latter in his Super Saiya-jin 3 form, which is essentially useless after a few minutes. It's not a big surprise that Goku didn't -think- he could beat "Super" Buu, even with Vegeta's help.

I could go on and on. My point is: if its stated, and its never again contradicted, its valid. Thats how the DB universe works.

You are misinterpreting my earlier statements about the reliability of dialogue. Dialogue -is- an acceptable form of secondary evidence when:

(a): A character is making a direct observation of events or conditions. For example: if a character looks out his window and says that it's raining, he has made a statement which can be considered admissible in a debate as valid secondary evidence, assuming that he isn't contradicted by direct evidence or another character.

(b): A character is knowledgable enough to have authority when he makes an assertion. A military expert is qualified to compare two armies to determine which is superior without -directly- observing them in combat. Yamucha was -not- qualified to conclude that Krillin is the strongest human in the world because he hadn't seen Tenshinhan in what could have potentially been seven years. Moreover, Yamucha's comment was not a "knowledgable assertion" if you look at the context -- it started as a man trying to compliment a little girl's father.

Otherwise I can easily say that Trunks also lied when he said that the Artificial Humans of his time are weaker than the ones of ours, since we don't see any evidence of this.

You would be wrong of course, since Trunks indicated that he was capable of fighting with the "artificial humans" of his universe for a short period of time, whereas he was knocked unconscious by the "artificial humans" of the alternate timeline almost immediately. Furthermore, we have no reason to suspect that Trunks was lying and he's an unimpeachable source when it comes to discussion of -his- future, so he was certainly qualified to compare the relative strengths of his 17 and 18 with those existing in the changed version of history.

Yes, and Vegeta in SSJ form deflects kikoha blast from Boo. Whats your point?

So you're implying that the difference between Tenshinhan and "Super" Buu (+ Gotenks) is the same as the difference between Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and a less powerful form of Majin Buu? That would mean that Tenshinhan is ridiculously strong and wouldn't help the position you've advocated thus far, so I'm going to assume you just didn't understand what you were saying.

Not only that but the power of the Kikoho isn't derived from the users power, rather it multiplies its power and uses the users lifeforce. If it was Ten's own power, that would mean Ten > Artificial Human 16 +Piccolo +#17+#18 etc.

Where is it stated that the "Kikoho" technique "multiplies" the power of the user? I think it's more in line to assume that the attack draws energy from the hidden potential (similar to the "Kamehameha") and lifeforce (as you stated) of the user, which would mean that it's -still- using Tenshinhan's own power -- it's just ultimately fatal.

(Could anyone with the relevant chapters of the Dragon Ball manga post the lines of dialogue concerning the "Kikoho" technique?)

Which means unless the statement is contradicted, it holds validity. I already explained this above.

Yamucha's statement had no validity to begin with since he wasn't qualified to make it, and the context doesn't imply that it was even a factual assertion.

If Toriyama had Piccolo say the above, but was later proven wrong, then what Piccolo stated is obviously false.

What if Freeza arrived on Earth without his scouter, flew to Korin's tower and then said that Korin was the most powerful warrior in the universe? Would that be valid unless it was contradicted?

FOr example, Goku states that Dabura and Cell have equal strength. Later on, after seeing Dabura fight Gohan, he says Dabura is a lot stronger than he thought. The statement of "Dabura and Cell are equal" was later contradicted by the statement "Dabura is a lot stronger than I thought" making Dabura > Cell.

Cite your source and the relevant quotes. Or if you aren't able to, could somebody else reading this who owns the manga please do so?

However, Yamucha's statement is NEVER contradicted so it holds validity. Otherwise, those four examples I used above don't hold any truth.

I'm not responsible for your misinterpretation of my argument against the admission of unsubstantiated dialogue.

He's haulted his training once before. Remember? He refuses to train in the Room of Spirit and Time, although his strength could be upped considerably. And this is BEFORE Goku and Gohan refuse to go in again, meaning there were two extra slots he could have taken, but refuses. Like I said before, if Ten did any training, it'd only be training to stay in shape. He was already severely outclassed by the Saiyans so training in order to surpass them would be ludacris.

1.): I thought Tenshinhan -did- go off to train for the Cell Games -- just not in the Room of Spirit in Time, as you said.

2.): Who says that Tenshinhan would be training specifically to surpass the Saiya-jin in power? Some people actually enjoy working out, which is the real world analogue to the type of "ki" intensive training that DBZ fighters engage in.

Anyway, your example is pretty ridiculous as we know in Dragonball, the more serious and hard the training is, the more powerful one becomes. A better example, on my part, would be one who trains with a man with a 4th degree blackbelt, compared to one who is a brown belt, but trains with a white belt (Tenshinhan being the brown belt and Chaozu being the white belt). But like I said, real life examples and DB world=no no. #18 outclasses Tenshinhan in everyway and she trained with Kuririn. Its never stated Tenshinhan trained during the seven years but its a FACT that Kuririn trained with 18.

Someone corrected your information further along in this topic, so I won't bother replying.

Like I said, its stated Kuririn > Ten. nothing ever contradicts this statement throughout the whole Boo saga and there is absoloutely NOTHING which suggest Ten > Kuririn during the Boo arc.

Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to even -make- that statement.

Hmm, the Daizenshuu seems to be refering to Ten prior to all the SSJ stuff as it wasn't around then. Since James tends to believe statement don't hold validity, that doesn't hold validity since we don't always see Ten training throughout all of DB and wondering and the like. Basically, he's saying anything stated that we don't actually see isn't factual, which is a bulk majority of Dragonball.

Misinterpretation on your part. Dialogue is valid in many situations, as I explained earlier in this post -- it's just not especially valid when somebody who's completely unqualified to comment makes a statement to a little girl.

The way I see it is that people don't want to accept that someone as goofy as Kuririn is the strongest human.

Or maybe it's because the evidence suggests that Tenshinhan is stronger.

[Neon Z]

I'm new here... anyway.... here are many quotes about the kikoho taken from the DB manga(eh... this is a translation based on the Brazilian translation of the manga).

-This is from the first Goku VS Tenshinhan fight-

-
Tenshinhan: The move that I'll use now really kill. But I don't want to kill you!! So, try to dodge it, understood?!
-

Mutenroshi(Kame senin; Master Kame... ): It's a terribly powerful attack. Much more powerful than a kamehameha. But, because of it's power, the attacker spends all his ki and can die. Even if he doesn't die, he will have his life shortened.

-

Tenshinhan: I wont use the full power. I don't want to die so soon.

-

[These quotes are from while Tenshinhan is preparing the attack]

Kuririn: his... his hands are shining...
Mutenroshi: He gathered all the ki of his body in his hands...
Goku: What... what a powerful ki...

Tenshinhan: If I use all my ki now I'll end up uncouncious.... I'll have to save some energy...

-----

Ki CAN be translated as life energy or just energy, but in the Brazilian translation it wasn't.

And about a feat that Tenshinhan from Boo Saga did that proves that he is stronger than Kuririn?

A cell jr is killed by one kick from SSJ2 Gohan, but a unguarded Tenshinhan survives a kick from behind from Super Boo(Piccolo+Gotenks) . This proves that Boo Saga Tesnhinhan > Cell Jr.

And yes, it's possible to achieve such level by training. Kuririn states in Cell Saga that... "Piccolo is so strong! And he isn't even a Super Sayan!" This is before Piccolo fused with Kami, and proves that even before that he was almost as strong as the SSJs. So... Piccolo went from weaker than base Vegeta to almost as strong as a SSJ just by training three(four?) years. If Tenshinhan trained 7 years he should be able to do get a good power boost.

[TripleRach]

FOr example, Goku states that Dabura and Cell have equal strength. Later on, after seeing Dabura fight Gohan, he says Dabura is a lot stronger than he thought. The statement of "Dabura and Cell are equal" was later contradicted by the statement "Dabura is a lot stronger than I thought" making Dabura > Cell.

Cite your source and the relevant quotes. Or if you aren't able to, could somebody else reading this who owns the manga please do so?

Chapter 450:
(Vegeta had claimed Darbura was no big deal, and Kibito only died because he was clumsy. Kaioushin asks Gokuu if this is true.)
Gokuu: Yep... Well, that wasn't even his full power... Earlier I'd thought he was a scary opponent, but... Seven years ago, there was a guy named Cell, though... He's probably around that level of strength...

Chapter 455:
(Watching the Gohan vs Darbura fight.)
Gokuu: Magic?! He's a lot stronger than we thought, ain't he?
Vegeta: Hmph. Even so, it's no one that can't be beaten. He's pitiful... He was stronger when he was a brat...
Gokuu: He really has been slacking.

Starting with the "pitiful" part, they're referring to Gohan. But yeah, Gokuu didn't exactly say "equal strength"; he had made an estimation that Darbura was "about the same strength", knowing that he hadn't quite seen Darbura's full power yet. Generally, Gohan-kun was right, though I don't think it's so clear cut and dry that Gokuu asserted Darbura was stronger than Cell.

Also, Neon Z, the Brazilian version seems to be translated very well, because it's basically the same as the Japanese version.

[Gohan-kun]

"Freeza was able to hit Super Saiya-jin Goku. "Android" 19 and the "semi-perfect" form of Cell both drew blood when they punched Super Saiya-jin Vegeta. Perfect Cell was able to hit "Ultra Super Saiya-jin" Trunks repeatedly by -specifically- emphasizing speed in his fighting technique since Trunks was stronger than him in that form. "

1. Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza were actually closer in strength than a lot of people think. He wasn't outrageously stronger than him.

2. I don't recall #19 hitting Vegeta. But when Cell did it, Vegeta purposefully let himself be hit in order to see the level of power Cell was at. We know that you only need a battle power 1,000 greater than your opponents to dominate him. This was proven when Transformed Zarbon whooped on Vegeta.

Ginyu in Goku's body never damaged Kuriri, while Kuririn did damage to him twice when he was fully aware.

"Wrong. Goku and Vegeta were making direct observations when they said that Gohan had become significantly weaker, and their comments were supported by Gohan's performance against Dabura. Vegeta was clearly stronger than Gohan based on a comparison of their effectiveness against "Fat" Buu, and Goku would be stronger than Gohan by extension since he was equally matched with Majin Vegeta. "

Bull. Vegeta was charmed when fighting Fat Boo which means he had much more power than he did when he said he was fighting Dabura. There is no evidence which suggests Vegeta prior to being charmed > Dabura besides his own statement. But according to you, statements are false because you seem to believe fictional characters lie, and Toriyama has them lie for a reason.

"You would be wrong of course, since Trunks indicated that he was capable of fighting with the "artificial humans" of his universe for a short period of time, whereas he was knocked unconscious by the "artificial humans" of the alternate timeline almost immediately. "

Uhh, am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this post? You criticised me for assuming Yamucha met up with Tenshinhan, but you're going on assuming Trunks was capable of fighting with the artificial humans. HE STATES SO. We NEVER see him hold his own against them besides a fillerous special. So therefore, Trunks' statement is invalid by your logic.

"So you're implying that the difference between Tenshinhan and "Super" Buu (+ Gotenks) is the same as the difference between Super Saiya-jin Vegeta and a less powerful form of Majin Buu?"

No. As evidence to support Ten > Kuririn, you said Ten knocked away Boo's blast. This doesn't prove anything, otherwise that'd mean Ten > Gohan since Gohan didn't knock it away. Vegeta knocked away Kid Boo's blast but Kid Boo > Vegeta.

"Yamucha's statement had no validity to begin with since he wasn't qualified to make it, and the context doesn't imply that it was even a factual assertion."

Right, so Toriyama had him state he was the strongest among earthlings for no reason? Toriyama lies right?

"What if Freeza arrived on Earth without his scouter, flew to Korin's tower and then said that Korin was the most powerful warrior in the universe? Would that be valid unless it was contradicted? "

Yes. If something is stated, and nothing contradicts it again, its factual. If Freeza flew to Karin's and said he was the most powerful warrior, and Karin later fought and people realized he was weak, Freeza's statement is false.

"Cite your source and the relevant quotes. Or if you aren't able to, could somebody else reading this who owns the manga please do so? "

Manga.

".): I thought Tenshinhan -did- go off to train for the Cell Games -- just not in the Room of Spirit in Time, as you said."

No. He states Cell isn't an opponent he could stand up against. Why would he train if he knows he's worthless at the tournament? And plus, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo only used the room for 3 days (1 day each). That means Ten had 6 other days he could have used the Room which would have not interfered with the Saiyans training. He doesn't. Why would he give up training in such a room to spar with Chaozu in the Outer Realm? Goku states they all have room to train, although statements aren't valid in your opinion.

"Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to even -make- that statement."

Why wouldn't he be? Give me a reason why Toriyama didn't cut off Yamucha's statement at the "He's the strongest guy in the world" but instead, extended it to having him murmur to himself "Strongest among earthlings anyway."

"Or maybe it's because the evidence suggests that Tenshinhan is stronger."

WHERE?!

"And about a feat that Tenshinhan from Boo Saga did that proves that he is stronger than Kuririn?

A cell jr is killed by one kick from SSJ2 Gohan, but a unguarded Tenshinhan survives a kick from behind from Super Boo(Piccolo+Gotenks) . This proves that Boo Saga Tesnhinhan > Cell Jr."

1. This proves nothing since we don't see the result of Super Boo 2 kicking Kuririn. How do you know Kuririn wouldn't have survived?

2. Characters can control the power the exert in any kind of attack. How do you know Super Boo 2 used all his power into that kick?

"Kuririn states in Cell Saga that... "Piccolo is so strong! And he isn't even a Super Sayan!" This is before Piccolo fused with Kami, and proves that even before that he was almost as strong as the SSJs. So... Piccolo went from weaker than base Vegeta to almost as strong as a SSJ just by training three(four?) years. If Tenshinhan trained 7 years he should be able to do get a good power boost."

1. Piccolo had fused with Nail which brought him higher than Freeza's second form, so he was already powered up greatly.

2. Piccolo is a warrior-type Namekian.

3. No where is it stated/hinted that he trained for 7 years.

I have more for you to "disprove" by the way:

1. Goku states after waking up from the heart virus that he can't do anything against the Artificial Humans 17 and 18. Goku has never seen them before, nor can he feel their ki since they don't expel any, and he was unconcious when Vegeta came to the battlefield. So I guess Goku is a liar there.

2. Its stated that the Kienzan can cut through anything. (Note: Any scene of the Kienzan failing is filler). So did Toriyama lie once more?

3. Its stated that badguys have their spirits cleansed and become new lifeforms once they die. We never see proof of this so I guess thats also false.

4. Piccolo states SSJ Goku on Namek > SSJ Goku on Earth. There's no proof of this so I guess these people lie.

I'll have more later too. My point is, if its stated, never contradicted, its fact. Please answer me why Toriyama wouldn't have Yamucha stop talking after saying "Not to worry. Your dad is the strongest guy in the world." Why would Toriyama have him continue that subject after she turns away and say "Among humans anyway." It doesn't make sense for him to have him say that, knowing it were false. Thats out of the creators mouth, into a fictional chracters mouth. It holds validity whether you wanna accept it or not. Otherwise, statements with no proof aren't valid. Remember, this is the Dragonball World, not real life. The DB world defies the natural laws of physics as is.

And about the Kikoho thing:

"But, because of it's power,"

That proves my point that the attack isn't based on Tenshinhan's power alone. Because if that were true, as I said before, Tenshinhan > Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, #16, #17, #18 etc.

About Cell and Dabura, if Goku says they are probably equal, but then later says he's a lot stronger than he thought, that means Dabura > Cell.

[Neon Z]

"1. This proves nothing since we don't see the result of Super Boo 2 kicking Kuririn. How do you know Kuririn wouldn't have survived?"

1- We know that Cell jr. > Kuririn. We know that Gohan kills a Cell jr. with one kick. Therefore Gohan kills Kuririn with one kick. Super Boo 2 is MUCH stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. But his kick doesn't kill Tenshinhan.

"2. Characters can control the power the exert in any kind of attack. How do you know Super Boo 2 used all his power into that kick?"

Because... there's nothing hintting that he did that? You know... If I started to make baseless asumptions I could prove that FP Goku SSJ 3 > Chou Gohan.

"1. Piccolo had fused with Nail which brought him higher than Freeza's second form, so he was already powered up greatly.

2. Piccolo is a warrior-type Namekian."

Yes, I know. But he was being compared to Super Sayans who are MUCH stronger than he was in Freeza Saga, this means that he got a huge power up just by training, Kuririn even wonders what kind of training Piccolo did.

It is never stated anywhere that Nameks get more from training than humans. In fact, from what we see between the 22 and 23 Budokais it seems that, even though Piccolo was way stronger than the humans, the gap between him and the humans had gotten smaller, and this means that humans get more from training than Warrior Nameks.

"2. Its stated that the Kienzan can cut through anything."

This was never stated... But it IS shown.

"4. Piccolo states SSJ Goku on Namek > SSJ Goku on Earth. There's no proof of this so I guess these people lie."

Piccolo NEVER stated this. I don't have the Brazilian manga, but I have an fan translation with me, and here he only mentions that Goku is weaker than before. I'll check Tenshinhan's quote about his training before Cell...

"But, because of it's power,"

That proves my point that the attack isn't based on Tenshinhan's power alone. Because if that were true, as I said before, Tenshinhan > Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, #16, #17, #18 etc.

But you forget to mention that it's power comes from Tenshinhan's ki. It is a strong attack, but it's strengh comes from his ki. Also, notice that that doesn't mean that Cell Saga Tenshinhan > Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, #16, #17, #18 etc. It means that Tenshinhan can fire four blasts which are stronger than anything those people can make and fall uncounscious.

But remember that it's still his ki, and... points to Nappa's fight... Using the kikoho(which can't be that much worse than the shin kikoho, Goku even calls that new attack only kikoho) with all his ki in one blast Tenshinhan only stops Nappa's movement, and dies. This is a worse result than the one from the blasts against Cell and he used all his ki in one blast, instead of few blasts.

[James R. Cadwell]

1. Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza were actually closer in strength than a lot of people think. He wasn't outrageously stronger than him.

It depends. If you only accept the manga as canon and don't permit references from other official Dragon Ball sources, then we don't -know- how large the difference was. All we can be certain of is that Goku was strong enough to have a significant advantage.

If you consider the official power levels admissible in a debate, then Freeza had 80% of Super Saiya-jin Goku's power rating and -potentially- 80% of his actual power if the "power level" system is linear. Goku and Piccolo had about 40% of Radditz's power and he completely outclassed them. Radditz was able to block energy attacks from Goku that had closer to 60% of Radditz's total combat power.

2. I don't recall #19 hitting Vegeta. But when Cell did it, Vegeta purposefully let himself be hit in order to see the level of power Cell was at.

Yeah, and he drew blood (at least in the anime), so it's not impossible to hurt someone -significantly- stronger than you. So if Ginyu was clumsy and inefficient with his blocking thanks to the body transfer, it would easily be possible for Krillin to hit and injure him.

We know that you only need a battle power 1,000 greater than your opponents to dominate him. This was proven when Transformed Zarbon whooped on Vegeta.

So if "Fat" Buu absorbed Radditz, he would have a huge advantage over Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? It's more like "you can dominate your opponent if you're proportionately stronger than him by a certain margin."

Ginyu in Goku's body never damaged Kuriri, while Kuririn did damage to him twice when he was fully aware.

Which just means that Ginyu was having difficulty using Goku's body, not that Ginyu (in Goku's body) had a power level lower than Krillin's.

BTW, I noticed that you conveniently ignored "Ultimate/Ultra Super Saiya-jin" Trunks vs. Perfect Cell, which disproves your assertion that "no character was ever able to injure someone stronger than them" and that "it never has to do with speed or skill".

Bull. Vegeta was charmed when fighting Fat Boo which means he had much more power than he did when he said he was fighting Dabura. There is no evidence which suggests Vegeta prior to being charmed > Dabura besides his own statement. But according to you, statements are false because you seem to believe fictional characters lie, and Toriyama has them lie for a reason.

Okay, look -- you've been beating on this -ridiculous- strawman of my argument for the past two posts and it's getting annoying. I'm going to correct you once more and hopefully you'll stop indulging in your fallacious interpretation of my assertion after this -final- explanation.

Your twisted version of what I was saying: "All Dragon Ball characters are LYING when they say anything, and Toriyama is making them LIE!" (???)

The reality: Dialogue is only reliable when it's a direct observation or an assertion made by someone qualified to comment on the situation.

Vegeta was looking -right- at Dabura when he said that he could have beaten him, so obviously he was in a position to make that assertion. Furthermore, we have confirmation on that from Goku, who was -also- watching Dabura.

Uhh, am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy in this post? You criticised me for assuming Yamucha met up with Tenshinhan, but you're going on assuming Trunks was capable of fighting with the artificial humans. HE STATES SO. We NEVER see him hold his own against them besides a fillerous special. So therefore, Trunks' statement is invalid by your logic.

Wrong. Trunks has authority to comment on the strength of the "artificial humans" because he's -definitely- encountered them directly so he was able to gauge their abilities. (didn't the manga show this in a flashback?)
Since Trunks also made the comments in question to other adults in a serious moment, I have no reason to doubt him.

Let's go over this carefully so there's no ambiguity:

Trunks is usually a comparatively serious person.
Trunks definitely encountered the androids and would have direct knowledge of their power.
Trunks said this to other adults.
Trunks is not an impeachable source.
Trunks has cool hair.


Yamucha is a doofus.
Yamucha hasn't seen Tenshinhan in seven years.
Yamucha may not have even seen -Krillin- use his full strength in years.
Yamucha was talking to a little girl when he first brought the topic up.
Yamucha is an easily impeachable source with those facts considered.
Yamucha has stupid hair.

No. As evidence to support Ten > Kuririn, you said Ten knocked away Boo's blast. This doesn't prove anything, otherwise that'd mean Ten > Gohan since Gohan didn't knock it away. Vegeta knocked away Kid Boo's blast but Kid Boo > Vegeta.

Wasn't Gohan laying on the ground, seriously injured?

Right, so Toriyama had him state he was the strongest among earthlings for no reason? Toriyama lies right?

Yes, I can imagine a situation where Toriyama might decide to have one of his characters exaggerate reality in order to compliment a little girl's father. Are you having difficulty grasping the concept of a character not being entirely truthful in every single situation?

BTW, since you -aren't- Akira Toriyama and have no way of knowing what his intention was when he wrote that scene, please stop implying that your interpretation is undisputedly accurate.

Yes. If something is stated, and nothing contradicts it again, its factual. If Freeza flew to Karin's and said he was the most powerful warrior, and Karin later fought and people realized he was weak, Freeza's statement is false.

But Freeza didn't have a scouter when he said that in my imaginary scenario, so he wouldn't have any method of determining Karin's battle power. In other words, he -wasn't qualified- to make that statement. Do you understand this simple concept? "Argumentum ad Toriyama's Intention" doesn't establish the validity of any particular line of -unsupported- dialogue since none of us are Akira Toriyama, and -consequentially-, none of us know what his thoughts were when he wrote -any- scene.

No. He states Cell isn't an opponent he could stand up against. Why would he train if he knows he's worthless at the tournament? And plus, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo only used the room for 3 days (1 day each). That means Ten had 6 other days he could have used the Room which would have not interfered with the Saiyans training. He doesn't. Why would he give up training in such a room to spar with Chaozu in the Outer Realm?

So Tenshinhan realized that any intensive training to fight -Cell- would be useless. How does that lead you to the conclusion that Tenshinhan didn't spend any time training during the seven year interim between the Cell Games and the Buu Saga? It would be useless for a tiny 5'2", 120 pound nerd to spend an entire year of his time training to outlift Mr. Universe at the next professional bodybuilding competition, too -- that wouldn't mean that the nerd couldn't lift weights in his spare time as a sport. (if you have something against this perfectly valid real world analogy, please feel free to substitute the names with Dragon Ball characters.)

Goku states they all have room to train, although statements aren't valid in your opinion.

Strawman. Stop with the logical fallacies.

Why wouldn't he be?

Because Yamucha hadn't seen Tenshinhan since the Cell Games and consequentially wouldn't know if Tenshinhan was stronger -or- weaker than Krillin. He hadn't seen Kaio-sama in years, either, so if he said "Hey, Krillin's daughter -- Kaio-Sama wears pink shoes with green spots now!" it wouldn't be a valid statement for exactly the same reason.

WHERE?!

"Shin Kikoho", precedent, and "Shin Kikoho" once again. The only thing supporting -your- argument is a coward's comment to his friend's little girl. The poster you replied to below also offered some evidence of his own.

1. This proves nothing since we don't see the result of Super Boo 2 kicking Kuririn. How do you know Kuririn wouldn't have survived?

So Krillin is suddenly capable of surviving a blow from "Super" Buu, despite the fact that he didn't train for seven years? There's no reason to assume that Krillin is amazingly more powerful than he was at the end of the Cell Saga, but since Tenshinhan -definitely- had the opportunity to train and we received no confirmation either way, it's not crazy to speculate that he might have become a lot more durable.

2. Characters can control the power the exert in any kind of attack. How do you know Super Boo 2 used all his power into that kick?

So "Super" Buu thought to himself "Hey, normally I just whack people with my full strength since I'm evil with a slightly below average IQ, but I'm only going to hit -this- guy lightly since he's such an attractive man."

1. Goku states after waking up from the heart virus that he can't do anything against the Artificial Humans 17 and 18. Goku has never seen them before, nor can he feel their ki since they don't expel any, and he was unconcious when Vegeta came to the battlefield. So I guess Goku is a liar there.

Goku is psychic, remember? Didn't he also see "artificial humans" 17 and 18 in his dreams while he was stricken with the heart virus?

2. Its stated that the Kienzan can cut through anything. (Note: Any scene of the Kienzan failing is filler). So did Toriyama lie once more?

Stop assuming that you understand all of Toriyama's motivations when he makes a statement about a character or an attack -- In the future I'm not going to bother replying to anything you post containing that fallacy. That being said, -yes-, I don't see why Toriyama couldn't choose to have one of his -characters- lie or inadvertantly distort reality, and -yes- whoever said that may have indeed been incorrect, otherwise the "Kienzan" would always be the attack of choice. (it's also a -logical fallacy- to assume that the Kienzan can cut through -anything- since that's an example of the "no limits" mindset, which is flagrantly fallacious. Did the character who said that personally observe the Kienzan cutting through every substance in the universe and every individual in history, no matter how powerful?)

3. Its stated that badguys have their spirits cleansed and become new lifeforms once they die. We never see proof of this so I guess thats also false.

If a god or someone else with specific knowledge of the reincarnation process made that statement, then it's perfectly valid. I don't see why it wouldn't be, and the fact that you use this as an example indicates that you -still- don't understand my original assertion.

4. Piccolo states SSJ Goku on Namek > SSJ Goku on Earth. There's no proof of this so I guess these people lie.

When? Cite your source (manga chapter?) and the relevant dialogue.

Please answer me why Toriyama wouldn't have Yamucha stop talking after saying "Not to worry. Your dad is the strongest guy in the world." Why would Toriyama have him continue that subject after she turns away and say "Among humans anyway." It doesn't make sense for him to have him say that, knowing it were false. Thats out of the creators mouth, into a fictional chracters mouth. It holds validity whether you wanna accept it or not. Otherwise, statements with no proof aren't valid. Remember, this is the Dragonball World, not real life.

a.) Neither of us can speculate on Toriyama's intentions when he wrote that scene. We can have a -personal- interpretation of those lines of dialogue, and we can check to see whether or not they are supported or contradicted by other evidence.

b.) Why do you think it's so outrageous that Toriyama might have Yamucha lie to bolster a little girl's confidence in her father's ability to avoid being slaughtered?

The DB world defies the natural laws of physics as is.

Usually only when "ki" is concerned. Gravity, light, etc all seem to work just fine. Just because the DB universe violates -some- laws of physics in -certain- areas doesn't mean that we should throw them all out.

And about the Kikoho thing:

"But, because of it's power,"

That proves my point that the attack isn't based on Tenshinhan's power alone. Because if that were true, as I said before, Tenshinhan > Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, #16, #17, #18 etc.

I believe that another poster (thanks, BTW) provided the dialogue concerning the metaphysics behind the "Kikoho", and it didn't imply a "multiplication" of Tenshinhan's power. It was pretty clear that the "Kikoho" functions by siphoning away the user's "ki" (lifeforce, superfluous energy, whatever) -- that seems like Tenshinhan's own power to me. If I can punch a hole through six inches of steel and as a consequence I shorten my lifespan by a few years and fracture some bones, it's -still- my own strength, and it -still- makes me stronger than someone who can't pull that off.

About Cell and Dabura, if Goku says they are probably equal, but then later says he's a lot stronger than he thought, that means Dabura > Cell.

TripleRach posted:
"Chapter 455:
(Watching the Gohan vs Darbura fight.)
Gokuu: Magic?! He's a lot stronger than we thought, ain't he?
Vegeta: Hmph. Even so, it's no one that can't be beaten. He's pitiful... He was stronger when he was a brat...
Gokuu: He really has been slacking."

Based on the context, I would interpret Goku's comment to mean that Dabura's ability to use magic makes him a stronger opponent.

[James R. Cadwell]

Yes, I know. But he was being compared to Super Sayans who are MUCH stronger than he was in Freeza Saga, this means that he got a huge power up just by training, Kuririn even wonders what kind of training Piccolo did.

It is never stated anywhere that Nameks get more from training than humans. In fact, from what we see between the 22 and 23 Budokais it seems that, even though Piccolo was way stronger than the humans, the gap between him and the humans had gotten smaller, and this means that humans get more from training than Warrior Nameks.

Can somebody post the power levels for Piccolo and all of the humans from just after (or during, if they participated) the battle with Radditz and the fight with Nappa and the Saibamen? We can use those to calculate the "combat power" increase each character had during their year of training.

[Gohan-kun]

"1- We know that Cell jr. > Kuririn. We know that Gohan kills a Cell jr. with one kick. Therefore Gohan kills Kuririn with one kick. Super Boo 2 is MUCH stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. But his kick doesn't kill Tenshinhan. "

How do you know Cell Jr > Kuririn during the Boo saga? Where is it stated? No where.

"Because... there's nothing hintting that he did that? You know... If I started to make baseless asumptions I could prove that FP Goku SSJ 3 > Chou Gohan. "

Baseless assumptions just like you're own? Its a fact that characters can control how strong their attacks are. There's no reason Boo would need to exert a lot of power to bring down someone like Tenshinhan. And like I said before, you DON'T know what would happen if Kuririn were kicked by Super Boo 2. Take your own advice.

"This was never stated... But it IS shown."

Actually, I'm quite certain its stated.

"But you forget to mention that it's power comes from Tenshinhan's ki. It is a strong attack, but it's strengh comes from his ki. Also, notice that that doesn't mean that Cell Saga Tenshinhan > Goku, Gohan, Piccolo, #16, #17, #18 etc. It means that Tenshinhan can fire four blasts which are stronger than anything those people can make and fall uncounscious."

Wow. From your quote, Muten Roshi says "Because of ITS power" not because of Tenshinhan's. That means the attack in itself and not Tenshinhan's own power. If Kuririn had the attack, the same result would have happened to Cell.

"Using the kikoho(which can't be that much worse than the shin kikoho, Goku even calls that new attack only kikoho)"

Using the Kikoho (Shin) anyway consecutively proves it has an effect on the person's life. Ten used it twice which was why he wasn't exhausted in the Boo saga.

"Yeah, and he drew blood (at least in the anime), so it's not impossible to hurt someone -significantly- stronger than you."

Manga=canon. I don't recall any blood in the manga. So that throws that argument out the window.

"So if "Fat" Buu absorbed Radditz, he would have a huge advantage over Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? It's more like "you can dominate your opponent if you're proportionately stronger than him by a certain margin." "

Not really, as its proven that if someone is significantly weaker than you, and you absorb/fuse with them, you'll become weaker yourself. Goku states so.

"Which just means that Ginyu was having difficulty using Goku's body, not that Ginyu (in Goku's body) had a power level lower than Krillin's."

No, it means Ginyu had trouble using ki in order to power Goku (Ginyu) up, which is EXACTLY what Goku states.

"BTW, I noticed that you conveniently ignored "Ultimate/Ultra Super Saiya-jin" Trunks vs. Perfect Cell, which disproves your assertion that "no character was ever able to injure someone stronger than them" and that "it never has to do with speed or skill". "

Not really. I didn't feel any need to mention it. Trunks' strength overall is not greater than Cell's. Ultra Super Saiyan only bulkes one up to make their punches more effective. It doesn't increase their overall strength which is why Cell could easily do damage to him.

"The reality: Dialogue is only reliable when it's a direct observation or an assertion made by someone qualified to comment on the situation. "

Apparently thats what you think. In the DB world, whats stated, and not contradicted, is factual.

"Vegeta was looking -right- at Dabura when he said that he could have beaten him, so obviously he was in a position to make that assertion. Furthermore, we have confirmation on that from Goku, who was -also- watching Dabura."

And how do you know he's speaking the truth? Goku doesn't agree with him that Vegeta can take him either. I just recall Goku saying he's not a terrible foe.

"Yamucha hasn't seen Tenshinhan in seven years."

How do you know that?

"Wasn't Gohan laying on the ground, seriously injured?"

Nope.

"Yes, I can imagine a situation where Toriyama might decide to have one of his characters exaggerate reality in order to compliment a little girl's father."

My goodness, when will you understand? MARRON-CHAN DID NOT HEAR YAMUCHA'S SECOND COMMENT. He was obviously saying Kuririn is the strongest in the world in order to comfort her. Then, when she's not looking, in order to comfort himself, he says "Strongest among earthlings anyway." For the last time, the "Strongest among earthlings" wasn't directed to her.

"BTW, since you -aren't- Akira Toriyama and have no way of knowing what his intention was when he wrote that scene, please stop implying that your interpretation is undisputedly accurate."

Unless Toriyama's intention is to have his characters lie, what he had Yamucha say holds validity.

"But Freeza didn't have a scouter when he said that in my imaginary scenario, so he wouldn't have any method of determining Karin's battle power. In other words, he -wasn't qualified- to make that statement. Do you understand this simple concept?"

Right. Toriyama wouldn't have Freeza say something like that in any case. Besides, it'd be contradicted. Fact is, Yamucha's statement is never contradicted throughout the whole Boo saga.

"It would be useless for a tiny 5'2", 120 pound nerd to spend an entire year of his time training to outlift Mr. Universe at the next professional bodybuilding competition, too -- that wouldn't mean that the nerd couldn't lift weights in his spare time as a sport. (if you have something against this perfectly valid real world analogy, please feel free to substitute the names with Dragon Ball characters.) "

Which is why I said if Ten did any training at all, it wouldn't be in order to obtain severe new power, rather, just to keep in shape.

"Because Yamucha hadn't seen Tenshinhan since the Cell Games and consequentially wouldn't know if Tenshinhan was stronger -or- weaker than Krillin."

How do you know that? We don't physically see Vegeta go SSJ2 prior to being charmed, but we know he does.

"The only thing supporting -your- argument is a coward's comment to his friend's little girl."

Funny, his second comment wasn't even to the girl, rather to comfort himself.

"So Krillin is suddenly capable of surviving a blow from "Super" Buu, despite the fact that he didn't train for seven years?"

He trained in light of the Tenkaichi Tournament. And how do you know how strong Kuririn was during the Cell Games? You don't know whether or not Kuririn > Ten or vice versa. Everything you and Neon have posted thus far is ASSUMPTION. I'm using a direct statement made by Yamucha, who you think is lying or whatever.

"So "Super" Buu thought to himself "Hey, normally I just whack people with my full strength since I'm evil with a slightly below average IQ, but I'm only going to hit -this- guy lightly since he's such an attractive man." "

Uhh, its obvious Super Boo doesn't use his full strength all the time. Otherwise, SSJ Gotenks wouldn't have had a chance to go SSJ3. There's no need to use full force on a much weaker enemy.

By the way Neon, Fat Boo was able to bring Vegeta as SSJ2 Majin unconscious, but Kid Boo couldn't knock Vegeta unconscious even in base form. Does this mean Fat Boo > Kid Boo now?

"Goku is psychic, remember? Didn't he also see "artificial humans" 17 and 18 in his dreams while he was stricken with the heart virus? "

No, he states he could hear what was going on in his dreams. He never sees them. That scene where he dreams of them is filler. So, please address that point. Goku had never seen the Artificial Humans. Beisdes that, they have no ki so he couldn't tell how strong they were. Yet, he states he can't do anything against them. I guess Goku is just a dumb hick and doesn't qualify.

By the way, here's another: Its stated that each of the Kaioshin's could beat Freeza in one blow. But Kaioshin has never seen Freeza before. So he doesn't qualify to make that statement either right? Which means Kaioshin might not even be close to Freeza's strength.

"Did the character who said that personally observe the Kienzan cutting through every substance in the universe and every individual in history, no matter how powerful?) "

Well, I think the guy who created the attack would know how strong it is. If not, it was Muten Roshi who said it. Muten Roshi knows of Ten's attack so you can't say he wouldn't know of Kuririn's either.

"b.) Why do you think it's so outrageous that Toriyama might have Yamucha lie to bolster a little girl's confidence in her father's ability to avoid being slaughtered?"

Perhaps because he didn't say it to the girl?

"Based on the context, I would interpret Goku's comment to mean that Dabura's ability to use magic makes him a stronger opponent."

Assumption. All thats stated is that he is stronger than they originally thought. And what they originally thought was they were close in power, making Dabura > Cell.

Like I've said before, its stated by Yamucha, who you consider a doofus, that Kuririn is the strongest human. You disagree because you say a fictional character isn't qualified to say something of that sort. Toriyama had him state that for a reason. Otherwise he would have him not say it in the first place! This is ridiculous.

"Can somebody post the power levels for Piccolo and all of the humans from just after (or during, if they participated) the battle with Radditz and the fight with Nappa and the Saibamen? We can use those to calculate the "combat power" increase each character had during their year of training."

Make sure they are strictly from the Manga, as daizenshuu's don't count.

[James R. Cadwell]

Baseless assumptions just like you're own? Its a fact that characters can control how strong their attacks are. There's no reason Boo would need to exert a lot of power to bring down someone like Tenshinhan. And like I said before, you DON'T know what would happen if Kuririn were kicked by Super Boo 2. Take your own advice.

Implying that "Super" Buu didn't use his full strength when he hit Tenshinhan -is- a "baseless assumption". Why wouldn't he?

Wow. From your quote, Muten Roshi says "Because of ITS power" not because of Tenshinhan's. That means the attack in itself and not Tenshinhan's own power. If Kuririn had the attack, the same result would have happened to Cell.

Semantics. The implication is that the attack is powerful because it draws more "ki" from the user than other directed energy techniques. You're not performing particularly well in this argument and apparently your only recourse is to pedantically nitpick the wording of the relevant dialogue.

Manga=canon. I don't recall any blood in the manga. So that throws that argument out the window.

Can someone who owns the manga verify this?

Not really, as its proven that if someone is significantly weaker than you, and you absorb/fuse with them, you'll become weaker yourself. Goku states so.

So Majin Buu weakened himself by absorbing Piccolo? BTW, you ignored the crux of my reply.

Not really. I didn't feel any need to mention it. Trunks' strength overall is not greater than Cell's. Ultra Super Saiyan only bulkes one up to make their punches more effective.

LMAO. Okay, so in other words, the transformation made Trunks's punches stronger.

It doesn't increase their overall strength which is why Cell could easily do damage to him.

Trunks and Vegeta were relatively equal in their less-powerful Super Saiya-jin forms. Perfect Cell was essentially uneffected by Super Saiya-jin Vegeta's physical attacks and Cell defeated him almost effortlessly. "Ultimate/Ultra Super Saiya-jin Trunks", however, was significantly stronger than he was as a "second stage" Super Saiya-jin and had a clear advantage in his fight with Perfect Cell. He was also able to absorb blows from Cell without suffering the kind of injury that Vegeta did. How is "Ultimate/Ultra Super Saiya-jin" Trunks -not- much more powerful than a "second stage" Super Saiya-jin?

Apparently thats what you think. In the DB world, whats stated, and not contradicted, is factual.

You are not Akira Toriyama. Despite your presumptions, you don't dictate the rules of the Dragon Ball universe.

And how do you know he's speaking the truth? Goku doesn't agree with him that Vegeta can take him either. I just recall Goku saying he's not a terrible foe.

Vegeta is a credible source. I'm not going to explain -why-, because I've already defined a "credible source" several times. Please pay more attention.

How do you know that?

It was implied that Tenshinhan had no interest in further contact with the others at the end of the Cell Games, and there's no evidence that Yamucha ever went to have tea or see a movie with Tenshinhan in the seven year interim. Do you have something that suggests otherwise?

Nope.

Immaterial. Gohan didn't have a chance to deflect or avoid Majin Buu's attack because -Tenshinhan- did.

My goodness, when will you understand? MARRON-CHAN DID NOT HEAR YAMUCHA'S SECOND COMMENT. He was obviously saying Kuririn is the strongest in the world in order to comfort her. Then, when she's not looking, in order to comfort himself, he says "Strongest among earthlings anyway." For the last time, the "Strongest among earthlings" wasn't directed to her.

Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to make that assertion.

Unless Toriyama's intention is to have his characters lie, what he had Yamucha say holds validity.

"Argumentum ad Toriyama's Intention" is not a valid debate technique because you are not Akira Toriyama, and neither am I. If you're just going to continue repeating the same logically-flawed arguments ad nauseam, I don't see a reason to reply to them.

Right. Toriyama wouldn't have Freeza say something like that in any case. Besides, it'd be contradicted. Fact is, Yamucha's statement is never contradicted throughout the whole Boo saga.

Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to make that assertion.

Which is why I said if Ten did any training at all, it wouldn't be in order to obtain severe new power, rather, just to keep in shape.

Which would still offer more benefits than not training at all, like Krillin.

How do you know that? We don't physically see Vegeta go SSJ2 prior to being charmed, but we know he does.

How do we know that?

Funny, his second comment wasn't even to the girl, rather to comfort himself.

Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to make that assertion.

He trained in light of the Tenkaichi Tournament. And how do you know how strong Kuririn was during the Cell Games?

Not strong enough to blast "semi-perfect" Cell backwards with one of his energy attacks.

You don't know whether or not Kuririn > Ten or vice versa. Everything you and Neon have posted thus far is ASSUMPTION. I'm using a direct statement made by Yamucha, who you think is lying or whatever.

Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to make that assertion.

Uhh, its obvious Super Boo doesn't use his full strength all the time. Otherwise, SSJ Gotenks wouldn't have had a chance to go SSJ3. There's no need to use full force on a much weaker enemy.

That's not evidence that "Super" Buu doesn't use his full strength on opponents who are weaker than him. All that tells us is that Super Saiya-jin Gotenks is durable enough not to be killed by a couple of punches from Majin Buu.

By the way Neon, Fat Boo was able to bring Vegeta as SSJ2 Majin unconscious, but Kid Boo couldn't knock Vegeta unconscious even in base form. Does this mean Fat Boo > Kid Boo now?

It means that "Kid" Buu never sat on Vegeta and punched him repeatedly after effectively crippling him and breaking his arm with a powerful energy attack.

No, he states he could hear what was going on in his dreams. He never sees them. That scene where he dreams of them is filler. So, please address that point. Goku had never seen the Artificial Humans. Beisdes that, they have no ki so he couldn't tell how strong they were. Yet, he states he can't do anything against them. I guess Goku is just a dumb hick and doesn't qualify.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. That there's a plot hole in that part of the Cell Saga? The only way I can think to reconcile that while maintaining suspension of disbelief is to cite Goku's mild psychic abilities, unless he knew that Vegeta and Trunks both lost to the "artificial humans". If -was- aware that Vegeta and Trunks both lost in their Super Saiya-jin forms, it's not exactly a wild leap of logic to assume that he wouldn't be able to win, either.

By the way, here's another: Its stated that each of the Kaioshin's could beat Freeza in one blow. But Kaioshin has never seen Freeza before. So he doesn't qualify to make that statement either right? Which means Kaioshin might not even be close to Freeza's strength.

Provide the quote.

Well, I think the guy who created the attack would know how strong it is. If not, it was Muten Roshi who said it. Muten Roshi knows of Ten's attack so you can't say he wouldn't know of Kuririn's either.

When does he state this? Provide the quote and cite the manga chapter.

Perhaps because he didn't say it to the girl?

Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to make that assertion.

Assumption. All thats stated is that he is stronger than they originally thought. And what they originally thought was they were close in power, making Dabura > Cell.

Only if you have difficulty recognizing ambiguities in dialogue. (which is, frankly, something you've demonstrated repeatedly.)

Chapter 450:
(Vegeta had claimed Darbura was no big deal, and Kibito only died because he was clumsy. Kaioushin asks Gokuu if this is true.)
Gokuu: Yep... Well, that wasn't even his full power... Earlier I'd thought he was a scary opponent, but... Seven years ago, there was a guy named Cell, though... He's probably around that level of strength...

Chapter 455:
(Watching the Gohan vs Darbura fight.)
Gokuu: Magic?! He's a lot stronger than we thought, ain't he?
Vegeta: Hmph. Even so, it's no one that can't be beaten. He's pitiful... He was stronger when he was a brat...
Gokuu: He really has been slacking.

Goku's original statement where he compares Dabura to Cell is -vague- and imprecise. The implication is that Dabura is -roughly- equivalent to Cell or at least on his -level- of power. Super Saiya-jin Goku's ability to hit and survive fighting with Cell probably qualifies him as being on Cell's "level of power". Goku is not unambiguously stating that Dabura is definitely exactly equal to Cell. Therefore, Goku's -second- relevant comment doesn't necessarily suggest that Dabura is stronger than Cell. It could just mean that Goku mentally upgraded Cell from "probably around that level of strength" to "definitely around that level of strength".

Secondly, the fact that Goku apparently observes Dabura performing a magical technique immediately before revising his evaluation is -not- inconsequential. Being able to use magic in addition to having a high power level would definitely make someone a stronger opponent.

Like I've said before, its stated by Yamucha, who you consider a doofus, that Kuririn is the strongest human. You disagree because you say a fictional character isn't qualified to say something of that sort.

Yes, Akira Toriyama's character, Yamucha, is not qualified to compare Tenshinhan and Krillin based on the evidence he provided in the manga.

Toriyama had him state that for a reason. Otherwise he would have him not say it in the first place! This is ridiculous.

You are not Akira Toriyama. You don't know the reasoning behind that scene. You might be too simple-minded to comprehend the concept of an author endowing his characters with their own distinct personalities, thoughts and feelings, but Akira Toriyama was -not- and was perfectly capable of creating characters who could express their own opinions -- even erroneous opinions. You seem to be assuming that every single character in Dragon Ball is always 100% truthful and their comments always exactly reflect the author's personal beliefs. Toriyama was a decent storywriter and you're giving him far too little credit.

[Gohan-kun]

"Implying that "Super" Buu didn't use his full strength when he hit Tenshinhan -is- a "baseless assumption". Why wouldn't he?"

Already explained why.

"The implication is that the attack is powerful because it draws more "ki" from the user than other directed energy techniques. You're not performing particularly well in this argument and apparently your only recourse is to pedantically nitpick the wording of the relevant dialogue. "

My point I'm trying to make is that the Kikoho isn't an accurate source to judge Tenshinhan's strength because it'd have the same affect had Kuririn used it.

"So Majin Buu weakened himself by absorbing Piccolo? BTW, you ignored the crux of my reply."

Boo's absorption technique is different from fusion is it not?

"LMAO. Okay, so in other words, the transformation made Trunks's punches stronger."

In other words, he transformed to powerup, which does nothing as stated by Cell and Vegeta.

""Ultimate/Ultra Super Saiya-jin Trunks", however, was significantly stronger than he was as a "second stage" Super Saiya-jin and had a clear advantage in his fight with Perfect Cell."

WHAAAAAAT?! Clear advantage? Maybe in the anime but in the manga, Trunks goes USSJ2, and is quickly defeated. He gets no blows, no nothing on Cell. I'm arguing with someone who's using filler in his debates. Thats worse than any form of assumption.

"You are not Akira Toriyama. Despite your presumptions, you don't dictate the rules of the Dragon Ball universe."

I don't need to be. Point out one instance where something stated and was never contradicted was still invalid. Please do so for me.

"Vegeta is a credible source. I'm not going to explain -why-, because I've already defined a "credible source" several times. Please pay more attention."

Him being a qualifier=your opinion. I can easily say Vegeta is just a proud Prince and all he does is brag when he can't back it up, which is proven with the majority of all his fights. He states he can beat someone but can't.

"It was implied that Tenshinhan had no interest in further contact with the others at the end of the Cell Games, and there's no evidence that Yamucha ever went to have tea or see a movie with Tenshinhan in the seven year interim. Do you have something that suggests otherwise? "

Yes. Yamucha's statement. He wouldn't have said such a thing had he not known Ten's power would he?

"Demonstrate that Yamucha was qualified to make that assertion."

Had he not been qualified, he wouldn't have said so. Yamucha's statement is that Kuririn is the strongest among humans. However he found that out its left up to the reader. Point is, its stated.

"Which would still offer more benefits than not training at all, like Krillin."

Even though its a known fact that Kuririn trained for at least one month. Its an assumption as to whether or not Ten trained. And again, cite some evidence of Ten > Kuririn in the Boo saga, and not assumptions.

"How do we know that? "

All evidence suggests so. I don't feel like bringing it up since you believe only certain people "qualify" to be valid, even though Toriyama wouldn't have a character state this for no reason.

"Not strong enough to blast "semi-perfect" Cell backwards with one of his energy attacks."

And? Ten couldn't do anything if it weren't for an attack that isn't necessarily derived from your own strength.

"That's not evidence that "Super" Buu doesn't use his full strength on opponents who are weaker than him. All that tells us is that Super Saiya-jin Gotenks is durable enough not to be killed by a couple of punches from Majin Buu."

I'll give you that one. But characters in DB can fight using only a portion of their strength as proven with Cell vs Goku, and Cell vs Trunks and Cell vs Vegeta.

"I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. That there's a plot hole in that part of the Cell Saga?"

LOL you can't just discredit it as a plothole. Its as valid as any other scene in DB. Goku's never seen the Artificial Humans nor can he sense their ki, nor has he seen Vegeta's power but he states he's useless against them.

"Provide the quote."

Don't feel like it. Ask Rachel. She has the manga. Its the scene where Kaioshin is flying with GOku, Piccolo, and Vegeta to look for Boo. Its around the time where Goku says "Boo? That sounds like a fart."

"When does he state this? Provide the quote and cite the manga chapter."

The first time the Kienzan is used.

"Secondly, the fact that Goku apparently observes Dabura performing a magical technique immediately before revising his evaluation is -not- inconsequential. Being able to use magic in addition to having a high power level would definitely make someone a stronger opponent. "

True but he also said all this after he witnessed Dabura's full power against Gohan. I don't see how Magic gives you higher strength. He was just surprised that he could use magic as well.

"Yes, Akira Toriyama's character, Yamucha, is not qualified to compare Tenshinhan and Krillin based on the evidence he provided in the manga. "

Right, in your opinion.

Please provide an instance where a statement which was never to be contradicted was invalid. Regardless of what you want to believe, we have a quote saying Kuririn > Ten, but we have nothing in the Boo saga showing the otherway around. 1 statement > nothing.

[Dayspring]

Manga=canon. I don't recall any blood in the manga. So that throws that argument out the window.

Are you shitting me?! There's blood all over the manga! Look at pretty much ANY fight! ESPECIALLY after the 22nd budoukai saga.

[Zackarotto]

Yeah... the manga was much bloodier than the anime, even in Japan. Shouldn't be hard to find any... take some time to look through some major fights.

[James R. Cadwell]

Already explained why.

You only explained why it was -possible- not why he -would-.

My point I'm trying to make is that the Kikoho isn't an accurate source to judge Tenshinhan's strength because it'd have the same affect had Kuririn used it.

But Krillin doesn't know the "Kikoho" technique. The fact that Tenshinhan can perform the "Kikoho" and has trained himself to endure the physical strain of the attack means that he's a more powerful fighter than Krillin.

Boo's absorption technique is different from fusion is it not?

We were TALKING about Buu's absorption technique. You even mentioned absorption specifically. Pay attention.

This is what you said:

Gohan-kun: Not really, as its proven that if someone is significantly weaker than you, and you absorb/fuse with them, you'll become weaker yourself. Goku states so.

in reply to this:

James R. Cadwell: So if "Fat" Buu absorbed Radditz, he would have a huge advantage over Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku? It's more like "you can dominate your opponent if you're proportionately stronger than him by a certain margin.

WHAAAAAAT?! Clear advantage? Maybe in the anime but in the manga, Trunks goes USSJ2, and is quickly defeated. He gets no blows, no nothing on Cell.

Can somebody who owns the manga verify this and provide the relevant dialogue? I was fairly certain that Cell at least -implied- that Trunks would have been able to defeat him in the "Ultimate/Ultra Super Saiya-jin" form had he been fast enough.

I'm arguing with someone who's using filler in his debates. Thats worse than any form of assumption.

Don't pull that manga-purist stuff here. Especially not when you've -used- filler material yourself during the course of this debate and were corrected on that by someone else.

I always defer to the manga when there's an incongruity between Toriyama's original material and the anime, I just don't -own- the manga so I can't check for any discrepancies personally.

Grow up.

I don't need to be. Point out one instance where something stated and was never contradicted was still invalid. Please do so for me.

You're making the assumption that -all- dialogue in -every- context is absolutely true unless contradicted

Him being a qualifier=your opinion. I can easily say Vegeta is just a proud Prince and all he does is brag when he can't back it up, which is proven with the majority of all his fights. He states he can beat someone but can't.

Feel free to make that assertion in a new topic. I'll be more than happy to debate you there.

Yes. Yamucha's statement. He wouldn't have said such a thing had he not known Ten's power would he?

So he should have said: "Strongest amongst Earthlings, anyway -- except for that guy Tenshinhan, who I haven't seen in years. He might -actually- be the strongest. I don't know for sure because I haven't seen him".

Stop treating dialogue as if all the characters are omniscient, always completely accurate, and their comments are never ambiguous or indirect. Toriyama knew how to create distinct personalities and opinions for every character. Each character isn't actually the manga personification of Toriyama himself.

Had he not been qualified, he wouldn't have said so. Yamucha's statement is that Kuririn is the strongest among humans. However he found that out its left up to the reader. Point is, its stated.

Circular logic.

Even though its a known fact that Kuririn trained for at least one month. Its an assumption as to whether or not Ten trained. And again, cite some evidence of Ten > Kuririn in the Boo saga, and not assumptions.

Yes, a whole month after seven years of inactivity. You saw what happened to Gohan's power after abstaining from his training.

All evidence suggests so. I don't feel like bringing it up since you believe only certain people "qualify" to be valid, even though Toriyama wouldn't have a character state this for no reason.

ONCE AGAIN, you are not Akira Toriyama, even though you might have deluded yourself into believing that you are. Don't presume to understand his precise reasoning.

And? Ten couldn't do anything if it weren't for an attack that isn't necessarily derived from your own strength.

Roshi's explanation explicitly states that the energy is derived from the user -- where else would it come from? You continue to reference issues which have already been satisfactorily resolved.

I'll give you that one. But characters in DB can fight using only a portion of their strength as proven with Cell vs Goku, and Cell vs Trunks and Cell vs Vegeta.

That was never contested.

LOL you can't just discredit it as a plothole. Its as valid as any other scene in DB. Goku's never seen the Artificial Humans nor can he sense their ki, nor has he seen Vegeta's power but he states he's useless against them.

I didn't. Pay attention. I offered several explanations which maintain suspension of disbelief. Either you are deliberately ignoring elements of my replies or your reading skills are abysmal.

Don't feel like it. Ask Rachel. She has the manga. Its the scene where Kaioshin is flying with GOku, Piccolo, and Vegeta to look for Boo. Its around the time where Goku says "Boo? That sounds like a fart."

Don't authoritatively refer to elements of the manga which you are not willing to produce.

The first time the Kienzan is used.

Provide the quote and cite the manga chapter.

Please provide an instance where a statement which was never to be contradicted was invalid. Regardless of what you want to believe, we have a quote saying Kuririn > Ten, but we have nothing in the Boo saga showing the otherway around. 1 statement > nothing.

First demonstrate that Yamucha is a credible source. "Toriyama wouldn't have made him say that unless it was true" is not an acceptable in-universe explanation and implies that you have knowledge of Toriyama's inner thoughts.

[Dayspring]

I'm getting annoyed with these 00ber long posts.
They're everywhere now! Zackarotto's started his hackin' of the innernet I tells ya!

[Zackarotto]

I don't even go through these posts any more. Well, I skim. With some people it's a lot harder to read because of lack of using the quote feature. It might be harder to type, certain people, but the rewards come by later on when it's time for people to actually read it. Come on!!!

You know how Superman solved debates and arguements? He flew around the world really fast. This conversation needs a Superman.

[James R. Cadwell]

I don't even go through these posts any more. Well, I skim. With some people it's a lot harder to read because of lack of using the quote feature. It might be harder to type, certain people, but the rewards come by later on when it's time for people to actually read it. Come on!!!

You know how Superman solved debates and arguements? He flew around the world really fast. This conversation needs a Superman.

Where is your evidence that Superman can fly around the world quickly enough to solve this debate?

[TripleRach]

I really didn't want to get involved in another Tenshinhan vs Kuririn argument, but there is so much misinformation and so many logical fallacies in this one...can't resist...

I want to state a few things first:

1) Kuririn stopped shaving his head because he stopped fighting. Gohan says this in Chapter 426.

2) Tenshinhan says "I probably won't see any of you again" after the Cell Game, in Chapter 408. Seven years later, in 426, Gohan admits to not knowing where Tenshinhan and Chaozu are. In 431, Gokuu asks why Tenshinhan and Chaozu aren't at the Budoukai, and Kuririn reaffirms that he had said "I probably won't see any of you again". If anyone had any contact with Tenshinhan in those seven years, surely one of them would have told him about the revival of the Tenkaichi Budoukai and the return of Gokuu.

Wow. From your quote, Muten Roshi says "Because of ITS power" not because of Tenshinhan's. That means the attack in itself and not Tenshinhan's own power. If Kuririn had the attack, the same result would have happened to Cell.

You've taken that quote totally out of context, and you ignore the fact that the source of Kikouhou's power is Tenshinhan's ki.

Manga=canon. I don't recall any blood in the manga. So that throws that argument out the window.

Um, no. There was blood in the manga (Chapter 343, for anyone interested). That was an important plot point of the battle that he let #19 punch him to figure out his level.

Not really. I didn't feel any need to mention it. Trunks' strength overall is not greater than Cell's. Ultra Super Saiyan only bulkes one up to make their punches more effective. It doesn't increase their overall strength which is why Cell could easily do damage to him.

Nope. Gokuu explains (Chapter 387) that with USSJ, "your muscles and power get really big, but it kills your speed". In Dragon Ball, "power" is synonymous with "strength". Cell also asserts that USSJ relies on power alone.

No, he states he could hear what was going on in his dreams. He never sees them. That scene where he dreams of them is filler. So, please address that point. Goku had never seen the Artificial Humans. Beisdes that, they have no ki so he couldn't tell how strong they were. Yet, he states he can't do anything against them. I guess Goku is just a dumb hick and doesn't qualify.

For clarification, Gokuu does indeed say he knew everything in his sleep (Chapter 365). He states that he knew Vegeta lost, and he would do no better than Vegeta, which is when he first decides to try surpassing SSJ.

Don't feel like it. Ask Rachel. She has the manga. Its the scene where Kaioshin is flying with GOku, Piccolo, and Vegeta to look for Boo. Its around the time where Goku says "Boo? That sounds like a fart."

That's no way to argue. You have to back up your own claims. If you present information, you must be willing to defend it and provide credible evidence for it. It's also a bit unfair to expect me to do it. But in this case, I did. 445. It's been fairly annoying citing chapter numbers throughout this post.