Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[Perfect]

Makin a drawing don't add anything to your argument, especially since you are not adding any new concent, only repeating yourself over and over again.

It doesn't add anything you're right, because it's exactly what I've been saying this entire time. I've been repeating myself, because it's as simple as day and you choose to argue with something that's perfectly correct.

You can even write a book about it, but it won't make it less subjective.

How you view someone is subjective, not how they're feeling or portrayed to be feeling.

The fun thing about interpretation is that what is there for you is not for other people.

Portrayal and having the brain power to acknowledge it is completely different from interpretation.

How they are feeling for you.

No, they're feeling that way regardless of me or how I look at it.

Someone else may say that you are not seeing how things really are (for them)

Then they'd be wrong seeing they fit the definition of surprised visually and verbally. It's clearly portrayed in that light.

Countering my argument several times won't have any effect.

That's what tends to happen when you talk to someone that throws logic out the window.

Squares are mensurable, emotions are not.

It's an analogy, how you get mensurable from this is beyond me. You don't have to measure an emotion to see it fits a definition that's quite obviously being visually and verbally portrayed.

[VegettoEX]

If all you folks are going to do is pick apart -- literally line-by-line -- the stuff each other are saying, you're not actually contributing anything worthwhile; it's painfully self-absorbed the way it reads.

Please remember that you are expected to be courteous to your fellow fans. As usual with these types of topics, it's verging far off-course, and that just isn't acceptable.

[Fox666]

it's as simple as day and you choose to argue with something that's perfectly correct.

That's purely an arrogant self-opinionated argument.

How you view someone is subjective, not how they're feeling or portrayed to be feeling.

How you see them is.

Portrayal and having the brain power to acknowledge it is completely different from interpretation.

No, it's just your interpretation, no matter how many times you address it as the undeniable truth. You may think that people who see things different from you do so because they are not smart enough, but that tells more about your ability to comprehend others than mine.

No, they're feeling that way regardless of me or how I look at it.

The way you think they are feeling depends on you.

It doesn't matter how much you say that's how they are feeling, that's just your word. And you probably would have more chances of convincing me over this subject (which I barely remember what it is anyway) if you started your sentences with "I think" instead of "You are wrong! That's how things really are!!".

Then they'd be wrong seeing they fit the definition of surprised visually and verbally. It's clearly portrayed in that light.

They had be wrong by seeing it differently from you, apparently.

That's what tends to happen when you talk to someone that throws logic out the window.

Repeating yourself is not a logical argument, it's the absolute opposite: a fallacy, commonly know as "ad nauseum". Claiming you know what is the true nature of things or that I am wrong in the first place are not based on logic either.

it fits a definition that's quite obviously being visually and verbally portrayed.

Anything new to say?

[VegettoEX]

A single additional post by either of you in this style, Fox666 & Perfect, will result in an immediate one-week ban.

The arrogance and inability to compromise within a courteous discussion is absolutely appalling. This is *not* what you agreed to (twice!) prior to registration, and it will not be tolerated any more.

You are not posting on Mr. Everyman's Forum of DBZ Craptacularness. We're going to hold you to a higher standard, and if you're not willing to be held up to that standard, you are not welcome to post here.

[Fox666]

C'mon, I posted barely 1 minute after you...

[Perfect]

If all you folks are going to do is pick apart -- literally line-by-line -- the stuff each other are saying, you're not actually contributing anything worthwhile; it's painfully self-absorbed the way it reads.

Please remember that you are expected to be courteous to your fellow fans. As usual with these types of topics, it's verging far off-course, and that just isn't acceptable.

I've had the theory for quite some time that, no matter how much we argue like this, it's just going to go in circles.

@Fox
So, in turn I've explained how the definitions work and how they apply to this situation.

One of the definitions of "surprise" is, "to make an unexpected assault". Pikkon clearly interferes unexpectedly. He accelerates right past Goku, to the point of where Goku gasps in astonishment. Goku yelps a "What the...", in a bewildered tone of voice. Cell matches this with his expression, as he's readily surprised. He's encountered something unexpected. His pupils and irises shrink as his corneas widen, indicating an emotional state anxiety or a sudden adrenalin rush caused by astonishment. His mouth takes the form of a frown and widens as well, signifying his displeasure. He verbally yells "What!?", showing he's confused at what's coming at him as he wasn't expecting anything or anyone to interfere. We know this seeing he was very confident that Goku would be his only opponent.

One can view Cell to "look funny". That's the thing, he looks funny to you. Just because he looks funny to you, does not mean he's acting humorous. It's just the art style that makes you interpret it that way, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with viewing Cell to look funny, but there's a fine difference between acting humorous and looking humorous based on interpretation.

With that said let's lay out the facts that come from melting the definitions over the characters:

I. Pikkon's entrance fits absolutely perfectly with the definition of surprise.
II. Goku fits the definition of amazed or astonished.
III. Cell fits the definition of surprised.

You have to understand that not everything about an appearance is subjective to interpretation, especially not in this case. To be subjective is to be based on personal feelings or influence, neither applies here seeing that we're readily just applying the appropriate definitions and analyses to the scenario. It's for sure fine that you find the characters to look the way they do, but all visual and verbal evidence rather indicates that Cell was surprised when he was attacked by Pikkon.

I hope this points better reiterates my point to the medium that it's better elaborated through, thus allowing you to fully see what I mean; seeing that I feel a lot of my posts went over your head in that respect.

[Fox666]

I've had the theory for quite some time that, no matter how much we argue like this, it's just going to go in circles.

I guess we agree on that.

"Arguing over the internet is like running in the special olympics. Whether you win or lose, you are still retarded."

One can view Cell to "look funny". That's the thing, he looks funny to you. Just because he looks funny to you, does not mean he's acting humorous. It's just the art style that makes you interpret it that way, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with viewing Cell to look funny, but there's a fine difference between acting humorous and looking humorous based on interpretation.

Like I told DBZ Mick, that may be right. I am not a big fan of how Freeza or Cell are drawn in the anime after their respective arcs. They look more like the Three Stooges meeting the invisible man than real villains.

[Perfect]

A surprise can also be characterized as the result of an unexpected event to any valence. So technically, though I disagree here, Cell could be surprised in a humorous way. So you can interpret how he was surprised of course, after all.

For me I've never been a fan of that art style in particular though granted, I do enjoy how consistent and firm it is, but the animation has been pretty top notch in those episodes in my opinion.

[Fox666]

I like that particular animation studio, but overall Freeza and Cell have a more child-like appearance in the manga, while they look a lot older in the anime.

[lash]

Oh they aren't huh? How are Goku's wristbands able to survive after a blast that destroyed thousands of people and their clothes?

Perhaps the wristbands are more durable there. When exactly are you even talking about?
Plus, it's not exactly good practice to completely answer a question with a question of that kind. You dodged and never refuted Tao Pai Pai's scenario. It still stands.

My bad, I meant Tenshinhan's attack.

Just hurts your argument more. The Kikoho was strong enough to destroy a majority of the armor, but barely even affected Nappa.

Oh so you're saying it's impossible for Vegeta or Nappa to have increased their chi around themselves, hence bracing themselves? One wouldn't need a lot of control either.

They can't control their Ki.

If he's flailing around from the pain, then that'd mean he would be in pain.

That makes little sense. He's flailing and yelling around because he has no energy left to stop where he lands.

That's totally why he was pissed off and 18 got away, oh man.

18 had already gotten away before he rose up. Stands to good reason why he'd be pissed. I guess to you being pissed equates to being stunned.

Majin Vegeta's slammed Goku into plenty of rocks, stunning him. Giving him no time to recover at times.

So what are you getting at? They were equal in power, and once stunned for a few brief moments, got back up with power and fought on. Paikuhan's attack and Cell weren't equal, on the account that Cell was defeated in one blow. Once he recovered, he had essentially no fighting Ki left to even save himself from needles.

I've proved nothing I've said is useless, you're just trying to rationalize one attribute, only to fall prey to another.

Your sentence was incorrect and irrelevant anyway. Which is why it's useless.

Also considering while he was transforming he could stand perfectly fine. He was just battle worn from Freeza kicking his ass constantly while he was forming the Genki-Dama.

It's directly stated his Ki was disappearing after he used the 20 fold Kaioken. That's not even accounting the damage Freeza dealt him afterwords, and the energy sacrificed to make the Genki Dama.

Plus SSJ3 actually does take a good amount of power to use, especially in the mortal realm.

Still waiting when you'll actually stop beating around the bush and prove SSJ requires energy to transform.

You've confused them entirely. Even if you found Cell to be defeated, then he'd have to be immobilized to a large degree. He was stunned, which is implied from the attack and had minimal recovery time.

Being initially stunned and immobilized for an extended time due to damage is pretty much what utterly defeated is in a fight.

Since I'm not the fictional expert in time and you apparently think you are...how about you actually prove he had minimal recovery time for once? If you can't prove he had minimal recovery time, and if I can't prove he had enough time... Then this point is tossed in the garbage bin. It can no longer be used as a defensive crutch in the argument.

It's not fact he beat him in one blow, it was three.

He was defeated in one blow. Since you love using and arguing facial expressions in debates, you can just go right ahead look at it after the initial attack. Cell was finished. The rest were just unnecessary extra to fling him away for insult to injury.

Having no strength to fight back is speculation

Not speculation when it's exactly what happened.

That's entirely irrelevant, because Goku's clearly hurt from such. You've just proven me here.

What are you saying? Goku wasn't hurt. He said the attacks tickled.

The difference here is Paikuhan actually takes damage.

Prove it.

SSJ4 Goku isn't Paikuhan as I recall, different scenario.

Same conditions, comparable scenarios.

Not to mention that if we go by GT, technically Cell and Freeza in Hell are invincible and can't die or be defeated.

They can't die(neither could they in Z in that filler). But they can be defeated.

Actually it does matter, because the boost isn't specified. It could be 1.5 for all we know given his body wouldn't stand a x2 or higher. Nothing suggests what you're saying other than, "It's the Kaio-ken", which is speculation seeing that it's a different technique.

Kaioken is 2x or higher with a multiple. Super Kaioken is Kaioken while in Super Saiyan state. Thinking it's less requires you to provide evidence. Otherwise Occam's razor holds.

Why leave out the beginning if you're leaving the end in, they go with each other. That makes zero sense.

Are you going to reconstruct it or not? I guess it must not be very important then since up to the third post you haven't complied to my request. I'll safely ignore it then.

90% of the time, and even saying not all the time contradicts what you said. Seeing you said they're "instant", and they're rarely ever.

There are instant ones when the scenario requires and needs it to be. In the manga it's even more like 50%. The anime just increases them to fill up time. The same reason why filler exists. If Cell had extra power, he could have instantly powered up when it was required and needed too as he saw Paikuhan rush at him with super power.

They never take forever in the movies because they aren't trying to fill an episode.

Which is why Path to power Goku took his time powering up before that Kamehameha; which is why SSJ2 Gohan in movie 9 and SSJ3 Goku took their sweet time powering up right?

You couldn't refute my other several examples, so it doesn't matter either way.

That was far from instant.

It was pretty close.

There's no indication of him bracing himself, that's speculation.

Just like there's no indication of him having reserve power surpassing Paikuhan's attack, despite the fact that the same Paikuhan was shown crushing him in one attack. Now that is speculation.

If you look at any power up around the Cell saga, revolving around Goku or Cell, the time taken lasted quite some time.

Cell instantly increased his power in his fight against Super Vegeta. So it doesn't always require time for Cell to powerup.

There's also dozens of others littered throughout the anime. Nappa vs Piccolo and co, Vegeta vs Goku, Vegeta vs Dodoria, Vegeta vs Freeza, Freeza vs Goku, Cell vs Piccolo, Piccolo vs Cell, Piccolo vs 17, Cell vs Piccolo and 17, Vegeta vs Cell, Cell vs Vegeta, Trunks vs Cell, Goku vs Cell, Cell vs Gohan, etc.

All irrelevant for this case.

Different writers, different animators and different pacing, no.

Different writers?
This isn't a marvel or DC comic.
The laws of Dragonball carry over, considering it's the same exact thing from the original source with no differentiation from DB and Z.
If Goku can use a Kamehameha in DB, he can use one in Z.
If Piccolo Daimao's reincarnation is in DB and is still connected to Kami, he's still connected to Kami in Z.
If Piccolo Daimao can get 'stunned' and 'immobilized' by Goku but still quickly brings out his reserves and powers-up instantly proceeding to stomp and own Goku...the same laws apply for Cell too. He couldn't do what Piccolo did, therefore his full power was overall weaker than Paikuhan's attack. Simple as that.

If I use your preposterous claim against you, I could just say since the filler is written by Toei and not Toriyama, the laws of Cell being > Goku no longer apply here anymore.

As you'd put it, "useless example". This is filler, thus we're going by the anime.

The anime is an adaptation of the manga.
Your counter argument is as foolish as saying Calculus 2 has different laws and rules than Calculus 1 because its not called the same thing. Everyone knows it is originally just one subject adapted to classroom time and thus broken up into parts. Same deal with the anime.

The theory is that when someone's hit so hard that they're defeated, they lose their energy in reserve completely, as opposed to just being defeated and unable to access it.

It's fact. Considering that's what being defeated means. You don't get utterly defeated in a fight to the point you're helpless and can't defend yourself against stationary things(note, you're entirely conscious)...all while you apparently have energy still in reserve that's not a transformation, that's stronger than the guy who put you in that utterly defeated state? Just repeat that sentence to yourself over and over again and understand how silly a concept that is. Nothing in Dragonball supports that. In fact the exact opposite is suggested. If you have energy in reserve you'd do what Old Piccolo Daimao did to Goku. Cell didn't, therefore he was overpowered. I mean, you might as well argue Broly is > SSJ4 Gogeta like bat crazy Broly fans do. That he was defeated off guard, that he was stunned, immobilized, and never got to use his energy in reserve because he was unable to access it. That's precisely how you're sounding with Cell right now. Ignoring laws established earlier in the series, suggesting a wacky, silly, and not supported scenario happening with Cell. If you're going to suggest something out of the ordinary to defend your favorite character, at the very least, have something really good to back it up. Otherwise you might as well go make a new topic stating Gregory is a mutant Saiyan from 5 million years ago as a reason why he can withstand 10x gravity, with the counter "We can still apply logic to scenes seeing that not every inch of filler is a plot hole". It's really as pointless and silly as that.

I'm not saying anything about filler, I'm saying it's a plot hole in itself.

You'd have to thoroughly prove it. Since I can simply look at it in a non biased angle and don't see it as a plothole... it's not a plothole.

Doesn't matter, if he was afraid of Freeza, that'd mean there was no one around at the time to beat Freeza that he knew of. Plus if he was so afraid of Freeza for all those years and just calls Cell a nobody a few years later,

He was afraid of what Freeza could do while alive. He's dead now, and not a threat to his galaxy. Neither is Cell. The length of him being fearful all those years are irrelevant...there's nothing to be afraid about anymore.

well that's one hell of a plot hole if you ask me.

Well I don't consider it a plothole. Therefore it's not a real plot hole, as a plot hole is something that is completely unexplainable by in-universe means. Therefore his reaction towards Cell being defeated still stand as opposing evidence against you.

If it had nothing to do with his power, then why would be afraid of no one being able to control his anger? -facepalm-

Never said it had 'nothing' to do with his power. He was scared of Freeza's anger. And through that, by extension... his power at being able to wreck havoc. Kaio was never 'directly' scared of how big Freeza's Ki was though(he already knew Goku stood no chance at the time, and thus didn't want Goku angering Freeza). I mean, you might as well question why he isn't shivering in fear when he stands in front of a far stronger Goku if you really think otherwise.

However, I don't believe for a second just because someone loses, that the attack automatically had to overcome whatever amount of chi they had in reserve.

We have examples in the series that say otherwise.
Just look at Trunks against Freeza.

Are you saying Cell could be killed by an attack when his Ki reserves were actually stronger than the attack that kills him? And it that's the case, what happened to the Ki reserves? Evaporated into thin air?

Even if Cell was "utterly defeated", he would have still been immobilized to a large degree and stunned in the beginning.

That's called being utterly defeated.

Who's to say he wasn't mentally?

His screams as he was about to be impaled. He didn't turn retarded in that moment, or suddenly not understand what was going on or was just about to happen.

So how was Cell immobilized in pain again?

Compare his ability to move to when he was first attacked. There's a clear implication of recovery time to a certain degree, given him slightly more time and I'd wager him to jump out of that lake and bash Paikuhan into pieces.

You missed the point. If he was recovering energy(as in..if he had energy at all), he would have offered more resistance than a yell. He would have just flew out before being struck by the needles.

The needles even piercing Cell seems like a very large stretch in itself. It's just for comic relief purposes, really.

Not a viable excuse. That's equivalent to arguing that Cell had a goofy expression when he was attacked like Fox666 was trying to do. Don't go there.

Even if we take that element aside, Cell shows that he's fully awake and able to react by this point. If he was utterly defeated, this wouldn't be so.

You don't need to be unconscious to have no energy.

Not to mention it doesn't even show what happens afterwards, but I think we can safely assume Goku and Paikuhan had to help with locking them up. Even if they were defeated 100%. In fact, they're all awake and showing no signs of lasting damage besides the holes in them when they get locked in. That would mean when they got put into the cell that they were already awake, meaning they should have been able to get away.

It's stated they can't die. The damage they received was implied by Cold to have been enough to kill all of them otherwise. So them being awake by that time or not is irrelevant.

In fact they should be able to get away at any point in the series. Is there some magical barrier preventing them from breaking the bars or Cell teleporting out?

Perhaps.

I. Cell is relaxed and taken by surprise as we established. -Irrelevant. This isn't a supporting point. -
You asked for my argument, and it's a supporting point in my argument. ^irrelevant comment.

It has no support or relevance to Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack. It just says Paikuhan's attack > relaxed Cell.

II. Cell needed recovery time to get back on his feet. -He was given it.
Subjective.

Ok then. 'Subjective' stuff is not actual supporting evidence.

III. Goku is by far weaker than post-zenkai Cell, thus making it nearly impossible for him to injure Paikuhan at all. -I thought you were just arguing that Super Kaioken Goku did damage Paikuhan? Anyway, Goku was stated to have gotten stronger quickly in this filler arc. So he very well could have powered up enough to injure Paikuhan. That pretty much R.I.P this point.
Not once are there gains that significant without a special transformation or fusion. Goku did get a little stronger from his fights and minuscule amount of training sure, but to topple his already stronger son? No, that'd even create plot holes in the Buu saga, there's nothing to suggest he's at SSJ2. The only way this would work would be if this we're an entirely seperate universe from the main story in the anime, which it isn't. Not to mention nothings being "ripped" to shreds here, it's just the typical, arrogant, erroneous "I'm right your wrong" bullshit.

Irrelevant. This is filler. Anything can happen, and stands unless it's a plothole. Goku being stated to getting powerful extremely fast isn't a plothole(you can attribute it to Saiyans getting stronger after every fight or the stronger their opponent the stronger they get anyway). Now it could be considered a plothole for Goku to be SSJ2 level as a SSJ...but that's why it's Paikuhan's Attack > Cell's Maximum, NOT Paikuhan > Cell(which could be possible anyway considering from another perspective he demonstrated power much higher than SSJ Goku.)

You're back to N/A.

Nope but yours is.

You never addressed it point for point(and instead childishly erased it.) So it's still all here if you want to have a crack at it:

Lash's argument:
Paikuhan's attack > Cell's maximum power

-It's freakin shown. What more do you need? Cell had no energy left to even use Bukujutsu after Paikuhan dealt with him. I mean are we even forgetting that Paikuhan likely wasn't even trying his absolute hardest there?
-Goku hypes it up and calls Paikuhan powerful. He wouldn't hype up Paikuhan to Kaio(one who felt Cell's peak)for beating Cell if his attack truly wasn't stronger than Cell's maximum. He'd instead make it a point to mention such.

It's three blows.

He gets in 2 hits. But that doesn't mean Cell wasn't defeated in the first blow.

Mind you that the Daizenshuu have been wrong on occasion,

^The standard default counter response when it proves someone wrong.

such as saying Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabra and then taking it back later.

It never did that.

Their time lines inconsistent, etc.

The manga's timeline is the one that is inconsistent.

It's clearly 3 blows, or from what you're saying at least, 2.Therefore rendering the Daizenshuu incorrect in this context.

Paikuhan gets in 2 blows. Cell was defeated by the first one. No issues here, it still holds.

We're talking about filler and therefore only the anime. The Z anime has an entirely different tone, at least from the middle of the Saiyan arc onward, the writing for filler becomes noticeably different from the DB anime's, the studio rotation clearly changes, etc.

Baseless, unofficial, biased assumption. What if I think the writing is about the same?

but it's also reasonable to believe based on my mixture of evidence (Which he has a severe problem with coping with).

The thing is, I don't have a problem if you have good sound supporting evidence for your claims. But quite frankly, you don't. Or at least I haven't seen any. Your theory so far is the equivalence of the Gregory example I gave up above. It's too silly, sounds like the type of argument Broly fans come up with, and quite frankly has zero support for it. Even by Occam's razor standards: We see Paikuhan's attack defeat Cell. The logical deduction is that Paikuhan's attack > Cell. It's really just that easy! Your original post's example of

I. Goku beat Pure Buu in SSJ, does that mean SSJ Goku > Pure Buu? No, not even a little.

doesn't really hold since you're missing important variables. It would be SSJ Goku and Genki Dama > Pure Boo.

[Perfect]

Maybe you missed the part about how picking lines apart isn't going to accomplish anything. In any case, I'd prefer not to be banned for such. Not to mention I've already taken care of your deal a few pages back when consulted by Saiga.

Plus if you think the Z filler is anything like the DB filler, then you must have a really hard time articulating difference from two completely different things. More or less everything you've said is just as subjective as Cell needing recovery time, thus as plausible as what I've said.

^The standard default counter response when it proves someone wrong.

That attitude's going to get you no where, the Daizenshuu have been known to contradict their own contents on more than one occasion. I don't believe the first hit would put Cell out of commission, I'd call it no less than two; he looks like he'd recover save for the second hit. That's also subjective in itself.

[lash]

Maybe you missed the part about how picking lines apart isn't going to accomplish anything. In any case, I'd prefer not to be banned for such. Not to mention I've already taken care of your deal a few pages back when consulted by Saiga.

A single additional post by either of you in this style, Fox666 & Perfect, will result in an immediate one-week ban.

The arrogance and inability to compromise within a courteous discussion is absolutely appalling.

We aren't picking each other apart 'with arrogance and inability to have a courteous discussion'. Well, at least I'm not intentionally trying to.

But I agree with stopping the one liners.
Unfortunately I didn't know how to address all your points without doing so in that absurdly long post.

You're free to pick the key points and address them and we can continue if you like.

Plus if you think the Z filler is anything like the DB filler, then you must have a really hard time articulating difference from two completely different things.

More or less everything you've said is just as subjective as Cell needing recovery time, thus as plausible as what I've said.

the Daizenshuu have been known to contradict their own contents on more than one occasion.

I don't believe the first hit would put Cell out of commission, I'd call it no less than two; he looks like he'd recover save for the second hit. That's also subjective in itself.

-Only seems different because they are in completely different points in time. But the fillers are essentially all the same thing. Times wasters where they talk about useless things the warriors did in peaceful/ random times.

-I addressed all that in my previous post.

-I was just pointing out what actually does happen...such as in that case.
Point one occasion out tho. I'm curious to hear it. You'd probably have to think really hard. Even the manga itself likely exceeds it in contradictions.

-His eyes were already whited out after the first hit.
We have official material against your subjective perspective. I think you understand which one has higher credibility.

[hleV]

This was inevitable in a discussion about a filler.

[Perfect]

We aren't picking each other apart 'with arrogance and inability to have a courteous discussion'. Well, at least I'm not intentionally trying to.

You definitely were a few pages back, in which I even tried to replicate the same condescending attitude. Especially seeing I acknowledged your theory as perfectly plausible, however not fact. You can sure say Cell's defeated in one hit, but the whole theory here is the overpowering every bit of chi in someone even if they're not using it. I addressed that below in a few interpretations, because that's just your interpretation I'm replying to after all. I just ask you read everything carefully, so we don't have to resort to replying to every line tediously, because it's just going to create more and more and more to reply to. For instance I could have replied to your previous post in the same mannerism, and I probably would have if not warned, but we'd just be making pages and pages of the same thing over and over.

Edit: Note: I answered your question about this at the very bottom: As I've stated the books contradict one another from time to time, just as the anime, does that make their time line that has tons of holes more credible than oh say, one someone else were to make with citations and whatnot? No, of course not. Subjective analysis can always over come something official, when it's just that, subjective. I for one don't believe a single hit defeated him, to me it looks like two (more on that in one of the below responses). I can see what they mean of course, they're not wrong, but neither am I. This is of course because my definition is a bit different from the book, whatever guidebook it is, since I'm not sure of the source of the scan. Pikkon's attack is treated as a Kaio-ken in official material as well. There's plot holes in the anime, which is official, so nothing's impossible when it comes to something being subjective. Goku didn't triple hit the Ginyu's for no reason, because there was no need to. Why would Pikkon deliver a second hit instead of just letting him fall?

Note: if you'd like to skip all the summaries to the replies, then just skip to the bottom where I enforced what I was saying as a whole (granted I did address a few supporting replies down there).

Z filler is quite different from DB filler, we get a ton of more plot holes, boring stories and whatnot (that's subjective sure, but the writing style difference isn't). More or less everything you've said is just as subjective as Cell needing recovery time, thus as plausible as what I've said.

^The standard default counter response when it proves someone wrong.

That condescending attitude's going to get you no where, the Daizenshuu have been known to contradict their own contents on more than one occasion.

So I'll just try and wrap up what I said there while still replying to your replies.

His wristbands really don't show any indication of being any different from his other clothes. The sharpness of the blade has nothing to do with it as Vegeta was off guard and weakened. Nappa when hit with Tenshinhan's attack, was off guard. Goku and his wristbands were on guard, and trust me, Vegeta's blast there is easily stronger than anything from the Saiyan saga. In other words, everything depends on whether or not the user is braced for the attack, plus the build up of chi around them; going hand in hand with each other. I also didn't address Tao because I don't remember that fight very well. And Nappa and Vegeta can "control" chi, just not very well. Nappa and Vegeta were both able to power up and create attacks. To create attacks you need to put some form of power into the attack, the same could be said for bracing yourself. Recoom loses his clothes from Vegeta's blast, which is obviously weaker than some of the other attacks later on in the series that rip them. Granted Recoom also lost his teeth and hair, usually that doesn't happen, it seems rather implied he just physically took it... I mean what other character loses their hair and teeth from an attack that badly. I suppose you could attribute the fact since Vegeta either caught him off guard or let him attack, didn't give him a chance to block at all, thus not allowing him to brace himself (Though it wouldn't matter since Recoom is so much stronger, even though he was damaged from the attack; toothache much?). It seems that on the majority of occasions a character's clothes are torn when they're not able to brace themselves or they're just significantly overpowered.

The reason as to why he's flailing is entirely subjective, so neither of us are wrong here. As for 18 getting away, if Cell wasn't momentarily stunned from each given hit, then he could have just rose through each attack, thus not allowing her to get away. Freeza actually pushes through Goku's Kamehameha and goes around it, not being stunned at all. Wouldn't you say if Cell had no ki left, he'd be unable to move at all? When Gohan's battle power dropped to zero, he was all but dead. He only twitched slightly for a few seconds. When Krillin and Gohan give their chi away to Piccolo, they have a hard time moving at all. When the people of Earth hit near zero from giving their genki to Goku, they passed out. If Cell's able to yell and do all this stuff, there's a clear indication he had some form of energy left, not or close to zero. He simply didn't have enough energy to stop his momentum at the time. The energy he had left from Pikkon's attack could just be so little that he knew it wouldn't make a difference if he surfaced.

Goku's battle power wasn't zero after all, low, but not zero before he transformed for the first time. There'd have to be some form of energy used to transform, maybe not a lot in this particular scenario, but some. The amount of time in a fight a user is stunned or immobilized doesn't mean defeat, unless the rules beckon so, like at a tournament. If the user is at the other's mercy, knocked out, not given any recovery time, etc. then they're defeated. A lot of that is subjective, sure, but being knocked out sure isn't. I could have another character at the mercy of Santa Clause, but he could be thinking: "I'm not beaten yet! I still got one thing left..." Meaning the character may appear to be beaten but they're not. Cell's case is a little different, in my opinion he lost the moment he was thrown into the needles. I also hate to have to say this, but that is speculation, because it's subjective. Just because you keep screaming fact at something that's influenced by perspective and interpretation does not mean it's so. Whether or not Cell could fight back if he was given more time is entirely subjective.

In GT, Cell and Freeza have pretty much unlimited chi. If their bodies are destroyed and they can just come back at the same strength, then they're like physical ghosts. I mean GT is way different from Z filler, it's implied Pure Buu could destroy the afterlife an everyone in it after all. Plus in my opinion Pikkon does take pain from the hit because it's subjective visually and verbally, unlike the case with Cell charging Goku that I discussed prior. I'd like to address the Super Kaio-ken again. Unless you can provide some sort of proof besides, "I'm right your wrong it's the Kaio-ken", then it's subjective. On to the movies, none of them took forever in comparison to the Z one's that took forever. is what I was getting at. I also counteracted several power ups that did take a long time. The mangas are short and sweet, but we're talking about the anime, since we're talking about filler.

Just like there's no indication of him having reserve power surpassing Paikuhan's attack, despite the fact that the same Paikuhan was shown crushing him in one attack. Now that is speculation.

This just adds to the fact you read nothing after my post to you. I stated a lot of what I said is just as much subjective as what you said. I stated the fact Cell's being surprised as fact, which isn't relevant here, but the rest as speculation and entirely plausible. I also wouldn't call Cell's power up instant, seeing that it takes awhile; subjective too. ^.-;;

All irrelevant for this case.

I don't even know why I'm arguing with someone that's just going to be condescending and stubborn. You're pretty much saying they're irrelevant because they don't help your case. I stated examples of power ups that took long amounts of time, you did the opposite, how is that irrelevant? I view that as just being stubborn, as I was stating some power ups do take forever and those did, which attributes to some power ups in the anime taking long periods of time from an in-story perspective. :S

Dragon Ball may not be like DC or Marvel, but Toei does have a laaaaarge cast of different writers. I don't see really any contradicting filler, so much as I do in Z. The writers in Z don't carry over laws from episode to episode a lot of the times, otherwise we wouldn't have plot holes. I'd also like to add that while the anime is an adaption, filler is not and therefore just that, filler. An example of a plot hole is how Kaio states Cell is a nobody, yet he was terrified of Freeza only a year or two prior. Unless Kaio found out about Dai Kaio's stuff recently, which he implies he didn't, it's a plot hole from my point of view.

As for what we know, Trunks didn't shatter Freeza's reserves of chi for all we know either. All we know is he got cut in half because he was outsmarted; this rendering him at a lower level of chi allowing him to be overpowered. I say this because a lot of fans tend to think Freeza wasn't using full power, and it's very plausible after all as a theory. A lot of people could also be mentally distorted and still scream because they're being flung from the ground into the air, disoriented. It's perfectly legitimate, meaning they don't have to be retarded... Which may cause a derp.

My whole theory is this, reiterating it here:

Cell was not defeated in one hit, but two if not three. Here's why:
-Cell was still conscious the entire time, I view him as being defeated once the last hit is dealt. I mean why would Pikkon even better to scatter them around a pile of needles if he didn't have to?
-Cell may have been overpowered in hit one or two, but by two or three he would be defeated.

Cell needed more recovery time:
-Technically this is both subjective and a fact. If any character is "beaten", they'd need time to recover from it. Let's say you're right for a second. If Cell was left in the pond for an hour or so, he'd have the recovery time he needed. However, my theory is that Cell's battle power did not drop to zero, just significantly. I'd like to think if one's able to freak out, being fully conscious, they'd have some amount of battle power left. Regardless of how you look at it, any amount would allow any of them to overpower the Oni's in Hell while they were being brought to jail, unless Goku and Pikkon oversaw it, which I guess is plausible.

Edit:

-I was just pointing out what actually does happen...such as in that case.
Point one occasion out tho. I'm curious to hear it. You'd probably have to think really hard. Even the manga itself likely exceeds it in contradictions.

Here's the one about Gohan:

Daizenshuu 2 only lists high school era SSj2 Gohan as appearing in volume 37, though it doesn't flat-out say that he never uses that form again. Then Daizenshuu 7's bio for Dabra says he fought SSj2 Gohan

To me that sounds like an error because they don't mention him as SSJ2 again since it only lists him in the form once. Then they go on to say he was at another time period.

Another contradiction is the time line dates, this is actually in one of Herms' time line threads, where he fixed the problems with it (Don't remember which, but it isn't the manga that's inconsistent; there's also only two threads on it, so it shouldn't be hard to find; especially since it's floated).

I mean they're not even consistent with Buu's names. There's a bunch of errors in the Daizenshuu and various guidebooks, so I can try and find more if you'd like (I'd guess maybe around 40 total, granted that isn't that many when you look at all the pages put together :p). And for the record, I really didn't have to think hard... At all for this.

My whole point here is that, there's plenty of small errors in guidebooks. And my interpretation doesn't contradict it either, but I'm saying even it did (which it really doesn't), they could still be wrong based on the subjective nature of the argument. What the scan says is merely a different interpretation by a different definition of defeat, etc.

[dbgtFO]

An example of a plot hole is how Kaio states Cell is a nobody, yet he was terrified of Freeza only a year or two prior. Unless Kaio found out about Dai Kaio's stuff recently, which he implies he didn't, it's a plot hole from my point of view.

I have to agree with lash here, I'm really not seeing any plothole with Kaio not being afraid of Freeza any longer. The guy had been dead for more than 3 years by that point and can't possibly wreck havoc like Kaio feared, so no need for fear.

As for what we know, Trunks didn't shatter Freeza's reserves of chi for all we know either. All we know is he got cut in half because he was outsmarted; this rendering him at a lower level of chi allowing him to be overpowered. I say this because a lot of fans tend to think Freeza wasn't using full power, and it's very plausible after all as a theory.

Well lash said this:

Are you saying Cell could be killed by an attack when his Ki reserves were actually stronger than the attack that kills him? And it that's the case, what happened to the Ki reserves? Evaporated into thin air?

It seems like lash forgot about Krillin's blast piercing Vegeta's abdomen, due to Vegeta being extremely suppressed. So Cell being killed by a blast weaker than his actual power, but stronger than his suppressed power doesn't seem unlikely especially, when destroying his nucleus and then the rest of him is all you need to do to kill him.

[Perfect]

Erm, let me just clarify here. If Kaio was terrified of someone like Freeza not too long ago, but doesn't revere Cell as anything special less than a month afterwards (We see Kaio cringing at Cell and Gohan's final battle), don't you find that a bit unrealistic? Kaio seems to imply he knew about the fighters on Dai Kaio's planet for some time. I wasn't saying it's an error that Kaio wouldn't be afraid of Freeza, but to not even be a little surprised Cell was defeated when someone a hundred times weaker that nearly made him piss himself a few years prior? The only real argument I could see is, Kaio was only worried in either scenario because Pikkon and the really strong guys were dead... But if either was a real threat to the entire universe (Kaioshin states Freeza was not), they would have been granted permission to take care of them in the mortal realm... You know like Vegeta was or how Goku got a day off... Well at least in Cell's case, seeing he'd likely go blowing up random planets like Buu did, creating a similar threat to Buu (but of course that's speculation).

Edit:

I guess I can see it working, but only if Kaio's explicitly referring to the afterlife (on accord of Cell's rampage being as wide spread as Buu's being speculation only).

[lash]

I answered your question about this at the very bottom:[/b] As I've stated the books contradict one another from time to time, just as the anime, does that make their time line that has tons of holes more credible than oh say, one someone else were to make with citations and whatnot?

The manga has holes in the timeline to start it off.

All in all, I think it makes the most sense to disregard Cell and the chapter 419 narrator’s statements and say that there’s only an 8 month (or possibly 16 month) gap between Trunks’ first two trips. Otherwise, you have to believe that Trunks went from 17 to 21 between his two trips without changing in appearance at all, then went from 21 to 22 and changed noticeably. And you have to ignore all the official birth years and other dates given throughout Daizenshuu 7, the GT Perfect Files, the SEG, and now DB Online. And of course you have to ignore what Bulma says in “Trunks: the Story” (though either way you have to ignore something said in the manga).

The supplemental material also has a few timeline holes in them.

Paikuhan’s attack is never regarded as a Kaio-ken in official material. It’s never even addressed. So anything you or I derive from it is all theory. Paikuhan probably hit Cell an extra time to put him in bloody lake along with the Ginyu force for easy cleanup. Putting them in the needles to impale them and fully take away their consciousness so the Oni can lock em up themselves.

DB filler has a substantial amount of plotholes similar to the plothole quality of Z’s. The only reason it's not ‘more’ is because DBZ is longer. So again, making a subjective differentiation from them as your primary reason to excuse an example just can’t hold.

There’s no indication Goku’s wristbands aren’t any different than his other clothes. Which essentially makes this point moot. Goku’s gi was upgraded by Kaio-sama to be more durable by the time he fought Vegeta. Again, the Tao Tao Pai example still holds. He braced for the attack, but his clothes still weren’t protected. Clothes aren’t guarded by the user’s Ki under normal circumstances.

I meant when Cell was relieved from the Kikoho, not during it. The enemies are obviously stunned in the midst of an attack, unless they are several levels stronger. Freeza’s example isn’t really a good one since we visually see a Ki sphere encircling him. If Cell had no Ki left he doesn’t need to completely unconscious or paralyzed. Just take a look at Vegeta during that same scene you mentioned Gohan. By anime standards, he’s still good enough to catch a senzu bean faster than Recoome can bite into it despite being stated to be near death (which would mean your Genki/Ki is essentially near zero). If cell had power-greater-than-Paikuhan in reserve, he should be at least able to save himself from spikes. Or at the very least, increase his Battle power enough to make it so the spikes don’t hurt him.

It’s never stated SSJ requires a portion of the user’s energy to transform. It may require the user to have a certain battle power (i.e. BP over 1,000 minimum to re-activate the transformation) but nothing like each time it’s used it takes power from the user. Anyway, it just seems a little silly… Saying Cell could fight back if he was given more time to recover is like saying Freeza could defeat Trunks if he was given time to powerup. There’s just no support for it other than re-proclaiming that it’s ‘subjective’. The scenario itself (the good guy defeating the bad guy in one hit) just says otherwise. You really think the creators wanted to imply that Cell’s full power > Paikuhan’s attack despite never stating Cell was ‘not’ poweredup, and despite never saying Cell was defeated yet had a bunch of power in reserve? If we’re being real here, its just not likely. At all. Nothing supports it, and that’s what I’m trying to get you to understand. It’s the same case with thinking Freeza’s maximum power > SSJ Trunks. Sure it’s a theory that can’t truly ever be destroyed or proven completely wrong in a sense, but it’s still downright silly. It’s as silly as the Oolong and Gregory examples I’ve given. It’s not something that’s suggested and nothing supports it. The entire point of me arguing with you is having you realize that. I’m not saying it is impossible, but it’s very unlikely to the point it is in the vicinity of pure silliness.

Z is the same thing. Its filler contradicts itself too. Back when the Ginyu force fought Yamcha and co on Kaio’s world, Chaotzu essentially died. But Kaio stated he can’t die again when he’s already dead. The same thing happened in this very filler too. The announcer states that everyone can fight to their hearts content and not worry about death since they are all already dead. So it’s not just sections of GT filler that’s not compatible with Z…filler as a whole simply cannot make sense. Which is where you get the SSJ3 Goku = Pure Boo > Boo w/ Gohan and co >> SSJ3 Goku = Pure Boo > Boo w/ Gohan and co… issue all because of filler elements. Anyway, it’s getting a little redundant if Paikuhan took pain or not, if Super Kaioken is 2x or not, if you think Z filler is different than DB’s etc. Neither even matter anymore. Just space wasting side arguments.

An example of a plot hole is how Kaio states Cell is a nobody, yet he was terrified of Freeza only a year or two prior. Unless Kaio found out about Dai Kaio's stuff recently, which he implies he didn't, it's a plot hole from my point of view.

Like I said, Freeza’s dead now and so is Cell. Nothing to be worried about. The most they can do is cause chaos in Hell. There’s no plothole here.
If Trunks didn’t shatter Freeza’s reserves, Freeza essentially died with Ki still in his body. Not seeing how that makes sense.

My whole theory is this, reiterating it here:

-There’s a lot of things going against your theory, which all the more make it more and more unlikely. One such as official material saying Cell was down in one hit, and the scene itself…Cell being shown KOed in that same very first hit (his eyes were whited out, suggesting unconsciousness).
-If Recovery time is subjective it isn’t really a supporting point. You could say Cell needed a large amount of time, and I could say Cell needed a little amount of time and was given it. As for being conscious while having no battle power…I already gave the example with Vegeta after his Recoome fight. He was near death(essentially zero Ki) and was still conscious enough to catch a senzu bean.

Here's the one about Gohan:

Not a contradiction. Gohan was last ‘seen’ as a SSJ2 in vol 37. Daizenshuu 7 says he fought Dabra as a SSJ2. Considering a majority of the beginning of the fight was off panel, it’s not a stretch to say Gohan used SSJ2 there.
The manga itself isn’t even consistent with Boo’s names...

[NzK]

Erm, let me just clarify here. If Kaio was terrified of someone like Freeza not too long ago, but doesn't revere Cell as anything special less than a month afterwards (We see Kaio cringing at Cell and Gohan's final battle), don't you find that a bit unrealistic? Kaio seems to imply he knew about the fighters on Dai Kaio's planet for some time. I wasn't saying it's an error that Kaio wouldn't be afraid of Freeza, but to not even be a little surprised Cell was defeated when someone a hundred times weaker that nearly made him piss himself a few years prior? The only real argument I could see is, Kaio was only worried in either scenario because Paikuhan and the really strong guys were dead... But if either was a real threat to the entire universe (Kaioshin states Freeza was not), they would have been granted permission to take care of them in the mortal realm... You know like Vegeta was or how Goku got a day off... Well at least in Cell's case, seeing he'd likely go blowing up random planets like Buu did, creating a similar threat to Buu (but of course that's speculation).

Edit:

I guess I can see it working, but only if Kaio's explicitly referring to the afterlife (on accord of Cell's rampage being as wide spread as Buu's being speculation only).

Cell hadn't really been on the scene that long for Kaio to notice him. Kaio does watch over quite a large amount of space, after all. With Freeza, here you had a tyrant who was well-known among the deities (it seems) for quite some time. Remember when Goku visits Kaio prior to searching out the new Planet Namek he scolds him a little for not noticing what had happened on Earth (he was even sleeping when Goku arrived, lol). But once he started paying attention to Cell, I'm sure he'd have been just as anxious as he was with Freeza, but I'm not sure we ever see that kind of reaction from him. Perhaps its the difference of personality between Freeza and Cell. Kaio knew exactly how fearsome Freeza was, and had probably seen what he had done to civilisations throughout the universe. Cell on the other hand, only terrorised Earth, and didn't have Freeza's track record of villainy. Maybe that eased Kaio a bit, who knows.

[Perfect]

I forgot this thread existed, huh.

What holes in the time line? I've provided evidence towards my claim, unlike you here. The manga's time line is fine in terms of the planned out dates.

Paikuhan’s attack is never regarded as a Kaio-ken in official material. It’s never even addressed.

'Fraid it is, video games regard it that way.

DB filler has a substantial amount of plotholes similar to the plothole quality of Z’s. The only reason it's not ‘more’ is because DBZ is longer. So again, making a subjective differentiation from them as your primary reason to excuse an example just can’t hold.

Oh it does huh? Like what plot holes? Back up your claims please. I see far more in the Z anime during the Cell-Buu arcs then the rest of the series combined, excluding GT.

There’s no indication Goku’s wristbands aren’t any different than his other clothes. Which essentially makes this point moot. Goku’s gi was upgraded by Kaio-sama to be more durable by the time he fought Vegeta. Again, the Tao Tao Pai example still holds. He braced for the attack, but his clothes still weren’t protected. Clothes aren’t guarded by the user’s Ki under normal circumstances.

Considering I'm referring to when Vegeta blasts Goku at the Tenkaichi Budokai, no, Kaio's upgrade is completely moot. Tao Pai Pai had very little chi, therefore even if one braces themselves, does not mean they're subject to being unscathed.

I was referring to when he was under siege by it. I also didn't say Cell's power in reserve was greater than Pikkon's after the attack. I'm just acknowledging there was clearly something left after the attack. I'm stating he had power above Pikkon's beforehand. It's like taking away 6 from 10, 10 is greater than 9, but 4 is quite clearly less.

I'd assume some form of energy would be needed to transform into anything, as it's a technique (granted it's not very much, but logically some minuscule or large form of energy in some cases would need to be accessed). If we're being "real" then no, I'm afraid that's about as "wrong" as I am. The creators were clearly just writing for a transition into a "this guy is gonna be a challenge for Goku", not caring what plot holes are made in the process.

Just space wasting side arguments.

Well the whole of the Buu saga filler arguments can be interpreted in multiple ways, that's about all I'll say here seeing that yes it is space wasting.

Also refer to the edit of post #115 for the Kaio argument.

If Trunks didn’t shatter Freeza’s reserves, Freeza essentially died with Ki still in his body. Not seeing how that makes sense.

I don't see how that doesn't make sense. As long as something has some form of life in it, it can have chi in it. When Freeza's limbs were cut in pieces, I'm sure there was still chi in them until Trunks erased them completely.

Then why would Pikkon need to administer a second hit? Let alone a third? What was the purpose? He was about finishing things quickly, not overdoing it. Nothing states Vegeta's chi was close to zero, just near death. That could mean any large variant of battle power. For instance, in an RPG, the user can have 500 HP. He loses 450 of it, he's near death, but not near zero. Recovery time is subjective and works perfectly for this argument seeing that it entirely depends on the context, and from I can see, Cell recovered some form of energy from the time between the second and third hit. I wouldn't put it past him, given a little more time to come back and beat him. Plus Krillin didn't overpower Vegeta's reserves, he was unable to access it due to injuries.

Vegeta max - 10
Krillin's blast - 6
Krillin - 4
Vegeta suppressed - 5
Vegeta's remaining chi - 1

It seems rather implied that if you're too injured by some means, such as a hole in your chest in this case, then you can't access the energy you'd normally be able to, seeing that Vegeta clearly suppressed himself here and Krillin's no where near his level.

Actually it is a stretch seeing that Gohan was fighting Dabra pretty evenly in the fight, actually Dabra had the upper hand for awhile. Gohan wasn't exerting any signs of being too weakened really either. So he's just going to start at SSJ2, digress into SSJ only to have the underhand and then not transform into SSJ2 because he's losing? It really seems like you're just trying to rationalize these little mistakes.

Actually the manga is fairly consistent, it's just a matter of different characters giving different forms different names, not Toriyama forgetting what he called a character. The Daizenshuu don't categorize it like that, they say that's the characters official names as opposed to, "This character called him this, etc."

@NzK Kaio was watching Gohan's battle with Cell though.

[Monkey D Goku]

I don't see whythey would even bother sending goku and Paikuhan if they werent atleast stronger than spc, because you never fight a villain in a suprressed form imo unless you are future trunks ofc lol. So imo either cell was weaker due to being in hell restrictions or Paikuhan and goku made huge gains in the afterlife.

Well you have to consider only Paikuhan was suppose to go down to hell to take care of cell in the first place. Goku just decided to come along. I don't think Goku made any huge gains in the after life because judging by the filler king kai building a house and having it knocked down they could have only been there for a few days after cell is killed. Although you do bring up a good point maybe hell has some power restriction laws and made cell weaker.