Paikuhan & Cell debate thread

[Perfect]

I guess I would have to review arguments a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. I'm just not seeing how this is so complicated. The mechanics which you're now discussion, sound like total conjecture. I've seen it brought up here before, and there doesn't seem to be anything strictly defined about what it is you're discussing. The concept of "reserve power"... what official materials, either from the source, or supplemental, define this?

So you openly admit you haven't read the previous arguments and yet you're insinuating it isn't that complicated? How can you come to a conclusion based on minimal material? You can't. Power reserves doesn't have to be defined, no one here has implied that once, because it's something as obvious as Freeza not being an Earthling. Simply speaking, when a user is at an initial amount of power, they're not using their full power. The difference would be their reserves, a reserve is just something they're not using. Things like that don't need supplementary material seeing that the reader can put it together just by reading.

I'd say as the debate has become a monster, you should take it back to square one, and proceed with specific references. Once you've identified everything in which you have references to, I would suggest omitting the material, in which there are none.

A monster it has become, one I'm quite fond of. Odds are, lash and I will continue to argue over our view points until we come to an agreement. Until then, I doubt we'll be "omitting" anything. I may however, type something up in a similar fashion that I did in the start and middle of this thread when I have time. I'll address all the view points given, I guess you'd call it a "historical" time line through this topic.

Just a suggestion. I'd like to see this debate reach a conclusion, and I think that's the best way to do it. It's clear, that the way you guys are currently doing it, will not. There are only 26 letters in the alphabet, and you're already up to "G".

Well I'm sure a lot of us would, it just isn't that easy. It was an analogy, there literally isn't an a, b or c, whatever. There's a ton more, probably extending to z. As for the current way we're arguing, I've taken a different tone with it as I did in the end with Fox and the beginning of what I'd say is the "half-time" between us. I think it's died down quite a bit and the main arguments are fairly off topic from both of us responding to mechanics and evidently debating about them. The numerical variables I've given rather prove it's completely possible for Cell's maximum power to be above Pikkon's attack, this also works for Krillin and Vegeta on Namek and a few others in the series.

[paperbowser]

I guess I would have to review arguments a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. I'm just not seeing how this is so complicated. The mechanics which you're now discussing, sound like total conjecture. I've seen it brought up here before, and there doesn't seem to be anything strictly defined about what it is you're discussing. The concept of "reserve power"... what official materials, either from the source, or supplemental, define this?

I'd say as the debate has become a monster, you should take it back to square one, and proceed with specific references. Once you've identified everything in which you have references for, I would suggest omitting the material, in which there are none.

Just a suggestion. I'd like to see this debate reach a conclusion, and I think that's the best way to do it. It's clear, that the way you guys are currently doing it, will not. There are only 26 letters in the alphabet, and you're already up to "G".

whether or not its complicated is a matter of opinion. you havent read the entirety of the thread either, so why would everyone be willing to jump on things that've already been discussed

[lash]

there's nothing that implies clothes are ever made durable enough, that's a theory that has no ground

It’s directly stated.

Yamcha: “Lord Kaio! Goku’s wearing that heavy dougi, right!?”
Kaio: “No…what he’s wearing now is merely durable, and not heavy…”

The anime also tends to say the same.

That's near death I'm afraid. 10 is near death, but not near zero.

But as we see, that doesn't seem to be the case in Dragonball. Like I mentioned in my previous post:

If Vegeta’s max is 50 and is at 10, he is NOT near death. He has a whopping 10 battle power to support all his vital life functions. Again, a Gohan at 1 can breathe, talk, walk, and sustain life just fine. For a similar organism like Gohan, near Death isn’t going to be anything higher than that. By your warped definition, anyone could just say that same 50 Vegeta at 49 is also near death. Your RPG definition of “Near Death” is trying to be based on perception, which is pretty ridiculous and not suggested in the slightest in this series.

The series isn’t a game with hit points or a health bar.

Goku's reaction is delayed, simply speaking because he didn't see it coming until the last second.

He sensed it, or at least felt the subtle vibrations in the air. Z warriors don’t need to see something to react. It still doesn’t really excuse how he goes from “barely able to keep his eye lid open or stand up on his own, to being able to fly and almost dodge a Kienzan from 100% Freeza after unlocking and transforming into SSJ” anyway.

III. We were talking about the anime. In which the line is "just about dead”.

I wasn’t implying Gohan lost all his energy from the start of the fight. I’m saying he lost enough of it, that he couldn’t maintain SSJ2. Here’s evidence on what we have concerning Gohan using SSJ2 off panel:

-Goku states Gohan used up a lot of stamina/energy(both manga: Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. ... and anime). Highly unlikely when he’s supposedly only fighting as a FPSSJ AND didn't take much damage as Babidi states. It seems to points to Gohan using a higher level of SSJ.
-Gohan couldn't have been using SSJ2 on panel in his fight with Dabra, because well...he is clearly and undoubtedly just a FPSSJ.
-Babidi complains about not getting enough damage energy…which would indicate that Gohan was not damaged much(his uniform is still intact when it starts showing the on panel fight. On panel we only see him take damage from one attack the entire duration of the fight...in which finally damages his uniform).
-Official author endorsed stated material...Daizenshuu 7 flat out states he used SSJ2 in the fight.
-Daizenshuu 4 stays the last time SSJ2 Gohan is “shown” in the manga is in the tournament period. Meaning, unless we flat out want a contradiction to occur with Daizenshuu 7, Gohan would have to have used SSJ2 off panel.
-And to wrap it up: It’s flat out said there was an off panel fight by the narrator.

“While Mister Satan celebrated his championship victory in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, Gohan had been fighting with Dabra”

Bringing all these facts together, I think anyone can agree that those are decent points for such a theory to stand quite well without looking completely silly and unfounded.
The issue I have with your theory: as in "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack"... is that there is truly absolutely no evidence for it. Like literally, at all. I will admit that you've made your point and brought evidence that Cell was likely suppressed when he was defeated, and also reaffirmed that Paikuhan's attack > Suppressed Cell ...But quite frankly you still haven't been able to give one support, reason, or evidence on why anyone should think "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" without seeming like there is some sort of biased motive behind it(overrating Cell). That's pretty much the central focus of this debate in my eyes. Once you can bring enough good substantial evidence supporting it, even I'd probably consider it. But if you can't...well I hope you now understand why I or perhaps even others won't take such a theory seriously in the slightest. It'd honestly be equivalent to saying the gingerbread man Buruma's mom made had SSJ2 like powers in reserve, but couldn't access it because he was over baked to 550 degrees and eaten before he was given adequate recovery time.

When I first requested you to list errors, it had taken you over 4 posts to finally list a single valid error in the supplemental material.

Whether or not Cell took continuous damage is up to interpretation

Explain to me why you think so. After we see him freed from the blood river: He wasn't bleeding, he wasn't unconscious anymore, he wasn't holding any area in pain. I don't see any valid reason to believe he was taking continuous damage.


I'm already familiar with how your theory works. Since you keep saying that Paikuhan's attack knocking through to Cell's full power reserves are 'subjective' and we have two different irreconcilable perceptions on it that we could argue about for eternity, I've decided to be less aggressive and take another approach...

Paikuhan's attack. This is simply the power of Paikuhan's attack. We can chalk it up to be stronger than Cell's initial state, but lower than his max state.

In continuation to what I said about 5 lines above, you're really going to need evidence to proclaim this if you truly want to have a credible theory. Like Titan and FindKenshi mentioned, Cell was defeated. I don't see enough basis to turn around and say that same Cell's maximum power is > that same attack that Paikuhan used to beat that Cell.

Why're you constantly saying everything is wrong and irrelevant based on your own theories that are never implied by anything besides interpretation?

Perhaps it's because I'm not constantly saying everything is wrong and irrelevant based on my own theories that are never implied by anything besides interpretation?

[paperbowser]

Perhaps it's because I'm not constantly saying everything is wrong and irrelevant based on my own theories that are never implied by anything besides interpretation?

Perhaps it's from my own observation that you are as to why I've stated as much. Maybe you perceive what you say differently in your head, which outcomes to a different interpretation. Ever consider that?

[Perfect]

Errors:
Uh no, everything I've listed is pretty valid (granted we're still arguing about Gohan). See the time lines for a better look through.

Clothes:
Yes but that's at a completely different point in the story, nothing implies Kaio's been supplying Goku with more and more and more durable clothes. We just know of that one instance. Nothing implies he'd even be capable of supplying Goku with clothes that be able to withstand SSJ2 power.

RPG:
Who's to say 10 isn't near death for them? If someone has 45,000 total and they have 10, they're pretty damn close to death if you ask me. They're pretty much unable to do anything.

Goku's reaction:
Yes, he did sense it, right before it hit him. Hence why it'd be delayed if he saw it or even if his heightened SSJ senses helped him catch a whiff of it.

Being dead:
I'm afraid you've been using a lot of the manga's logic here. When I stated that we were referring to the anime, you retorted that it simply didn't matter because the anime is an adaption of the manga and therefore everything is based from that. With that said, the anime especially here, is based from the manga. Which is, "all but dead". In your words, "The rules carry over".

Gohan:

-Goku states Gohan used up a lot of stamina/energy(both manga: Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. ... and anime). Highly unlikely when he’s supposedly only fighting as a FPSSJ AND didn't take much damage as Babidi states. It seems to points to Gohan using a higher level of SSJ.
-Gohan couldn't have been using SSJ2 on panel in his fight with Dabra, because well...he is clearly and undoubtedly just a FPSSJ.
-Babidi complains about not getting enough damage energy…which would indicate that Gohan was not damaged much(his uniform is still intact when it starts showing the on panel fight. On panel we only see him take damage from one attack the entire duration of the fight...in which finally damages his uniform).
-And to wrap it up: It’s flat out said there was an off panel fight by the narrator.

I. Yes but that can be attributed to Gohan's fight on screen and off screen. Nothing points to Gohan being a higher level of SSJ, only the fact that you want him to be at that higher level. He could have simply tried using a couple of highly charged attacks.
II. Some people debate that, it seems rather subjective from what I've heard. Granted, his hair is SSJ2 but there's no lightning.
III. I don't see what this has to do with anything. You could chalk it up to the way the fight progressed with techniques, etc.
IV. That's rather indicated by the fact you can see they were already in a fight, so this statement is pretty redundant.

Cell and Pikkon:

I will admit that you've made your point and brought evidence that Cell was likely suppressed when he was defeated, and also reaffirmed that Paikuhan's attack > Suppressed Cell

Okay, so at least we can agree on this.

I'd honestly be equivalent to saying the gingerbread man Buruma's mom made had SSJ2 like powers in reserve, but couldn't access it because he was over baked to 550 degrees and eaten before he was given adequate recovery time.

I think I found a misunderstanding between us here. I said Cell initially had SSJ2 powers in reserve, that doesn't mean the power he had finally in reserve was anything near that. I've stated it's possible that he couldn't access what was left, but there's also the possibility that Cell's energy left was just so minuscule that he was either taking continuous damage sustained from the attack or simply because the power he recovered, which may or may not have been all of his reserves was just that, minuscule.

Explain to me why you think so. After we see him freed from the blood river: He wasn't bleeding, he wasn't unconscious anymore, he wasn't holding any area in pain. I don't see any valid reason to believe he was taking continuous damage.

Yes, but don't you see? That's exactly the point! Cell is implied to have recovered slightly, which goes down to what I said earlier. When you take away more than a user's current state, but they still have power in reserve, the negative number would logically be taken out of whatever reserve they'd have; y'know, so they wouldn't have a negative number (that'd be where overpowering his reserves comes in). That would mean Cell's either gaining battle power little by little or he instantly recovered to what was left:
I. Cell's taking continuous damage, so Cell's being taken from an already close to zero number, back down to zero. That'd make sense for how they were able to detain him into jail and whatnot.
II. Cell's recovering still, to whatever's left (that could be next to nothing, but still it'd prove to be higher than what Pikkon's attack was), you yourself pretty much just said he had more energy when he was being blasted into the tornado as opposed to his initial defeat.
III. Cell's recovered to whatever amount he can, rather it's 50, 100 or 200. It's still completely possible for that number to be above Pikkon's attack if you add it to his suppressed state along with whatever negative number had to be added in.

In continuation to what I said about 5 lines above, you're really going to need evidence to proclaim this if you truly want to have a credible theory. Like Titan and FindKenshi mentioned, Cell was defeated. I don't see enough basis to turn around and say that same Cell's maximum power is > that same attack that Paikuhan used to beat that Cell.

Well to start, I don't care what either of them've said seeing that they haven't read very much of this thread, as one of them's openly admitted; so I don't see the point in bringing those two up. You've more or less already called me credible on Cell's initial power being lower than his post-zenkai full power. So I'll kinda just reiterate myself in a different mannerism.

Cell's initial state is not his maximum state. Pikkon's attack is greater than his initial state. The negative damage is recovered from the reserves of his max that he wasn't using and slowly building up back towards whatever's left. What's left is anyone's guess, but Cell shows signs of recovering as you and I both insinuated as opposed to being unconscious. This would mean there's a vague recovery, whether or not that's all of his power or close to it doesn't matter.

[lash]

Perhaps it's from my own observation that you are as to why I've stated as much.

Maybe you perceive what you say differently in your head, which outcomes to a different interpretation.

Perhaps you should elaborate with specific examples pertaining to your statement.

Not uncommon for everyone in terms of written dialect.

Clothes:

Doesn't need to be. Kaio sent Goku an upgraded outfit(without his symbol on it), off panel. The same Goku goes on and dies, and in the anime meets a far more powerful Dai Kaio. Goku's gi is torn up in the fight with Paikuhan, and thus is in need of some new clothes. I wonder who could have given him some... The support is there. There's a very large potential for Goku's gi getting upgraded again. Either way you look at it anyway: It's 'subjective' the amount of power Vegeta put into the attack against Goku there. And since the Ki attack didn't erupt on Goku, it would be the same analogy as if a person was blocking while getting hit and pushed back by a vehicle.

Because you seem to think near death is based on percentages(which would make it subjective). When it's based on point value. The warriors can easily suppress their energy down to a normal value where they can open doors, take a shit, and sleep without causing havoc to the environment. If you consider 10% near death or whatever, you're essentially saying they are near death while doing such normal activities. This of course, undermines the meaning of near death. No one is going to say ~3 million Freeza was near death while fighting Goku compared to his absolute power of ~120+ million. There's no customizable option menu to change the indicator that flashes when you're RPG character is near death in Dragonball Z. If Gohan at 1 isn't near death, and if a freshly born Goku at 2 is far from near death... then near death would likely be under those values.

Don't really see where you're going with this. If he can sense it, it wouldn't really matter much if his body isn't fast enough to dodge it. In which it slightly was.

I said the rules from the anime Dragonball carry over to the anime Dragonball Z. I'm not using 'manga logic'. In the anime, which we're discussing, the line is how I said it.

@ Gohan
I. That would leave him open for a critical counter attack from Dabra(and it would be highly out of character, he isn't a novice at fighting by this point). In which, judged by his uniform, he has taken no damage...making it unlikely.
III. You're essentially restating the reason I'm suggesting as why Gohan's uniform wasn't torn from the beginning of the fight.
IV. The actual fight could have just started if we weren't told otherwise.

Yes, but don't you see?

I. But that's exactly what I asked you to explain. I don't see any valid reason or evidence to believe he was taking continuous damage.
II. Cell could just be recovering due to time(which ironically doesn't exist, but since you don't think time works that way, it's ok... ) he's given. Over complicating the scenario in an attempt to support a theory isn't necessary. After all, the Ginyu force...who were most certainly defeated by Goku, also regained consciousness and slight mobility like Cell.
III. Even if I choose not to argue against this, and say "sure, it may be possible". You're still not realizing that there is still no evidence at all. Not in the manga, not in the anime, supporting that the possibility of "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" is anything higher than .000000001%.
Now if I choose to argue against this, I can say: If Cell barely has energy to save himself from needles with his leftover power...the likelihood he has any Ki (as in actual fighting energy, or even Ki to merely fly. Not Ki to just flail around as you're falling) left from Paikuhan's attack is as low as the percentage above.

Cell's initial state is not his maximum state. Paikuhan's attack is greater than his initial state. The negative damage is recovered from the reserves of his max that he wasn't using and slowly building up back towards whatever's left. What's left is anyone's guess, but Cell shows signs of recovering as you and I both insinuated as opposed to being unconscious. This would mean there's a vague recovery, whether or not that's all of his power or close to it doesn't matter.

Just like you said you would, you're more or less reiterating what you've already said. Like I've said, I'm quite familiar with your theory. What you've said is the basis for your theory. But what you haven't said is the evidence supporting the theory's existence from the manga, guidebooks, anime, toei themselves, etc. on why anyone should believe "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack."

Again, I'm quite sure I understand your theory. Paikuhan's attacks defeated a suppressed Cell. Sure Paikuhan's attack was greater than cell's initial state. But full stop there. Let's challenge this 'negative damage'. Let's put this claim to the test and see if it holds. 50% Freeza almost died by the Genki Dama.

Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death… (same statement in the anime)

Are you about to imply that the Genki Dama was greater or near 100% Freeza's power, since Freeza by definition had half of his power in reserve yet still stated he almost died. And if this isn't the case, and the Genki Dama was at least just greater than 50% Freeza...Freeza would have taken negative damage. Let us use your number type examples:

Since the Genki Dama obviously had to be > 50% Freeza, let's just say 70.

50% Freeza: 60, with 60 in reserve(100% = 120)
Genki Dama: 70

Freeza would be at -10 after the attack. Freeza obviously wasn't negative or dead, so lets say he draws +20 from his reserves for his post Genki Dama power:

Freeza after Genki Dama: 10, with 40 in reserve

Freeza eventually goes 100% which we can more than safely assume is all his power:

100% Freeza after Genki Dama: 50

...So we pretty much have 100% Freeza post Genki Dama attack being weaker than 50% Freeza.

Do you support the fact that 100% Freeza that we were shown and possibly even SSJ Goku were weaker than 50% Freeza before the Genki Dama attack? Seems a bit silly to me. And the reason for doing this tends to be just to overate Freeza's True 100% maximum power. It's pretty much grounds for a statement like "100% Freeza maximum > SSJ Goku > 100% Freeza post Genki Dama"

As you can see, and just as I said in III. "sure, it may be possible". The likelihood however, is probably no more than .0000000001% and there's no suggestion anywhere in the anime, manga, or supplemental material support for it. That's essentially how your theory is being perceived as. Which is why I'm constantly asking you in every post to give actual evidence for "Cell's maximum power > Paikuhan's attack." Otherwise I don't see how it could be considered anything but a silly theory.

I'll go ahead and repost my main focus on this argument:

The issue I have with your theory: as in "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack"... is that there is truly absolutely no evidence for it. Like literally, at all. I will admit that you've made your point and brought evidence that Cell was likely suppressed when he was defeated, and also reaffirmed that Paikuhan's attack > Suppressed Cell ...But quite frankly you still haven't been able to give one support, reason, or evidence on why anyone should think "Cell's maximum > Paikuhan's attack" without seeming like there is some sort of biased motive behind it(overrating Cell). That's pretty much the central focus of this debate in my eyes. Once you can bring enough good substantial evidence supporting it, even I'd probably consider it. But if you can't...well I hope you now understand why I or perhaps even others won't take such a theory seriously in the slightest.

[Perfect]

Clothes:
Nothing suggests Kaio can keep "upgrading" his clothes or has. It would have been stated later on. By this logic, everyone should know the Kaio-ken and Genki-Dama. Nothing implies his clothes were upgraded either. Nothing implies Kaio could upgrade his clothes to even close of a level that'd help. Remember Kaio and Goku were still under 10,000 battle power and Vegeta's attacks effortlessly destroyed his clothes. There's nothing to say Kaio learned some magical trick to make his clothes so impervious to damage that it'd reflect SSJ2 attacks. It really doesn't matter what level Vegeta through into the attack, it was clearly SSJ or higher at that point, so that points moot.

RPG:
You forget that suppressing power adjusts their max power variable, much like a video game would treat it. 3 million would be Freeza's max at whatever percentage of power he was using, thus that'd be the max based on that percentile. It only becomes near death based on the percentile of the max power variable.

Goku's reaction:
He didn't sense it until it was near him, thus the reactions delayed in comparison.

Being dead:
Why would the logic magically change as you've put it? You've listed examples in the manga, which have been littered throughout this entire argument. Plus, that line is adapted to be what it was from, there's no indication of them trying to change the rules.

Gohan:
I. Who's to say it didn't leave him open to a critical counter attack? Vegeta states he's rusty and states he could easily beat Dabra, thus implying he's lost his battle sense. It's not like Gohan displayed expert movements during the fight. Who stated it had to be a a chi blast that countered? It could have been a heavy melee attack.

III. Then further elaborate your point in what you said, because that's all I got out of it.

IV. That's true, though it'd be more subject to interpretation. Granted it still seems redundant to state such since we both acknowledge it.

Pikkon and Cell:

I. It's possible for him to is all I was saying, meaning it's just as much true as it is false. That's namely why I didn't put my entire argument on that.
II. The Ginyu's could have simply recovered to one battle power by that instance. Remember that they'd have been out for quite some time, from Goku's attack, which showed little signs of effort. There's no other explanation aside from that they recovered by that time. If they had negative damage that couldn't be recovered they'd be dead, so it's just likely it takes more time to recover that from just zero when they're dead. You could also say that for Cell, but Cell actually showed faster signs of recovering, likely seeing that he had power in reserve.
III. I'm afraid there is evidence towards it since Cell shows signs of recovering.

It is indeed a low percentage, given the amount of energy to counteract the attack from a negative and the recovered.

Freeza:
By that logic since SSJ Goku was battered around and heavily weakened, he wouldn't be at 150 million. SSJ is never shown to revitalize a user to 100% of their power. Even if we didn't factor in the negative numbers in this scenario, it's still flawed seeing that the Genki-Dama would obviously weaken Freeza to the point of where his maximum wouldn't be very much stronger than his initial states against Goku. If you look at Daiz #7's battle power listening,
Goku - 3 million upon being healed.
SSJ Goku - 150 million

By what logic would Goku be at 150 million after he was beaten down to the point of where he could barley stand up? I've always treated those numbers as, that's what they should be at if they weren't damaged.

I've given plenty of reasons, Cell shows signs of recovery meaning that the negative damage was recovered and that he was slowly building back up further.

[paperbowser]

Perhaps you should elaborate with specific examples pertaining to your statement.

Not uncommon for everyone in terms of written dialect.

Why should I have to list examples of something everyone does? Are you that stupid? I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but from reading your posts, you come off as a forgiener almost that has troubles with English.

[VegettoEX]

Are you that stupid?

Are you not paying attention to your warnings at all? Anything else like this, and you will be temporarily banned from posting.

you come off as a forgiener almost that has troubles with English.

If you are a native English speaker, based on what you just wrote, you probably shouldn't be criticizing others' writing styles.

You're either going to start acting polite and contributing to conversations in a worthwhile way, or you're not going to contribute to anything here at all.

(Why is it so difficult for all of these versus topics to continue onward for even a couple pages? I asked you all to prove why they're worthwhile, and you've done the exact opposite.)

[Perfect]

I guess this is a versus topic, granted I never really thought of it that way. I always figured versus topics were more so about the characters fighting and who'd win as opposed to who was stronger based on analysis. Basically what's so difficult this time around is how each example brought forth goes into further interwoven arguments. I've brought forth my theory which is completely plausible and has evidence towards it (which he frequently just says isn't evidence), even though I've acknowledged his now, several times as being just as plausible. The point was just that, to figure out who's stronger. I've concluded that, well, I find the argument to be rather subjective as to who's stronger in the end, but logically I'd believe for Cell to be stronger for well, pages and pages of arguments.

Just because A beat B, does not make B stronger.

[paperbowser]

Are you that stupid?

Are you not paying attention to your warnings at all? Anything else like this, and you will be temporarily banned from posting.

you come off as a forgiener almost that has troubles with English.

If you are a native English speaker, based on what you just wrote, you probably shouldn't be criticizing others' writing styles.

You're either going to start acting polite and contributing to conversations in a worthwhile way, or you're not going to contribute to anything here at all.

(Why is it so difficult for all of these versus topics to continue onward for even a couple pages? I asked you all to prove why they're worthwhile, and you've done the exact opposite.)

Freeza's a mean, angry, inconsiderate person. I don't see how my attitude can't be driven from a character pertaining to what lead to this forum's creation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also stated how I didn't try to come off as mean in mentioned post. Furthermore, I've purposely made grammatical errors so the original-poster would feel better about himself. That's nice of me.

If versus topics are so difficult, why not lock this one? Isn't there already one?
Also, why does it always say you're offline? I'd like to know if you're on or off.

[VegettoEX]

lash and Perfect, I genuinely wonder if you're willing to be open and accept anyone else's viewpoint on these matters. I see one little persuasion going on with one little tidbit, but that's about it. You seem stuck in your ways, and mostly unwilling to compromise. That's not a "discussion".

Freeza's a mean, angry, inconsiderate person. I don't see how my attitude can't be driven from a character pertaining to what lead to this forum's creation.

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. Freeza is not a real character. You are a real person. You agreed to a certain set of rules, and if you're not willing to follow them, we're not willing to have you.

but I also stated how I didn't try to come off as mean in mentioned post

You don't really get to ask if someone's stupid and then take it back as if it means something. See: agreeing to a certain set of rules.

Furthermore, I've purposely made grammatical errors so the original-poster would feel better about himself. That's nice of me.

This is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. There's no need to act this way.

[paperbowser]

Freeza's a mean, angry, inconsiderate person. I don't see how my attitude can't be driven from a character pertaining to what lead to this forum's creation.

I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. Freeza is not a real character. You are a real person. You agreed to a certain set of rules, and if you're not willing to follow them, we're not willing to have you.

but I also stated how I didn't try to come off as mean in mentioned post

You don't really get to call someone stupid and then take it back as if it means something. See: agreeing to a certain set of rules.

Furthermore, I've purposely made grammatical errors so the original-poster would feel better about himself. That's nice of me.

This is one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard. There's no need to act this way.

Freeza's a real character from Dragon Ball Z. Just as mandatory usage of this forum suggests, I'm willing to follow through my agreement. Happy Valentines Day, VegettoEX!

[Perfect]

lash and Perfect, I genuinely wonder if you're willing to be open and accept anyone else's viewpoint on these matters. I see one little persuasion going on with one little tidbit, but that's about it. You seem stuck in your ways, and mostly unwilling to compromise. That's not a "discussion"

Well I've accepted it as plausible, no more than mine actually. That was a few pages ago, when Saiga asked me about it. However about as many times, he's openly stated there's a ".0000000001" percent chance that anything I've stated could ever happen (referring to the main medium of the argument). On some notes I really was wondering that though, seeing that we're just going in circles.

If versus topics are so difficult, why not lock this one? Isn't there already one?

I suppose technically, there is another thread for this. Granted I felt it'd be better seeing how large of a debate I knew this would become.

[cyberlord34]

Both lash and Perfect have no fucking idea what they're talking about, seriously. Cell would be stronger because there's no way in hell Goku could get that fucking strong over the limited amount of time he was there. You're creating hell of a fucking plot hole if you think that. Goku fought evenly with Pikkon and therefore should be regarded as weaker than Cell.

[VegettoEX]

Issuing yet another account warning.

I don't know where you people are coming from, or if it's some coordinated effort to reign Hell upon this community, but it's not welcome. If you're for real, you agreed to a certain set of rules prior to registration, and if you're not willing to follow them, we're not willing to have you as contributing members.

[paperbowser]

Both lash and Perfect have no fucking idea what they're talking about, seriously. Cell would be stronger because there's no way in hell Goku could get that fucking strong over the limited amount of time he was there. You're creating hell of a fucking plot hole if you think that. Goku fought evenly with Paikuhan and therefore should be regarded as weaker than Cell.

Vs threads are stupid anyway, why even bother to fuel it, we know cell should logically be stronger, but both of them choose to go into unnessicary detail

[cyberlord34]

Both lash and Perfect have no fucking idea what they're talking about, seriously. Cell would be stronger because there's no way in hell Goku could get that fucking strong over the limited amount of time he was there. You're creating hell of a fucking plot hole if you think that. Goku fought evenly with Paikuhan and therefore should be regarded as weaker than Cell.

Vs threads are stupid anyway, why even bother to fuel it, we know cell should logically be stronger, but both of them choose to go into unnecessary detail.

Yeah I agree. There's no point in this thread, I mean just look at it.

@EX
Well I'm sorry, but I find some of these arguments to be really off topic and dumb. What does Gohan being SSJ2 against Dabura have anything to do with this? Or clothes being affected by chi (seriously lash?) or even the mistakes in the guidebooks (looking at you Perfect)? I'll try and tone myself tone for the sake of my consented agreement.

[FindKenshi]

(Why is it so difficult for all of these versus topics to continue onward for even a couple pages? I asked you all to prove why they're worthwhile, and you've done the exact opposite.)

Because they're going about it the wrong way. There has to be a mediator between the two of them, a 3rd party neutral to either side of the debate. Also, it's important that they list references either from the source material, or the supplemental material, to back up each and every piece of evidence.

Anything without a source behind it, is subject to omission.

Furthermore, and I'm by no means trying to offend, but it would appear as though one or more members of this debate, is emotinoally invested in the subject. Just read the first page of this thread alone, and you will see the frustration boiling to the surface.

Really, I think "Versus debates" are the absolute cornerstone of Dragon Ball fandom, but if done the wrong way, yeah then it will lead to responding to each and every line of your opponents post, really just a war to undermine the opponent eventuall, rather than actually talking about the subject material.

Perfect, lash, the two of you need to start back from square one, I think, and ignore everything you've posted thus far. I can mediate between the two of you, if you want to do this, just let me know. However, since I've already stated my personal stance on the subject being debated, then maybe I'm not the best for the job. In which case, I would invite a member of the Clean Up Crew to directly observe and mediate.

[FindKenshi]

/removed