The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Fox666]

I have Cui at 11,500. Vegeta killed him with a Kiai attack, there is no way Cui is at 18,000.

Well didnt Freeza sad in manga that Cui is much stronger than Vegeta when he was on earth ? Dodoria states Vegeta was never above 18,000 which means Freeza knowd Vegeta max was 18,000 and he says Cui is much stronger,,,i dont get that part but Daizenshuu clearly correct that yust like Cuis words,,,meaninig Vegeta equal to Cui and Vegeta 24,000 owns Cui who was 18,000....

You know, I was answering to the guy who said Nappa should be be at 6,500, so I wasn't being serious about it. My point is that if someone can say that the battle powers in the guidebooks are "wrong", I can also say the same about the battle powers in the manga.

[FNF]

But the statement was clearly derived from the manga (Goten making Gohan to put in the utmost effort just to block a hit from Goten) as is the base Trunks ~ c18 statement (Trunks fighting near evenly with c18 in a clown suit with Goten slowing him down) so it really applies to equal forms.
The whole potential thing doesn't really make sense imo.

One could also argue SSjin Trunks (post Budokai training*)>SSjin Goten(*)>SSjin Teen Gohan based off of this comparison;

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... n_/145.jpg

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... n_/191.jpg
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... n_/192.jpg

Any way you put it, the SSjin kids have to at least rival SSjin Gohan.

[FNF]

I have Cui at 11,500. Vegeta killed him with a Kiai attack, there is no way Cui is at 18,000.

Well didnt Freeza sad in manga that Cui is much stronger than Vegeta when he was on earth ? Dodoria states Vegeta was never above 18,000 which means Freeza knowd Vegeta max was 18,000 and he says Cui is much stronger,,,i dont get that part but Daizenshuu clearly correct that yust like Cuis words,,,meaninig Vegeta equal to Cui and Vegeta 24,000 owns Cui who was 18,000....

You know, I was answering to the guy who said Nappa should be be at 6,500, so I wasn't being serious about it. My point is that if someone can say that the battle powers in the guidebooks are "wrong", I can also say the same about the battle powers in the manga.

Wellllll...here's the thing. These two statements don't make any sense if you think Nappa is only 4,000;

Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa
Vegeta: “Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He’s not an opponent you can’t take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!”

Context: talking about sensing ki
Vegeta: “It was simple once I got the gist of it. But it’s no use if you’re focused just on power, like you guys or Freeza…I was like that too until recently…”

The second statement is clearly referring to when he (Vegeta) was still relying on the scouters ['focused just on power' and the context being Ki sensing vs scouters]. So the point I'm making here is Nappa's scouter number should always be rivaling Goku's (8,000...anything but 4,000). It's only when he wasn't in his right mind (when he realized Goku's pl was ~5,000 and then was 'over 8,000') he wasn't capable of fighting Goku.

[Fox666]

Wellllll...here's the thing. These two statements don't make any sense if you think Nappa is only 4,000;
(...)
The second statement is clearly referring to when he (Vegeta) was still relying on the scouters ['focused just on power' and the context being Ki sensing vs scouters]. So the point I'm making here is Nappa's scouter number should always be rivaling Goku's (8,000...anything but 4,000). It's only when he wasn't in his right mind (when he realized Goku's pl was ~5,000 and then was 'over 8,000') he wasn't capable of fighting Goku.

The problem is that you are estimating the numeric proportion beetween two character, and the manga has never been very consistent on it.

But the statement was clearly derived from the manga (Goten making Gohan to put in the utmost effort just to block a hit from Goten) as is the base Trunks ~ c18 statement (Trunks fighting near evenly with c18 in a clown suit with Goten slowing him down) so it really applies to equal forms.

As far the manga goes, No.18 had the upper hand against Trunks. He was being pushed and couldn't keep up with her speed.

Besides, you shouldn't take each line of the Daizenshuu to the letter. It is not like the Daizenshuu was really trying to tell us who was stronger, but was just describing one event in the manga. And it was really vague, it says Trunks had an even fight, but doesn't describe his form or anything (probably because it doesn't matter).

[FNF]

The problem is that you are estimating the numeric proportion beetween two character, and the manga has never been very consistent on it.

I don't see how I am. In Vegeta's mind higher/roughly equal battle power = winner/possible winner. It was only after Goku's KHH slightly overwhelmed Nappa's 'BLAARRGH' (which shouldn't amplify battle power really) when Vegeta realized he was capable of beating Nappa. There are just too many things after Nappa was in his right mind which points towards Nappa~Goku (w/o Kaioken) in terms of battle power. I wouldn't be surprised if whoever came up with the pls looked at Nappa's reactions to the 5,000 and over 8,000 reading and then looked at the first part of the fight and thought 'hey, he has to be under 5,000 riiiiii~ght?'. Judging by the other pls they came up with in the original source (Popo>God, Piccolo Daimao>God, Karin>Goku 22nd) I really wouldn't be surprised.

As far the manga goes, No.18 had the upper hand against Trunks. He was being pushed and couldn't keep up with her speed.

Besides, you shouldn't take each line of the Daizenshuu to the letter. It is not like the Daizenshuu was really trying to tell us who was stronger, but was just describing one event in the manga. And it was really vague, it says Trunks had an even fight, but doesn't describe his form or anything (probably because it doesn't matter).

As I said though, Trunks was being held back by Goten in a costume noted to be screwing them over. It was like Trunks was fighting without legs lol. It's possible the writers were taking this into account (base Trunks~c18>/>base Trunks (Clown suit).

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I agree the phrasing is a little off and shouldn't be taken literally. 'Relatively equal' will of course be a more appropriate phrasing in both statements regarding the kids.

[Mystic Gohan]

I have Cui at 11,500. Vegeta killed him with a Kiai attack, there is no way Cui is at 18,000.

Well didnt Freeza sad in manga that Cui is much stronger than Vegeta when he was on earth ? Dodoria states Vegeta was never above 18,000 which means Freeza knowd Vegeta max was 18,000 and he says Cui is much stronger,,,i dont get that part but Daizenshuu clearly correct that yust like Cuis words,,,meaninig Vegeta equal to Cui and Vegeta 24,000 owns Cui who was 18,000....

You know, I was answering to the guy who said Nappa should be be at 6,500, so I wasn't being serious about it. My point is that if someone can say that the battle powers in the guidebooks are "wrong", I can also say the same about the battle powers in the manga.

So you want to explain to me how someone who is 2x weaker than goku can possibly beat him by vegeta' words? Awesome and when you take everything the daishenzuu says rather than cherrypick everything you like, come back.

[Son_Gohan]

As I said though, Trunks was being held back by Goten in a costume noted to be screwing them over. It was like Trunks was fighting without legs lol. It's possible the writers were taking this into account (base Trunks~c18>/>base Trunks (Clown suit).

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I agree the phrasing is a little off and shouldn't be taken literally. 'Relatively equal' will of course be a more appropriate phrasing in both statements regarding the kids.

However you're making the assumption that #18 was using her full strength against someone she initially viewed as being a random human participant.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Again, that's what the story heavily implies: Gotenks was on the verge of killing Boo, but defused before he could do so.

This is something I am going to disagree with you. The damage Evil Boo received until then was nothing and he was just fine before fighting Gohan. And a Kamehameha alone won't decide a battle, multiples special techniques have been used and Evil Boo can fire a Kamehameha too.

I think he needed time to "regenerate" from Gotenks' assault. If Gotenks had fired off that Kamehameha before Boo had time to and subsequently destroyed the ashes, Boo would be done for. Just like with Gotenks' Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack.

South Kaioshin is weaker than a ssj2, It's stated by none other than Kaioshin himself that every kai had tried to pull out the Z sword but failed, Gohan as a ssj managed to do it. Plus, Kaioshin did actually say kid boo > super boo : The heart which he gained by lowering his power through absorption has returned "back to the way it once was". He is clearly stating that all the evil that was locked away from a good heart, lowered his power. Removing Good boo (which contained all the kai influence), it was stated that his power was growing. It doesn't make sense to remove the power of the kais, and then draw on the power of the kais. The power boo was feeding off of was none other than his very own.

PLUS, here is what's stated as buff boo form is turning into kid boo. "Goku and vegeta have scared looks on their faces still in the manga panel", Goku says : I really wish he'd cut that out. Why would he want him to cut it out if he was getting "weaker"? So again, the buff boo fan theory can't possibly work because there are no more kais connected to boo.

Goku and vegeta underestimated boo in the beginning on his size, but then admit they can't deflect boo's blast. Goku and Vegeta crushing the potara, had nothing to do with Boo's power, it had to do with saiyajin pride, and Goku later admits acting too cocky and shouldn't have crushed the potara. So it had to do with Goku being too cocky. Vegeta openly admits : That boo is far stronger than I imagined". Tell me how boo is so strong when he supposedly gotten "weaker"? lol, they clearly underestimated him. moving on.

Goku states that a genki dama won't work no matter how much little bit of genki they take. Vegeta states that they won't take a "little bit", they will push everyone right up to their very limits, meaning they took everything they could possibly give. This is when Goku starts saying "ki", in regards to the Genki dama instead of "genki". The Ki part was referring to the huge portion they were giving and Gohan gave his ki to the genki dama, and it was stated to not be enough. Gohan is stronger than super boo, and since Kid boo is stronger than Super boo, I think we know the obvious answer to this.

No where in the manga itself does it indicate that Boo got weaker. His power is never stated to go down after his transformation is complete. Kaioshin states that Boo got all his power back that the good heart he gained locked away his evil which brought him under control. Haven't you noticed by now that Evil is what gives boo his power? Fat boo needs to get angry to access evil which makes him stronger. Super boo is technically = fat boo since they are made up of the same components. The only difference is Super boo has all that evil that fat boo had a hard time accessing completely and it's all brought out without the need to get angry. Though Super boo is still restricted quite some because of Good boo (the Kai holder). Once he is torn out, His heart started changing back to complete Evil as his power was growing.

This also applies to Majin vegeta, it's exactly how he got up to ssj2 goku's level. Babidi possessed his heart with djinn evil allowing his ki to increase. So feel free to fight my claims, but it's just the way I ultimately see it and always will. I just don't see one ounce of evidence in the manga claiming that Kid boo is weaker. There is no dialog supporting this but rather supporting Kid boo > super boo as stated by Kaioshin and Goku saying his power was growing.

The Japanese anime itself states it like 6 times that Kid boo > super boo so it does validate my interpretation. The Daizenshuu's themselves state that only Goku is capable of defeating Kid boo and is #1. Vegeta restates this same message by saying "you are the only one capable of defeating him Kakarotto, you are #1". And as for Goku's claim inside Super boo's body about if they went outside, that they would get killed "in the state they were in", moments later he says to boo's face that he can beat him which tells us that Ssj3 is a last resort, but then Super boo confirms : No, you can't defeat me when you guys are far smaller than fleas. Which is true as Ssj1 goku failed to blow a huge hole in his body, so that indicates why Goku never even turned ssj3 inside his body, because he was saving it for if he finds a way to get back to normal size. Right before Goku's fight with Kid boo, he confesses to holding back so that the newer generation could fight Boo which is why he decided not to beat fat boo. (As he also restates in Boo's body that he can beat super boo and has no choice)

The Daizenshuu's also confirm "not even full power Goku can defeat kid boo", which again validates that Goku was going all out and states he has been trying to kill boo the whole fight but hadn't got the necessary energy to wipe him out. The "full power" Goku was referring to to try and wipe out kid boo was a power beyond his normal limitations, but due to living body restrictions, all that strain was eating away that gathered ki.

Once Goku shows his true colors in Ssj3 is when Vegeta confesses that Goku is strongest and the only one capable of defeating kid boo whereas in the Cell arc, everyone confesses that ssj2 gohan is the only one capable of defeating Cell.



Later on in the Kid boo situation, when Goku asks if vegeta's plan was to have both Gohan AND Gotenks come help "fight" Boo, Vegeta refuses simply because he obviously standed by what he said earlier about only Goku being able to defeat him. (Vegeta was watching every fight from Gotenks, Gohan and Super boo unfold with King yama by his side", this is heavily implied as Vegeta knew about ssj3 and about boo's earlier forms like Grey boo.

Again, this is how I see it. I won't change my view so if you disagree, then so be it.

[Rocketman]

Unless you think base Goku could defeat base Gotenks, there is no reason to assume he suddenly gets stronger at SS3.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Unless you think base Goku could defeat base Gotenks, there is no reason to assume he suddenly gets stronger at SS3.

I totally believe that Base Goku > Base gotenks.
The Daizenshuus state "Gotenks hurriedly trained in the room of spirit and time and as a result, his strength increased so much that he surpassed vegeta and the others" which already tells us that Ssj3 Gotenks >= super boo > fat boo > majin vegeta.

This makes perfect sense as Goku told piccolo in secret that he took Gotenks as a huge gamble, and as a result , Gotenks before going ssj3 was weak in comparison to Majin boo. Base gotenks was stated to be nowhere in Fat boo's league and in the manga he came back in a gag scene , the shit kicked out of him. Ssj1 gotenks ended up not grabbing the attention of anyone in other world on kais planet. Whereas ssj3 goku was a huge shocker and instantly reached other world. Piccolo never said that ssj1 gotenks could beat fat boo or super boo. Infact , he flew after Him , shitting his pants. In the Rosat piccolo flat out states he didn't think he could beat boo. Which was completely true. Super boo was toying with him and it wasn't until Gotenks turned ssj3 that piccolo had faith in him.

Goku did tell everyone at the lookout that he TOLD boo a "stronger fighter than him would appear to face boo. But notice how he never actually told boo that. He just wanted to keep him happy and not destroy things In the mean time. He didn't want everybody at the lookout to worry and then told piccolo in secret that he was willing to risk this huge gamble with the boys. Gotenks turning ssj1 for the first time was before the 2 days and he clearly was not ready or even grabbed the attention of the others in other world.

Again , this is how I see it and once again The daizenshuus validate my interpretation.

[Rocketman]

So what's with all the talk about Fusion being so awesome if Goten and Trunks fused isn't even as strong as base Goku?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

So what's with all the talk about Fusion being so awesome if Goten and Trunks fused isn't even as strong as base Goku?

It was awesome because they achieved ssj3 as little kids with fusion. It tells us that ssj3 was The destined transformation to take boo out the entire time. You need to remember that Goku took Gotenks as a huge gamble and he said they needed a miracle. That miracle ended up being ssj3.

The Daizenshuus state Gotenks surpassed majin vegeta after rosat training. Which means He went through a true multiplier that way and held his own against super boo

[Saiga]

That could mean his base form surpassed Majin Vegeta, we don't really know.

[dbgtFO]

*Super Buu < Kid Buu argument*
Again, this is how I see it. I won't change my view so if you disagree, then so be it.

How was any of that relevant to the posts you quoted?

Context: talking about sensing ki
Vegeta: “It was simple once I got the gist of it. But it’s no use if you’re focused just on power, like you guys or Freeza…I was like that too until recently…”

The second statement is clearly referring to when he (Vegeta) was still relying on the scouters ['focused just on power' and the context being Ki sensing vs scouters]. So the point I'm making here is Nappa's scouter number should always be rivaling Goku's (8,000...anything but 4,000). It's only when he wasn't in his right mind (when he realized Goku's pl was ~5,000 and then was 'over 8,000') he wasn't capable of fighting Goku.

Vegeta destroyed his scouter, so it's possible this was the point, he stopped being focused on power.

@SS2 Vegeta and SS2 Gohan vs. Broli. I think Vegeta is either equal to or stronger than Broli, so with Gohan as backup they should be able to win. By normal power level logic I think:
Gohan(start of Buu Arc) < Gohan(movie 10) < Gohan(25th tournament) < Gohan(Cell Games) = Vegeta(pre brainwashing), with Broli being somewhere between Gohan(movie 10) and Vegeta.

[Godo]

It was awesome because they achieved ssj3 as little kids with fusion.

That would be superfluous since the both of them had already achieved SSJ without breaking a sweat, and this is after the adult Saiya-jins have achieved SSJ2 to boot. That's perfectly enough to make them "awesome".
And also, after Goku's SSJ3 fight with Buu, everyone awed over Trunks' and Goten's power. All this was because of that they were both strong (look Piccolo's reaction when they show their full power) and did it with so much ease.
Also, just the fact that Trunks managed to even scrape Vegeta, and Goten to be able to spar with Gohan means simply that they are both really strong. To add, both Gohan and Vegeta needed to be in SSJ forms to be able to spar with them. Alas, their base forms are not stronger than Trunks' and Goten's SSJ forms, and thus they were stronger than (much, much stronger than) base Goku as Gotenks in base (due to the power of the fusion), firstly, and secondly just with his SSJ form, Gotenks could have a good chance against a SSJ2, and with SSJ3 he would demolish any SSJ3 but Vegetto (hypothetically).

If we use the multipliers here (SSJ: 50x, SSJ2: 100x, SSJ3: 400x), we can make a table.

Vegeta (base): 3,5
Gohan (base): 2,5
Goku (base): 4,0
Goten(base): 1
Trunks (base): 1,2
Gotenks (base): Let's say 8 [too little, but it still works to prove my point]

Vegeta (SSJ): 175
Gohan (SSJ): 125
Goku (SSJ): 200
Goten(SSJ): 50
Trunks (SSJ): 60
Gotenks (SSJ): 400

Goku (SSJ3): 800
Gotenks (SSJ3): 1600

It doesn't matter what they previously thought. The story shows that a base Saiya-jin can't beat any Super Saiya-jin in terms of power. And it also shows that Gotenks has formidable power just in base (thus he is much stronger than Goku or Vegeta in base). It also shows that Gotenks has formidable power in his SSJ from (thus meaning that he is stronger than Goku and Vegeta in his SSJ form). And it also shows that Gotenks as a SSJ3 could do something Goku never managed in the series, go head to head with Super Buu.
Thus any forms of Gotenks is stronger than Goku's and Vegeta's same forms, and that's how it is. Gotenks, at his "arrival" was much greater than any of the Earth's fighters seen at that point.
And he was surpassed only by Gohan and Vegetto.

[FNF]

As I said though, Trunks was being held back by Goten in a costume noted to be screwing them over. It was like Trunks was fighting without legs lol. It's possible the writers were taking this into account (base Trunks~c18>/>base Trunks (Clown suit).

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I agree the phrasing is a little off and shouldn't be taken literally. 'Relatively equal' will of course be a more appropriate phrasing in both statements regarding the kids.

However you're making the assumption that #18 was using her full strength against someone she initially viewed as being a random human participant.

And that's a common misconception but the fact of the matter is c18 knew all along that 'the mighty mask' wasn't normal;

Before the fight;
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

...And during;
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”

At the end of the day c18 recognized base Trunks, in the clown suit, as a formidable opponent.

@dbgtFO

I don't see how that indicates he stopped focusing on power. He still makes several comments about power straight afterwards lol

Also about the whole Broly thing, I still don't see how Broly can be that weak. My earlier posts proves that Piccolo doesn't see Teen Gohan and Prince of Destruction Vegeta as that different in terms of power.

@Owmydragonballs

Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start.

[Son_Gohan]

And that's a common misconception but the fact of the matter is c18 knew all along that 'the mighty mask' wasn't normal;

Before the fight;
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

...And during;
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”

At the end of the day c18 recognized base Trunks, in the clown suit, as a formidable opponent.

#18 wasn't trying to kill other participants or cause harm to the audience, so naturally she would have to be holding back to a certain extent. She cannot sense "Mighty Mask's" power nor did his actions warrant her to use her full strength based from what is shown.

When Trunks and Goten transform into Super Saiyan and fire an energy attack, #18's surprise wasn't from it being powerful, since she obviously knows what a SSj is capable of. But the fact that they would risk using an attack that strong in the first place given the circumstances of their battle. As it was expected that they would be holding back their strength.

[FNF]

And that's a common misconception but the fact of the matter is c18 knew all along that 'the mighty mask' wasn't normal;

Before the fight;
Context: talking about the two disguised as Mighty Mask
No.18: “…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…His small arms had surprisingly powerful punches.”

...And during;
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”

At the end of the day c18 recognized base Trunks, in the clown suit, as a formidable opponent.

#18 wasn't trying to kill other participants or cause harm to the audience, so naturally she would have to be holding back to a certain extent. She cannot sense "Mighty Mask's" power nor did his actions warrant her to use her full strength based from what is shown.

When Trunks and Goten transform into Super Saiyan and fire an energy attack, #18's surprise wasn't from it being powerful, since she obviously knows what a SSj is capable of. But the fact that they would risk using an attack that strong in the first place given the circumstances of their battle. As it was expected that they would be holding back their strength.

Dude, you're just making stuff up now. It was never suggested that C18 didn't use her full strength. You also make assumptions like her not being able to sense Ki although her statements and actions suggest otherwise.

[Kaboom]

Looks like the thread needs to be put back on track... again.

The Series Androids versus the Movie Androids.

17 and 18 find themselves in a 2-vs-3 battle against 13, 14, and 15. If this is too unfair in 17 and 18's favor, then 14 and 15 may be sacrificed so the twins are fighting two-on-one against Super 13 instead. If THAT'S too unfair in Super 13's favor, then 16 may join the fray to help 17 and 18.

[Fox666]

I have no idea. How strong Goku and the others are supposed to be in the movie?

Perhaps for the sake of the discussion I should assume the Saiyans are exactly like they would be against No.19 and 20?

If that was so, I would expect No.17 and 18 to win since they easily defeated Vegeta and Trunks. However they would be unable to do anything against Super 13 just like Piccolo.