Goku,Gohan reached limits in Base and SSJ in Time Chamber

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There's no limit in DB.

In the anime, sure. But in the manga? Piccolo, Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan & Chaozu gave up on trying to surpass the Saiyans because they couldn't, they reached their limits. As for the Saiyans, I've explained here:

Hmmm... Maybe Goku can't get much stronger, which would explain why there is not a very big difference between his Cell arc & Boo arc counterparts. Vegeta was the same too, so the only way for them to go stronger is by transforming into SSJ2, and for Goku, into SSJ3, reaching his limits. Gohan went beyond his limits thanks to Rou Kaioshin's ritual. Which means that Goku can't get significantly stronger, Vegeta can only by reaching SSJ3, and Gohan can't get any stronger at all. Goten & Trunks were still kids and didn't do any extensive, long time training, so there is still a long way for them to reach their limits. But these apply for the manga only. For the anime, that's a different story.

They can get a little stronger, but not by much, since they reached their limits. The only way for them to improve is by improving their skills & inventing new techniques. But then again, that's my personal belief. You can agree or disagree with me, since it's not 100% confirmed.

[Super Vegetto]

There's no limit in DB.

In the anime, sure. But in the manga? Piccolo, Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan & Chaozu gave up on trying to surpass the Saiyans because they couldn't, they reached their limits. As for the Saiyans, I've explained here:

Hmmm... Maybe Goku can't get much stronger, which would explain why there is not a very big difference between his Cell arc & Boo arc counterparts. Vegeta was the same too, so the only way for them to go stronger is by transforming into SSJ2, and for Goku, into SSJ3, reaching his limits. Gohan went beyond his limits thanks to Rou Kaioshin's ritual. Which means that Goku can't get significantly stronger, Vegeta can only by reaching SSJ3, and Gohan can't get any stronger at all. Goten & Trunks were still kids and didn't do any extensive, long time training, so there is still a long way for them to reach their limits. But these apply for the manga only. For the anime, that's a different story.

They can get a little stronger, but not by much, since they reached their limits. The only way for them to improve is by improving their skills & inventing new techniques. But then again, that's my personal belief. You can agree or disagree with me, since it's not 100% confirmed.

Your quote is pretty much correct. Goku trains in base and ssj in other world. Why ? Because they hide ssj2 for big event. Is it so hard to understand ? Others like Gohan, Vegeta are also training like that because of mastering skills. Gohan reached limit in Buu saga and he can only master skill and nothing else. Thats the way it goes.

[Fox666]

In the anime, sure. But in the manga? Piccolo, Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan & Chaozu gave up on trying to surpass the Saiyans because they couldn't, they reached their limits. As for the Saiyans, I've explained here:

But that's not a limit to their power, but rather the rate which their power grow. Technically there would be a limit because they won't live forever, but that's not a limit to the power itself.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yeah, it's just that it'd probably take them, like, hundreds of years to even reach Super Saiyan Gokuu on Namek's power, but Gokuu and the other Saiyans would've still been training and extended the gap between them even further. They didn't give up on training. Kuririn settled down with a family in the Boo arc, and Yamcha...is Yamcha.

[Bussani]

All of those fan-translated manga scans are terribly inaccurate and shouldn't be relied upon for anything. Better to look to Herms' translations.

Sorry for replying to little individual bits of your posts, but I don't know how else to address each mistake.

Goku to Piccolo : He cant get stronger. Only weaker.

Goku to Vegeta : Build up strenght isnt solution. (transformation)

This is a slight mistranslation. In Japanese he doesn't say he'll get weaker, or even that he can't get stronger. What he says is something like, "It's tough in the Room of Spirit and Time, even if you're not doing anything. You can't get enough rest like that. [ ] Trying to force our bodies to get any tougher than they are now would only be asking for pain. And that ain't training."

Vegeta to Trunks : If Goku already mastered that form he doesnt go ASSJ or USSJ when he whants to power up to that level.

This one's also worded a little differently. In Japanese Vegeta says that if they've gotten used to Super Saiyan as if it were their regular state, then they'll be able to raise their power without straining themselves. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Grades II and III.

Goku to Gohan : Something should come up (transformation for Gohan). Limits are reached.

This one's closer to being right. Goku says something should turn up and that they've trained hard, going right up to their limits.

But what limits? The absolute, build in limits they can never surpass? I don't think so, personally. To me it sounds more like the limit of how strong they can get in the remaining time. See, there's such a thing as over-training (or "under-resting" if you want to look at it a different way), and the way Goku talks about not being able to rest properly in the Room of Spirit and Time, as well as how they'd do better resting and doing some final training outside of the Room before the Cell Game, leads me to believe that this is what was limiting them. Too much training and not enough rest becomes counter-productive.

I'm proving you that Dbz logic is not same as Gt logic and that there is limit in dbz. Gohan is stated to got potentail unlocked to limit and he cant get stronger. You and other guy claim diffrent which is not the logic dbz is using.
Gohan after 100 years > Goku because Gokus potential powers cant get higher than Gohans but your logic is no limit which is also like base Goku gt after 10 years > ssj3 Goku Buu saga.

I feel like a broken record saying this in thread after thread, but this is why the word "potential" causes confusion. As far as I'm aware, in the Japanese version they never call what you're describing "potential". It's "dormant power"--power that a person already has inside them that is asleep. Gohan had his dormant power drawn out "beyond its limits", whatever that means. That tells us nothing about his absolute potential or supposed limits.

[hleV]

In Japanese Vegeta says that if they've gotten used to Super Saiyan as if it were their regular state, then they'll be able to raise their power without straining themselves. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Grades II and III.

Is this exactly what Goku says? For me it seems that he's saying that once they master SSJ, they will no longer need to go through transformations which strain the body. You're right, though, it's possible that it has nothing to do with the power achieved through Grade transformations.

[Super Vegetto]

All of those fan-translated manga scans are terribly inaccurate and shouldn't be relied upon for anything. Better to look to Herms' translations.

Sorry for replying to little individual bits of your posts, but I don't know how else to address each mistake.

Goku to Piccolo : He cant get stronger. Only weaker.

Goku to Vegeta : Build up strenght isnt solution. (transformation)

This is a slight mistranslation. In Japanese he doesn't say he'll get weaker, or even that he can't get stronger. What he says is something like, "It's tough in the Room of Spirit and Time, even if you're not doing anything. You can't get enough rest like that. [ ] Trying to force our bodies to get any tougher than they are now would only be asking for pain. And that ain't training."

Vegeta to Trunks : If Goku already mastered that form he doesnt go ASSJ or USSJ when he whants to power up to that level.

This one's also worded a little differently. In Japanese Vegeta says that if they've gotten used to Super Saiyan as if it were their regular state, then they'll be able to raise their power without straining themselves. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Grades II and III.

Goku to Gohan : Something should come up (transformation for Gohan). Limits are reached.

This one's closer to being right. Goku says something should turn up and that they've trained hard, going right up to their limits.

But what limits? The absolute, build in limits they can never surpass? I don't think so, personally. To me it sounds more like the limit of how strong they can get in the remaining time. See, there's such a thing as over-training (or "under-resting" if you want to look at it a different way), and the way Goku talks about not being able to rest properly in the Room of Spirit and Time, as well as how they'd do better resting and doing some final training outside of the Room before the Cell Game, leads me to believe that this is what was limiting them. Too much training and not enough rest becomes counter-productive.

I'm proving you that Dbz logic is not same as Gt logic and that there is limit in dbz. Gohan is stated to got potentail unlocked to limit and he cant get stronger. You and other guy claim diffrent which is not the logic dbz is using.
Gohan after 100 years > Goku because Gokus potential powers cant get higher than Gohans but your logic is no limit which is also like base Goku gt after 10 years > ssj3 Goku Buu saga.

I feel like a broken record saying this in thread after thread, but this is why the word "potential" causes confusion. As far as I'm aware, in the Japanese version they never call what you're describing "potential". It's "dormant power"--power that a person already has inside them that is asleep. Gohan had his dormant power drawn out "beyond its limits", whatever that means. That tells us nothing about his absolute potential or supposed limits.

First quote : Same thing Goku sad. Training and getting stronger is not an option. Transformation and training in new form is an option.

Second quote : Vegeta and Trunks strain themselves by going to eary in those forms. In english he says weight and in japanse strain because its what he puts. Its same thing. I dont know for japanese but Goku says to 50% Frieza if he goes full power he will put strain on him ( which is result of Frieza beeing Buff ).

Third quote : Limit is when they know they reached limit and i realized that before. If they dont have limit for base and ssj why would they transform more and more ? Because every form has limit.
The Saiyans train all day. I know what you mean by resting and not puting to much work on body. I go sometimes on gym and i know resting is one of most important things. We dont have saiyan logic or how much saiyan body neads to rest because it seams that someone like Vegeta never rests and still is getting more proggres. Gohan is human and he rests for 7 years and he gets weaker. Saiyans got stronger the more they train and less they rest. Goku was yust sure in Gohans ability so he sad why to try because i reached limit and we yust whait to test those limits, but he never knowed about new transformation. He though Gohans inner powers (transformation) is only way why Gohan is also stronger than him in base and FPSSJ and why Gohan can beat Cell.

Fourth quote : Only one we seen with dorment powers using trough all dbz is Gohan. I call it his potential limit. He gets dorment power unlocked to limit like Goku sad he reached limit in Cell saga. Gohans dorment powers are powers he unleashed with rage. The Old kai puts his dorment power to limit so thats where his potential stops. If its limit in those power, and you say it has nothing to do with potential, why Old kai says that it isnt everyihing in transforming in SSJ.
He knows Gohan had big potential (dorment powers) that in the end made him strongest unfused warrior.

And yes i belive dorment power saiyans have the limits because Old kai clearly says it but Gohan was yust special. Vegeta got unlocked dorment powers and he got to limit with SSJ2 like Goku. Why didnt Gohan use SSJ if multiply would make him stronger ? Because his dorment powers > ssj powers and you can see it trough all the dbz...There is a limit and almost everyone reached it in last saga of dbz.

[Bussani]

Is this exactly what Goku says? For me it seems that he's saying that once they master SSJ, they will no longer need to go through transformations which strain the body.

We were talking about what Vegeta said after seeing them exit the Room of Spirit and Time. As you say, Goku did say that removing the strain from regular Super Saiyan was better than transforming earlier on than that.

In english he says weight and in japanse strain because its what he puts.

He only says weight in those terrible fan-scanlations. Weight has nothing to do with anything, and to me it doesn't feel like transformations are implied either.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small!”

If they dont have limit for base and ssj why would they transform more and more ?

Because transforming is a way of tapping into more power faster. It's like asking what the point of transforming into an Oozaru was, or what the point of using the Super God Water was, or what the point of Kaio-ken was; they could have just gotten stronger, since they weren't at their limits yet, so such things were unnecessary by your logic.

We dont have saiyan logic or how much saiyan body neads to rest because it seams that someone like Vegeta never rests and still is getting more proggres.

And Goku is always a step ahead of him--especially when it came to the Room of Spirit and Time--so I'm more inclined to think Goku is the one who understands how to train properly.

Gohan is human and he rests for 7 years and he gets weaker. Saiyans got stronger the more they train and less they rest.

That's a weird thing to say. Seven years of resting is over-resting. And there's no evidence that Saiyans get stronger the less they rest. Since Goku more or says the opposite after the Room of Spirit and Time, I'd say that's not the case.

Fourth quote : Only one we seen with dorment powers using trough all dbz is Gohan.

Eh? Goku had dormant power drawn out by the Super God Water, and Kuririn had dormant power drawn out by the Namekian Elder. It seems like most people have varying amounts of the stuff. It would also be pretty absurd to say that Goku or Kuririn didn't get any stronger after having theirs brought out, so using dormant power as a measure of absolute limits seems off the mark.

[Super Vegetto]

Man you do realize weight aka strain ( Freeza is yust example ).

By your logic GT has perfect logic. Goku getting so much stronger after 10 years and in Super 17 arc after Baby saga Goku gets so much strong that SSJ Goku > Majuub and before that is was Majuub > SSJ3 Goku.

I'm staying on Gokus statment where he says they got to limit. Limit means transform and nothing else.

Yes its wierd thing even if its 1 year. Goku says they hit limit in manga. Gohan is stated to become weaker like Goku sad if they train in those forms or if they dont train which is way they nead to progress and to achive more forms.
Its even stated in manga that Gohan not only becomed weak but also lost touch with martial arts so 1 year of not training would also make him weak because of Gokus statment. If he only continued to train new form and mastering it the progress he achived, fpssj would stay the same.

Its stated as dorment power because of plot before dbz even existed. Why do you think Goku,Vegeta,Gohan trained in base and ssj before world tournament ? Because they are saving transformations for big events. Is it so hard to understand ?

Gohan didnt get full potential unlocked is the reason Krillin also had progress after that. Kais are doing the job done and techniques from others always have some things that are diffrent from Kais.

Example : Instant Transmission < Instant Movment, Old kai relsing potential > Guru relising potential, Potara > Fusion > Namek fusion

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But that's not a limit to their power, but rather the rate which their power grow. Technically there would be a limit because they won't live forever, but that's not a limit to the power itself.

Yeah, it seems like it works like that. For example, before reaching the limit, with a specific, hard training, one would go from 1000 to 5000. After reaching the limit, and doing the exact same training, he would go from 1000 to 1050. Like with the near-death power ups, before they could give a huge boost, now an insignificant. Maybe that's because the characters reached their limits.

[Super Vegetto]

But that's not a limit to their power, but rather the rate which their power grow. Technically there would be a limit because they won't live forever, but that's not a limit to the power itself.

Yeah, it seems like it works like that. For example, before reaching the limit, with a specific, hard training, one would go from 1000 to 5000. After reaching the limit, and doing the exact same training, he would go from 1000 to 1050. Like with the near-death power ups, before they could give a huge boost, now an insignificant. Maybe that's because the characters reached their limits.

In dbz its transformation imo. In real life its normaly if you train in gym every time the same for like 1 year you would ger progress but you will stop getting it so easy. Then you change it in diffrent workout to shock the body.

Goku clearly mastered FPSSJ but he and Gohan are using it yust to put less strain on body. He had that power all along in time chamber but they learned to put less strain on body to have better chance against Cell. What if Goku afte kamehameha in Cell face lost all enrgy. As a matter a fact i think he wouldnt even get to kamehameha part if he fight him right when he gets out of time chamber. He even says it like that.

[Gabool The Wild]

I don't think any of the characters reach a limit to their own power. I just believe that they are limited by the training they have at their disposal. It's like DBZGTKOSDH said, eventually the training at hand doesn't bear the same results that it once did. So in order to get more powerful better methods of training are required, and not everyone gets the training that Goku did in the afterlife.

[lash]

We've been over this.
There are no real limits for Saiyans in DBZ.
Only temporary ones.

[Super Vegetto]

I don't think any of the characters reach a limit to their own power. I just believe that they are limited by the training they have at their disposal. It's like DBZGTKOSDH said, eventually the training at hand doesn't bear the same results that it once did. So in order to get more powerful better methods of training are required, and not everyone gets the training that Goku did in the afterlife.

First of all saiyans are not humans. Second of all its transformation what makes things diffrent and not diffrent training. You do realize they train full body every day. This is not real life where you change workout methods to get diffrent results. Goku achived limit of SSJ state. Its called FPSSJ. There is no other way in improving in the strongest SSJ form without transforming in even more powerful state.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

First of all saiyans are not humans.

Saiyans ARE humans. Namekians too. Read this.

[Bussani]

Man you do realize weight aka strain ( Freeza is yust example ).

Apparently I don't. Weight isn't synonymous with strain. The strain Vegeta mentions in the quote above doesn't seem to be referring to Grades II and III and their weight at all. He doesn't say "They can avoid using transformations and straining themselves"--he says they won't strain themselves because they've made Super Saiyan like their basic state.

By your logic GT has perfect logic.

Why? I didn't say Goku could magically get hundreds of times stronger. There's a difference between having no limits and making enormous leaps in power for no reason. I also feel the same way as DBZGTKOSDH, basically: the stronger you get, the more radical training you need to become even stronger than that. It's the limits of the training methods available that truly limits their growth, in my opinion. The near-death-power-ups getting smaller definitely slows down their progress as well, but the transformations make up for that loss.

I'm staying on Gokus statment where he says they got to limit. Limit means transform and nothing else.

I'm not saying you can't interpret it that way. That way of thinking could be right. I'm just saying that not everyone sees it that way, and it's never good for a person to start thinking that their way is the only correct way. Gotta have an open mind.

Gohan is stated to become weaker like Goku sad if they train in those forms

But Goku never said that. Those bad translations you used made that up.

Its even stated in manga that Gohan not only becomed weak but also lost touch with martial arts so 1 year of not training would also make him weak because of Gokus statment.

Goku never made any statements about getting weaker, but of course your skills and strength degrade if you don't use them for a long time. The key is not to train too much and not to rest too much. It's a balancing act.

Gohan didnt get full potential unlocked is the reason Krillin also had progress after that.

Again, it's never called potential in Japanese. There's absolutely no indication that having all your dormant power brought out is the same as reaching your limits. Like I said, you're free to interpret it that way, but you can't prove that it's the only way to interpret it.

[Super Vegetto]

Man you do realize weight aka strain ( Freeza is yust example ).

Apparently I don't. Weight isn't synonymous with strain. The strain Vegeta mentions in the quote above doesn't seem to be referring to Grades II and III and their weight at all. He doesn't say "They can avoid using transformations and straining themselves"--he says they won't strain themselves because they've made Super Saiyan like their basic state.

Vegeta doesnt nead to say something about other forms. He says they wont put strain on body like he done which is result of faild process where he gets stronger. ASSJ and USSJ are parts of faild attempt to get stronger like Trunks mentioned that they can get stronger in fpssj but Vegeta responds they only wont put strain like he and Trunks did.

By your logic GT has perfect logic.

Why? I didn't say Goku could magically get hundreds of times stronger. There's a difference between having no limits and making enormous leaps in power for no reason. I also feel the same way as DBZGTKOSDH, basically: the stronger you get, the more radical training you need to become even stronger than that. It's the limits of the training methods available that truly limits their growth, in my opinion. The near-death-power-ups getting smaller definitely slows down their progress as well, but the transformations make up for that loss.

Here i yust say I'm staying on what Goku sad and that training and getting stronger isnt option when they master ssj.

I'm staying on Gokus statment where he says they got to limit. Limit means transform and nothing else.

I'm not saying you can't interpret it that way. That way of thinking could be right. I'm just saying that not everyone sees it that way, and it's never good for a person to start thinking that their way is the only correct way. Gotta have an open mind.

Yes against i know what you mean but its my opinion and its normal that someone has diffrent opinion so debate can be made.

Gohan is stated to become weaker like Goku sad if they train in those forms

But Goku never said that. Those bad translations you used made that up.

Its even stated in manga that Gohan not only becomed weak but also lost touch with martial arts so 1 year of not training would also make him weak because of Gokus statment.

Goku never made any statements about getting weaker, but of course your skills and strength degrade if you don't use them for a long time. The key is not to train too much and not to rest too much. It's a balancing act.

Gohan didnt get full potential unlocked is the reason Krillin also had progress after that.

Again, it's never called potential in Japanese. There's absolutely no indication that having all your dormant power brought out is the same as reaching your limits. Like I said, you're free to interpret it that way, but you can't prove that it's the only way to interpret it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

^ What the hell?!

[Saiga]

I don't think they reached the limits of base and Super Saiyan... they reached a sort of "temporary limit" that was broken when both of them unlocked SS2. The way I see it, the Saiyans hit a wall when they get close to a new transformation and they can't progress any more until they overcome that wall.

[Super Vegetto]

I don't think they reached the limits of base and Super Saiyan... they reached a sort of "temporary limit" that was broken when both of them unlocked SS2. The way I see it, the Saiyans hit a wall when they get close to a new transformation and they can't progress any more until they overcome that wall.

Well you yust proved my theory. Only thing is why would you say they didnt reached limits in base,ssj, if they hit wall ? You do realize Goku sad getting stronger isnt an option ( because he neads transformation that would give him enough space to get stronger ).