Dub-Bashing

[Eclipse]

I'll give the dub credit, there were times that the VA's really, really did great (Mainly Videogames)

Now that anyone thinks about it, why do anime voice actors sound better in video games than they do in the anime itself? It's not just DBZ, some other games use anime voice actors who generally sound way better than they do during the dub...

One of my favorite scenes is in movie 10, where Goku says something before appearing Gohan and Goten (I forget what he says), and that sound effect and the music comes on..It gives me chills, it's so good.

Goku: You have to use all the power you hold! There ain't anything else!.
Or something like that

[Victator Supreme]

I noticed on Budokai Tenkachi that they took some dialougue straight from the anime. The exchange between Piccolo and Broli was there.

[unstable_person99]

I remember switching my movie 6 DVD into the original, just to check it out, and then giggling and saying "They talk *giggle* so foony!!11."

Then, when I ... stopped being mentally retarded, I actually watched it, and grew to love it. I don't mind DB or Z so much dubbed, but after watching some of GT in Japanese, I relise why I hated it so much, I had watched the dub.

Yeah I thought the Japanese voices sounded funny too, until I started growing attached to them and I don't really mind the dub that much either except for the GT dub, man that sucked!

[Super Sonic]

Though I admit that I never really watched GT all that much, the opening theme's beat was nice IMO.

[Leotaku]

3 pages to read?? That's what I get for being off for over a day.
Well it took a while, but I did read it all, and thanks for all the input.

What pisses me off is altering the original premise of the show: i.e. changing character's names, storylines...Something that the One Piece dub is great about...

Do you mean that as in DBZ has done that, or you're just saying in general, you wouldn't like that?

masenko: Off-topic, but I just wanted to say that your animated avatar has a few other people's avatars in it, and for a second, I thought Chaos Saiyajin had made a double post.

The Japanese music was well… average (please don’t kill me) it wasn’t Yoko Kanno, but the insert songs and openings/endings were amazing. As a whole the Japanese character themes, insert songs and openings/endings were the only things that stood out, the BGMs were meh in opinion

I feel the same way. I have that 5 CD set (2 vocal CDs, 3 BGM CDs), and the BGM music, as a whole, I didn't enjoy that much. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I never heard them in context with how they were used during the show, but then again, that didn't stop me at all from enjoying the vocal songs. I LOVE the vocal songs.
Only a few BGM tracks stood out for me and grabbed my attention. I like Piccolo's theme.

I got excited when I heard they were dubbing it, but it left me with a bad taste in my mouth. There was just too much CHANGED. The music I loved, the voices I loved, even crucial plot points were all altered in some way.

Crucial plot points? Really?

Some arguments people make about Japanese versus English voices are invalid. First of all, these are two different languages and cultures.

I completely agree. While I said I never watched the original, I have heard some Japanese voices from the various games, and I really like them. Personally, I LOVE Goku's voice.
I also like a fair number of the dub voices too though. Like you said, these are two different cultures, and voice / casting choices will differ because of what that cultue may be used to, or how it perceives / envisions some things.
Who, in North America, would ever think to give the strongest man in the world one of the highest pitched and child-like voices in the show? North America just isn't used to that (and I can tell, by how many people I've seen ask why Goku's voice in Japanese is so weird; not necessarily on this forum, just...around).
Same with the music. In North America, people are probably used to aggressive rock during battles and action scenes, but the Japanese music takes a different approach, with a different mood and orchestral sort of sound. When comparing the two, I sometimes think it's overlooked that the cultures don't see everything the same way, and are used to different things. Then people say the rock music is stupid.
I'll be honest, the rock music in the video games and during the show gets me pumped up for a fight, and that's what I would want. The orchestral music doesn't do it as much for me.

When I heard Grand Kai's voice in Japanese I was shocked, it's high pitched, even more than Goku's, and it doesn't sound good, funny, but not good...

I don't remember who that is. Is there a Grand Kai and an Elder Kai? Are they 2 different people? I only watched those episodes like 1-3 times each, years ago, so I don't really remember.
I was thinking about that...old..Kai, in Budokai Tenkaichi. I love his Japanese "Hoi Hoi" when you do a fusion. I hate his hillbilly-like English "Hee hee!".

Those who mentioned Ian Corlett, which episodes did he do? I'm not sure which voice that is. I actually like Sean Schemmel's Goku, I think he kinda has that goofy, fun, happy, and youthful sound that reminds me of Nozawa's. I'm not saying he sounds like her, but I mean he reminds me of the personality I felt in hers. Like the scream I hear him do in Supersonic Warriors (when he gets hit hard). Or "Wow, it's so exciting!" in Budokai Tenkaichi.
I really like it. I don't remember what Ian Corlett's voice was though.

And I still don't know what was so bad about the GT dub, since I think I got a different dub than most people here. Mine was Blue Water's.

[Chaos Saiyajin]

Do you mean that as in DBZ has done that, or you're just saying in general, you wouldn't like that?

I'm just saying in general, the reason I hate Shaman King's dub. I hate the fact of Bra's name becoming Bulla. I mean what the fuck is Bulla? A Bull or something like that?

[Tsukento]

Unlike most, I started off with the Dragon Ball dub back in 1995, rather than Dragon Ball Z in 1996. I recall waking up early one Saturday morning and seeing some crazy kid in a blue outfit with a red pole knocking out some wolves.

Needless to say, I got hooked.

I watched up until the very end of Season 2 of Dragon Ball Z and then DVDs became available of the first three movies. My first viewing of Japanese Z was movie 2, The World's Strongest Guy. Goku sounded funny at first, as did Gohan and Kuririn, but I was digging the voices and the music. I looked into the Japanese version of the series as Season 3 was released later on. I was VERY shocked when one character sounded completely different than he was supposed to.

Freeza is that character. The Japanese version just had him marked dead on as to what a true villain is and how he was supposed to be. Not only did he have an incredible voice, but that tone in his voice was both smug and cocky while being polite about the fact that he thought he was better than everyone and would kill anyone at anytime.

Then when you look at both of his English voices, you notice he's been reduced down to sounding like an elderly woman who has nothing but really bad puns and homosexual undertones up his sleeve. Who can forget lines such as "Having these balls makes me want to caress them?" Or "Whatever turns you on, big boy?" That kind of attitude completely killed Freeza's character and ruined any kind of seriousness in him. Especially with the delivery of his voice actresses' lines.

Mind you, I loved some of the Ocean voices. And I also love some of the FUNi voices. But my place stays with the Japanese version. Although I do like Ian Corlett's version of Son Goku, which was absolutely perfect. Scott McNeil was the perfect Piccolo and DID sound almost better than the Japanese voice himself considering the tone of his voice fitting the one who was once known as the reincarnation of the Demon King. Eric Vale plays a good Trunks, while Chris Rager plays the perfect English voice for Mr. Satan. Dabra had a suprisingly awesome voice.

Along with these voices comes the awful set. You have Sean's version of Kaio-sama, which ruins his character of being a wise old man who simply likes to drop bad jokes to a nasaly pitched voice while snorting every time he laughs. Majin Buu was awful. I don't know why Christopher Sabat felt it was necessary to try to boost the comical sense of Z up in serious situations. But having Josh Martin make Buu speak like an idiot while using a high pitch sound to his voice didn't sound right in the slightest bit. Freeza was just awful, as I mentioned earlier. Then we have "Android" 19. What the HELL was up with the helium voice decision there? o_O;

Then came GT, which cased me to ultimately hate the dub all together. Eric Vale really shined as Trunks here, but the music by Mark Menza and near rewriting of the script killed it for me. The poor Para Para Brothers were turned from techno aerobics dancers into horrible rappers. The dual voice for Syn/Omega Shenron was alright, but Hidekatsu Shibata playing Yi Xing Long and returning to the Dragon Ball world as a voice actor even just for that character was much better (his previous role was King Chapa and went on to voicing Fuhrer King Bradley in Fullmetal Alchemist and the Third Hokage in Naruto).

All in all there's a bit of all three versions I like..except for GT. I can only take the Japanese version, even if that itself was hard to swallow on its own.

[Adnan]

Hmm...Well, you trying to dissuade him of his personal opinion is pretty stupid. I mean, him judging the way we prefer things is sorta bad too, but trying to change his opinions is almost like a dictatorship.

When I say "False", I'm responding to his assertion that people like the jp version just because it's the original, which is simply not true.

[Kirbopher]

I prefer dubs in general for a simple reason, I like to WATCH anime, not read subtitles. I like to WATCH the awesome animation that these various studios work their ass off to do. If I wanted to read it, then I get the manga, simple as that. HOWEVER, that does NOT mean that I hate Japanese versions in any way. I've watched fandubs of certain shows that aren't in the States yet, or shows that don't have any sort of uncut version on english DVDs. However, if it's possible, I'll watch the english verson instead.

Now, as for Dragonball Z, this and the other two DB series are sort of like the oddballs of FUNimation at this point, and I think that people who haven't really even seen any of their other licensed animes at this point don't really seem to get that. Nowadays, FUNimation does the more traditional dub adaptation of taking the original Japanese script, translating it, and usually onbly changing around a few things to fit lip flap, or making english counterparts of -san, -sama etc., just like companies like ADV, Geneon, Viz, and ones like that, and because of that, I don't bother watching the Japanese versions of shows like that since there wouldn't be much point to it. The only real exceptions to this method are Dragonball/Z/GT, Yu Yu Hakusho, and THINK Blue Gender. These are shows where they DO obviously use the same story, but prettymuch rewrite the script, add certain lines, and things like that. It's because of that that different method that actually draws me to watching the Japanese version in addition to the dub.

When I first bought "Kid Buu - Price Of Victory" on DVD, Uncut, I watched all three episodes in both languages. I didn't do that for the sake of comparison. I was already well atuned to the FUNimation Cast obviously, I had seen a little bit of the Japanese version of GT already, and I long over the Ocean Group switch, and I enjoyed both versions because it was two completely different ways of seeing the show, and I find that interesting. Two different soundtracks and two different sets of voice actors, both of which I think are great, and obviously two different scripts. It was almost like I got SIX episodes instead of just three. So I don't view the Dragonball dubs as so drastically different that "they made it into a completely different show and it sucks rarara~!", I view the two languaged versions as being two different experiences of a show I love.

At this point in time, I could really care less if people say "well the japanese version is better so there" or try to support their argument with the hell ever 'evidence' they have. I enjoy both languages, I just prefer english versions. People can have any preferece they want and that's fine with me. What I DON'T like, is when people are total JERKS about it. Wether it being dub fans bashing japanese version fans, or vice versa, it's stupid. But specifically, I don't like obnoxious people who deem people 'satantic' and 'insane' simply for having a preference of one over the other. I hate to say this, but people who I've found that act like that, are fansubbers, but I'm not gonna touch on that subject. The point is that people can have their own opinions, but I really think people need to just stop HATING everything, whatever it may be.

The last thing is with FUNimation. Now, I'm a gigantic FUNimation fan BECAUSE they introduced me to so many of the shows I love, the voice actors are some of the nicest people I've ever met, and I think that sometimes they get a lot of slack that they don't deserve. YES, they made a lot of changes to Dragonball Z; they made a lot of mistakes with the series even AFTER they severed their ties with Saban. That doesn't mean that they're responsible for all evils in the world, and that certainly doesn't mean they don't CARE about the series at all. At the very least, I'm happy when people can see that they've come a long way from where they once were. At the moment, Kodocha and Fullmetal Alchemist have become some of the MOST popular dubs in the anime world right now. Why? Because believe it or not, they learned from their mistakes BECAUSE of Dragonball Z. In fact, Daizenshuu EX is even partially responsible for that (that's not meant to sound like a bad thing, just wanted to point that out). They LISTENED to what the fans had to say, they TOOK the negative criticisms, and when they began to get the rights to more and more different series, they utilized that knowledge to improve, just like a PERSON would, and I think it's really payed off. Even in the case of the Dragonball series. Sure, they still have some of the things they screwed up on or things that a lot of fans dislike and can't change at this point in time, but just look at it:

-They actually created a seperate uncut version of the show when at the time, they could've just not cared at all, and went for the tv-audience and ONLY made an edited version.
-They kept the original score of Dragonball when they began to dub that show again.
-They hired Steve Simmons as their translator, and he IS a big DB fan. That alone says a lot.
-When Yu Yu Hakusho and Blue Gender were in production, they kept in mind all of the things they did in Dragonball and DBZ, extrappolating as much depth from both shows as possible to make sure they didn't give a repeat performance.
-The newer movies began to use much more faithful adaptations scriptwise, and the later parts of the Ultimate Uncut episodes, despite also using a similair formula as the old episodes and the Ocean dub of the Saiyan and Namek saga, were also extended upon so that the fans wouldn't just be getting a rehashed with literally the SAME thing as before. Not to mention the Spanish Dub that Mike and the others have talked about a lot, which even I've seen as well.
-People from FUNimation themselves, whatever part of the series in general they've been involved with, have never said anything about 'not caring' about the series. You've heard it on commentaries and interviews and things like that, and I've heard it from the people themselves.

That's all I have to say.

[Xyex]

Hmm...Well, you trying to dissuade him of his personal opinion is pretty stupid. I mean, him judging the way we prefer things is sorta bad too, but trying to change his opinions is almost like a dictatorship.

When I say "False", I'm responding to his assertion that people like the jp version just because it's the original, which is simply not true.

Not for everyone, but for some (and sometimes a lot) it is. I'll see that reason given as the main reason more times than not. "Oh, because it's the original, that makes it superior to the dub." I'm sure you could go to Japan, make an anime with the WORST voices and music ever heard, anywhere, dub it with the best voices and music ever, and people would still complain. Or, as I've mentioned before, get a cast that can do both the JP and English Voice Overs and you'd still get people complaining about the dub voices. Complaining about dubs is 'cool', apparently.

Anyway, as for me, I perfer the dub myself. I used to think it was because I'd seen the dub first, but I'm thinking that's not it these days, since I saw the JP version of Naruto first and still rather like the dub (course, admittedly, it is a superior dub). Still, there are some JP voices I do rather like. Videl and 18's, namely. And Freeza's laugh in the original is cool as well. One thing I don't accepts from people as a reason for liking the original over the dub is the original having better VAs (unless they know Japanese), cause unless you know the language you can't know the true quality of the voices, only get a feel of them, and that's not the same.

Music never has been an issue for me. My mind doesn't care about music when it's not the focal of the scene, and music was never a focus in DB/Z. Sure, it's nice as background noise, but it adds zip to a scene for me, no matter what it is, unless, as I said, it's the focus.

Plus, well, I like to be able to understand what I'm hearing. It was the main problem I had watching Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, and Castle in the Sky on TCM recently. JP language with subs, can't follow the dialoge so well and still do other things that way....

[Tanooki Kuribo]

This topic could go on forever.

[Super Sonic]

Do you mean that as in DBZ has done that, or you're just saying in general, you wouldn't like that?

I'm just saying in general, the reason I hate Shaman King's dub. I hate the fact of Bra's name becoming Bulla. I mean what the fuck is Bulla? A Bull or something like that?

1. Aside from GT her name is never mentioned in Z, dub or Japanese.

2. It was an approximation of the Japanese pronounciation they did in order to avoid dirty jokes.

[Tsukento]

One thing I don't accepts from people as a reason for liking the original over the dub is the original having better VAs (unless they know Japanese), cause unless you know the language you can't know the true quality of the voices, only get a feel of them, and that's not the same.

Not exactly. As I pointed out with Freeza, he has a certain tone in his voice that comes off as not only is being mockingly polite but is also frighteningly villainous. Where as the English voice didn't even have that kind of impact.

Though that's just my opinion.

1. Aside from GT her name is never mentioned in Z, dub or Japanese.

Actually, there was one page in the final volume of the manga which featured everyone's head and showed who they were and what they looked like 10 years later. Bra's name was in that page beside her.

[Super Sonic]

1. Aside from GT her name is never mentioned in Z, dub or Japanese.

Actually, there was one page in the final volume of the manga which featured everyone's head and showed who they were and what they looked like 10 years later. Bra's name was in that page beside her.

I know about that one title page, but I was referring more to the anime.

[Xyex]

Not exactly. As I pointed out with Freeza, he has a certain tone in his voice that comes off as not only is being mockingly polite but is also frighteningly villainous. Where as the English voice didn't even have that kind of impact.

Though that's just my opinion.

Which is an example of what I described. It's the feeling you get from the voice without acutally understanding the language. Yes, you can get that sort of thing, but it doesn't mean that the VA is good. I'm not saying it means they're bad, either. But such things are as much mental as anything, and are always opinions. Even when you know the language.

[Leotaku]

I hate the fact of Bra's name becoming Bulla. I mean what the fuck is Bulla? A Bull or something like that?

I don't know if that's how it's spelled, but actually, in the dub I watch, it's pronounced Buela. No bull.

Unlike most, I started off with the Dragon Ball dub back in 1995, rather than Dragon Ball Z in 1996. I recall waking up early one Saturday morning and seeing some crazy kid in a blue outfit with a red pole knocking out some wolves.

I saw DragonBall before Z too. But it was only the first 12 or 13 episodes. That's all they ever showed back then, as far as I know / got anyway.
I think my first episode was when Yamcha first attacks in the desert, but I only caught the ending. It was on really early.

Then when you look at both of his English voices, you notice he's been reduced down to sounding like an elderly woman who has nothing but really bad puns and homosexual undertones up his sleeve. Who can forget lines such as "Having these balls makes me want to caress them?" Or "Whatever turns you on, big boy?" That kind of attitude completely killed Freeza's character and ruined any kind of seriousness in him. Especially with the delivery of his voice actresses' lines.

Though to his credit, if any of the Z warriors happened to be homophobes, Freeza would put an EXTRA scare into them.

Plus, well, I like to be able to understand what I'm hearing. It was the main problem I had watching Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, and Castle in the Sky on TCM recently. JP language with subs, can't follow the dialoge so well and still do other things that way....

Same here. I do prefer being able to listen instead of read. If I'm busy reading, I can't watch what's going on.
I'm playing Castlevania: Lament of Innocence, and I have the English voices on instead of Japanese. I don't want to be busy reading during cutscenes, instead of watching the scene.

(Regarding Bulla/Bra)2. It was an approximation of the Japanese pronounciation they did in order to avoid dirty jokes.

I figured they changed it to avoid saying "bra", though I think it's ridiculous that they can show it (from Ran Fan) but not say it.
I even had the dub of DragonBall and GT from the same studio. It's not like I'm even comparing from different companies.

[Mattias]

Now with the technology of DVD's everyone can be happy so I don't see the point of fighting anymore.

If you *really* want to get into an interesting discussion, let's get into the whole fact that now-a-days it's the *dub fans* that are so bitchy and hostile towards fans of the original Japanese version, contrasted with seven/eight years ago and its vice-versa situation.

I've seen a lot of the reverse, actually, where purists tend to call dubbies (for lack of a better word) along the lines of "uncivilized" and "ignorant". A great example is the moderators at Sailor Moon Uncensored. I asked the exact same question to one of the workers at the site, and was basically out-bitched for the topic.

Personally, I get a little bit antsy when I see posts like, "The way it was meant to be seen" when regarding the original version. How do we know that for sure? Akira Toriyama had no control over the anime; what was meant to be seen is what is in the manga. At the same time, one needs to remember that this is a business; opportunities to see a product marketed and sold in other countries is only a bonus for TOEI and co.

I must also say that I disagree with the initial post regarding the music of the English version. If you give me a Yamaha synthesizer I could pull better melodies and basslines out of my ass. One thing that the Japanese score captures where the English score lacks is emotion. I could rant and rave about the music considering that I'm a composer, but that's for another topic.

[VegettoEX]

Akira Toriyama had no control over the anime

Not entirely true.

< conversation about understanding voices and getting impressions of performances >

Now, I have no idea how much of it is "me", but I don't buy the school of thought that you can't tell what's "good" if you don't know the language.

I don't know Japanese, and I *know* that the Japanese performances in the Hana Yori Dango anime are complete crap. Granted, the one guy's SUPPOSED to sound flat like that, but honestly. OK, and granted #2, Meri's more of the fan of that show, but still... we both came to the same conclusion separately.

For an analogy, I don't like rap music. I don't know much about rap music. I know when I hear a decent rap song, though. It's not "my language", but I can still get a very good impression.

And I really have to say how shocked I am at the amount of responses of "I don't want to read my anime" that I see on this board. We're definitely not a website that's dedicated to or shows a grand amount of love to the English dub in any way what-so-ever, so I'm kinda astounded that so many dub fans have been flocking here, lately. I'm scratching my head at a complete loss.

Not that I don't welcome you, because that's not the case at all, but I'm just confused .

[Tanooki Kuribo]

Does anyone know what time it is? Oh its CRAZY RANT TIME!

Ok...I think the reason for the large amount of dub fans is because now the whole series of Dragonball is over. Before while it was being dubbed, people could suggest changes or write e-mails to FUNimation telling them what to change (not that they would take the advice of fans or anything) but before there was hope if you didn't like where it was going. Now the whole series is done its take it or leave it.

Also somtimes people would buy the DVD's for the Japanese version only. If they speak English they probley are going to check it out in English anyways being its on the same disc. Maybe after sampling the English version so many times they find it easier to hear the story rather then read subtitles and so continue watching the series in English and thus becoming a dub fan.

I don't know, just saying.

I know Iam pretty much a dub fan but I dont hate the Japanese version at all. The Japanese IS the original version and basically that is "how it was ment to be seen". For me my little theory above was actually reversed (for me). After sampling the Japanese version so many times with the technology of DVD's I've grown to realize the difference in voices and can tell whos Japanese voice is who whereas before they all sounded the same, and thus knowing how to listen for emotions in there voices. I think it's not the voice actors (not that they don't help because the actual voice is important) but because the Japanese have a way of speaking that sounds very emotional to the ear. I know its hard to explain but if you listen to anyone in Anime get hurt (in Japanese) they usually have that throught sound followed by that keh keh keh sound. It didn't originate from Dragonball it just how the Japanese express being hurt, loved, happiness, whatever it may be. Another example of how they express themselfs differently from Americans is how in Power Rangers they are very dramatic compared to when they show the American cast. Ok I think that is it. *whew*

[Adnan]

I also don't buy the "reading the anime" bit either. But that's just me. I've already seen each episode several times, so it requires less looking down while watching as I probably know most of the dialogue already. And while I don't know much Japanese, I do know some individual words and basic sentences so I can understand some of the things they say without looking down.

However, even at the very beginning, when I was unfamiliar with JP DBZ and didn't know squat of japanese, looking down for an instant and reading a subtitle was not as big a deal as some people have described. I could always pause the scene if I don't want to miss out on what's happening, plus most of the time the sentences were very short and would not take more than an instant to read.

Anyway, I still disagree that people prefer the original simply because it's the original. If the japanese soundtrack for Dragonball Z was horrible or whether it was not as good as the dub's, I would have been objective enough to say so. But the reality is that this isn't the case. The japanese soundtrack is of better quality, has bigger production values, has *real* instruments (and while there are synthesizers that can produce instrument sounds that are almost like the real thing, Falconer's music certainly doesn't) and to me at least, they fit the scenes better.

Also, the argument that you must know a language to judge the quality of the VAs is false. Good acting is in the tone of voice which leads to the expression of emotion. The words themselves don't matter unless you're trying to judge the writing. Good acting is all about the delivery , something George Lucas will never comprehend .

For example: when someone is sad (or *any* emotion for that matter), generally people can hear it in their voice regardless of what language they're speaking. And what is good acting? It's the ability to accurately portray emotion to fit a particular scene. This can be judged no matter what language is being used. If someone's tone is flat and emotionless (George Lucas, can you hear me?) in any language, it will be noticed! So unless there's a culture out there (certainly not japanese though) that expresses emotions in a completely different or lopsided way, judging emotion and, consequently, judging the quality of acting is universal. People who regularly watch foreign films or shows will attest to that.