Theory of a Dragon

[The S]

Um... excuse me... but what do the strengths of Gohan, Vegeta, and Dabra have to do with all of this?

[the_abberration]

I'll take some of the heat for it getting off topic. For that I apoligize.

Anyway, the train of thought began thusly: where does Shenlong go when the Dragon Balls disappear? We know that Evil Shenlong (in GT) actually
comes OUT of the Dragon Balls, but it's seen that the Dragon Balls call forth Shenlong from somewhere, perhaps from outside of the DB Earth.
Now, given the following, I think that there is at least a bit of evidence that he resides in the Anoyo, or Afterlife.

.

I believe that Shenron comes from and returns to the dragonballs. The energy signature that is used for the dragon radar to track is coming from his energy IMO.

We know for a fact that Son Gokuu trained a lot during his tenure in the Afterlife. We don't know the extent of his training, as in who he trained
with the entire time, what kind of training he went through, et cetera. In the manga (as far as I can remember), we are only told that he learned
the Fusion Dance from the Metamoru-jin. In the anime, we are shown the entire thing with Dai Kaiou, Paikuhan, the Anoyoichi Budokai, et cetera. But there is nothing that accounts for the entire duration of his training. He was there a Hell of a long time (no pun intended).

Is it possible that he somehow met Shenlong there? After all, he had to have learned the Ryuken somewhere, right? Even though Gokuu is a
fighting genius, coming up with many attacks on the fly, the Ryuken seems to be a bit too elaborate for Gokuu to pull out of nowhere. Additionally, the large, golden long that is used in the attack looks exactly like Shenlong, but golden in color. He could have met Shenlong in the Afterlife somewhere, and trained with him. This would also account for the extreme training necessary to not only reach Super Saiyan 2, but 3 as well.

I would like to think Kami (or maybe Dende) might have told him about this move. They created the dragons and the move resembled Shenron. I just think it requires a lot of power to perfect it which is why it took Goku so long to master it.

Thinking back to Master Roshi's statement of how Goku wouldn't train unless he thought someone out there was stronger, Kami could have said to Goku as a child "There is technique to harness the power of the dragon. But it is very powerful and only someone who is very strong can do it" to motivate him during his training.

As Goku got stronger he could have kept trying this technique (off camera) until he could do it. As he got older he might have said "I wonder if I can do that move now."

Then again, given the point in which it is first done which was the last DBZ movie, it might have be AT's nod to Goku's origins as Dragon boy. (Read somewhere about the Dragon boy reference).

Another shred of evidence is the resurrection of Chibi Boo as Oob. Sure, it could have been the work of Dai Enma, but (and, as I relayed in a topic
around here about the villains and Hell), Shenlong could very well have been responsible for granting Son Gokuu this unofficial wish. This would
make much more sense if he had trained with Shenlong, or spent a significant amount of time with him.

After being thrashed on it before I concede to the "All the wishes were made beforehand and it was favor to Goku for saving the world so many times in the past" discussion.

The final piece of evidence I can think of, is Gokuu going off with Shenlong at the end of Dragon Ball GT. Although it could be a "reward" for Gokuu, having put the Xinlong to rest, and restoring Shenlong to be summoned from the Dragon Balls. But I prefer to think of it as a way for
Gokuu to continue his training for all of time, something that might be more feasable had he trained with him before.

How I would love for a movie to cover this.

Well, even though all of this came off the top of my head, I hope I at least made some sense. Any comments/complaints/corrections/rebuttals?
Feel free to do so.

Anything to keep DB alive in the heart of the fans

[Akira]

I think we are on the money dealing with Magic here, because the Dragonballs are indeed magical items. Kami Piccolo and Daimao Piccolo are both split halves of the single entity. Both are seen to use magic in the series. Kami Piccolo restores Son Goku's uniform at the end of the 23rd Budokai after it was torn in the battle with Daimao Piccolo Junior. we also see Kami Piccolo use it to restore life to Shenron after he was killed.

Piccolo used the same magic to form a uniform and sword for young Son Gohan. He uses the same magic often to restore his own cape and hat after losing them in a battle. He forms a sand timer to keep Super Buu occupied at the Temple so he can stall for Goten and Trunks.

Now how is it that Shenron was weak enough to be killed by Daimao Piccolo? How is it that Shenron is stronger when Dende reforms him? How about the Shadow Dragon's power, how do you explain that?

Well, I am glad those questions have been brought up. You see, although Piccolo, son of Kattat, was of the Dragon clan, and capable of Dragonball creation, he was a fighting type Namek.

Here is where my 2 cents and theory comes into play:

Fighting type Namekians do not have as much magical capability as Healing types do. In the same regard, Healing types (obviously) do not have as much ki as Fighting types.

The healing Dende does is more magic than ki related, wouldn't you say? The only other beings we ever see do that same trick are Majin Buu (Fat) and Kibito. Both beings with seemingly high magical power. Wouldn't you agree? (This could also factor in to the Kibito power section of this discussion. But I'll leave that up to you guys to decide.)

Look at it this way (GT info in parenthesis for those who wish to skip discussion of GT. That way I can continue this debate with GT AND Non GT info and please debaters of both persuasions):

Porunga was very powerful, because Guru had high magical capability. Guru could even raise Son Gohan and Krillin's battle powers with a magical technique. Porunga could grant 3 wishes.

(Piccolo (original) Made Super Shenron, a Red dragon capable of a single powerful wish, but the black star Dragonballs would spread accross the galaxy and eventually cause destruction because of the evil in Piccolo's heart. When he split in two, this dragon ceased to exist for a long time.)

Piccolo used deep meditation and the split form technique to seperate the evil from within his body. Both initially at half strength, Kami Piccolo and Daimao Piccolo were even less magically inclined fighting types as they had been as one.

Kami Piccolo creates the Red Star balls and Shenron. Capable of granting a single wish, and no wish could be granted more than once. This due in the fact of Kami's high magical ability by normal namekian standards for a fighting type, but low compared to a healing type.

Kami Piccolo remerges with Daimao Piccolo Junior. The red star balls turn to stone and shenron disapears. Dende comes and uses his magical ability to revive Shenron and the Red star balls. Due to his high magical power, even for a child, he is able to make Shenron stronger and capable of granting 2 wishes.

Shenron's wishes cannot exceed the power of the creator. The -Magical- power of the creator. Shenron can obviously do things magically that Kami cannot. It means Shenron has the same amount of magical power as the creator with which to do the things he is capable of doing. It may only take a small amount of magical power to revive a dead person or grant youth. When it taxes Shenron's capabilties and tests his limits is when he says stuff like, "What you ask is difficult, this will take time."

Think of it like Piccolo, when he was weaker in Ki power it took him awhile to power up to use the Makkosensappa against Raditz, but by the time he fought Cell he could use it almost instantly.

Shenron is no different, but in terms of magical power. The harder wishes take some time for him to "power up" magically and do, but later as the creator's magical power is greater, such wishes are like nothing for him to grant.

Back to some of the questions asked in this topic previously:

Kami's magical power was less than his fighting power, therefore, even though Daimao Piccolo had weaker fighting power than Kami Piccolo, it was still stronger than Kami's magical power. The ki blast was able to destroy Shenron as a result.

Dende was stronger magically, therefore Shenron was as well.

(We know from the anime that Rou Kaioshin said the dragonballs were only to be used once every hundred years. Goku and his friends used them multiple times in less than 30 years. As seen in GT, negative energy was stored in the place of positive energy.)

(Each of the shadow dragons was based off a specific wish in the past. Depending on how powerful that wish was (Based on Shenron's magical strength at that time.) detrmined the strength of the different shadow dragons. The reason Omega Shenron was so powerful was because he absorbed the negative energy input from the output of seven seperate wishes and dragons. )

Well, I gave it a lot of thought and that's the best way I can think to explain all that logically. [/i]

[Zackarotto]

Wow. This is a wordy topic. I couldn't read it all, but I skimmed through. This branched into a lot of subjects that barely relate, anymore. Maybe some spinoff topics should be created.

I think I know how to describe the Shenlong model in Kami's palace. I imagine his mind is in another plane of existence (a blissful world of eternal happiness, judging by impatient things Shenlong has said) while his soul is tied to that model. When the dragonballs are gathered, his soul gathers his mind into a body summoned in the image of that model. After that, I'd say it serves as a reverse voodoo doll of sorts-- if the summoned body is injured, it injures the Shenlong model, which his soul is tied to.

If you were to gather the dragonballs at that time, the soul couldn't create a fully developed body to direct the mind to... so it turns the balls into stone as a safeguard. Neato.

Piccolo didn't kill Shenlong. It was more of a temporary knockout. You'd have to get up to the palace and "detach the soul" if you wanted to rid Earth of Shenlong's presence, permanently. I assume that would be done by blasting the model into nothingness.

This leaves one question for me: If you were to paint googly-eyes on Shenlong or something, would he look like that when summoned? Or would it detect a deformity and turn the balls into stone the moment the brush touched the model's face? That I'd love to see.

The Z Sword is something of a holy weapon, is it not?

Uh, no not really (which is why it broke). The Z Sword was simply something that a villain imprisoned Rou Dai Kaioshin within.

Not sure how this got started (my laziness, sorry), but that sword was obviously based on the King Arthur / Excalibur tale. If strength had anything to do with that, it would have been a waste of time for the kid to get in line behind all those bulked up mercenaries and blacksmiths.

[Akira]

I read all the posts all the way through. If someone took the time to type it up and go into detail, then it might be something wothwhile. That way when you get ready to respond you know what's up so you don't ask a question that has already been covered.

You have some interesting ideas, stuff to be considered for sure.

[Zackarotto]

I completely agree with you. However, I am a doofus and I have work to do. If I have spent 15 minutes skimming through a topic, and have found something to comment on, it's impossible for me to read every last detail in a lengthy topic I haven't been reading from the start. So I just apologize in advance, and hope to god I didn't miss something big as I write my reply.

Uh, so... maybe on the weekend. It's a fun topic for me. If it wasn't being derailed like this, it would have been a breeze to read. The OP himself doesn't seem to know what's going on.

Then again, given the point in which it is first done which was the last DBZ movie, it might have be AT's nod to Goku's origins as Dragon boy. (Read somewhere about the Dragon boy reference).

Awesome. But I don't think Toriyama could have remembered that far back...