Daizenshuu 7 on Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku(Base): 30
Goku(SSJ3): 30*150(Assuming SSJ3 is a multiplier of 150)= 4,500
Goten(Base): 15
Trunks(Base): 15
Gotenks(Pre-ROSAT Base): (15+15)*3 = 90
Gotenks(Pre-ROSAT SSJ): 90*50 = 4,500

We already have SSJ3's multiplier. It's 4 times SSJ2/8 times SSJ/400 times base. Also, I doubt Goten & Trunks were half as strong as Goku.
Trunks was said to be a little stronger than Goten. Goten before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai was stated to be near Gohan's level, and Goku (and Vegeta) were stronger than Gohan, but not by much.

[Hitiro]

Goku(Base): 30
Goku(SSJ3): 30*150(Assuming SSJ3 is a multiplier of 150)= 4,500
Goten(Base): 15
Trunks(Base): 15
Gotenks(Pre-ROSAT Base): (15+15)*3 = 90
Gotenks(Pre-ROSAT SSJ): 90*50 = 4,500

We already have SSJ3's multiplier. It's 4 times SSJ2/8 times SSJ/400 times base. Also, I doubt Goten & Trunks were half as strong as Goku.
Trunks was said to be a little stronger than Goten. Goten before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai was stated to be near Gohan's level, and Goku (and Vegeta) were stronger than Gohan, but not by much.

I would say Gohan had lost quite a bit of strength from slacking. If you read the manga they make a lot of emphasis on how much weaker he's gotten. I would put Gohan at 20 making him a 2/3's of Goku's strength. And Vegeta I would put at 25 because although he trained very hard there was still a gap between him and Goku which is why he made up his mind to be controlled by Babidi and bridge the gap.

[hleV]

Trunks was said to be a little stronger than Goten. Goten before the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai was stated to be near Gohan's level, and Goku (and Vegeta) were stronger than Gohan, but not by much.

Goku and Vegeta were much stronger than Gohan.

• • Boo arc
  • Cell Games
  
  Gohan > Goku
  SSJ Gohan > SSJ Goku
  SSJ2 Gohan (theoretical) > 2x SSJ Goku
  SSJ2 Gohan (enraged) >> 2x SSJ Goku
  Gohan < Gohan
  Goku > SSJ2 Gohan (enraged)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Daizenshuu said that he didn't get any stronger/weaker in SSJ, just that he couldn't reach the strength he had against Cell in SSJ2 because he couldn't release his rage boost. But SSJ2 Gohan doesn't concern us right now, SSJ Gohan stayed the same, so that's what matters.

[hleV]

Even if you dismiss the idea that Gohan lost power, Goku and Vegeta are still much stronger.

[Hitiro]

The Daizenshuu said that he didn't get any stronger/weaker in SSJ, just that he couldn't reach the strength he had against Cell in SSJ2 because he couldn't release his rage boost. But SSJ2 Gohan doesn't concern us right now, SSJ Gohan stayed the same, so that's what matters.

Vegeta said he had gotten much weaker, even during the fight with Dabura, who was supposed to be around Cell's level of strength during the Cell games. I am assuming before he got his Zenkai because there would be no way SSJ Gohan could fight him otherwise, but SSJ Gohan was still struggling against Dubura even while trying, although we didn't see SSJ Kid Gohan attempt to fight in the Cell Games he would have done a much better job then the current SSJ Gohan. Probably even the match being a draw against Dabura, Vegeta is also confident he wouldn't of had any trouble as a child.

Edit: In fact, lets look at it this way, between the Cell Games and the next Tenkaichi Budokai we have 7 years unaccounted for. In those 7 years Gohan didn't train at all while Goku and Vegeta trained their asses off. Considering they surpassed SSJ2 Gohan's level of strength in those 7 years which as you said was down to his rage boost as well and considering Gohan was stronger than Goku in the Cell Games, even without the SSJ2+rage boost. Then it is natural to assume that Goku and Vegeta went way past Gohan's base level of strength to surpass both the SSJ2 and rage boost levels of strength as they don't even get that rage boost. 7 years is a long time and they have made leaps and strides in less time than that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Even if you dismiss the idea that Gohan lost power, Goku and Vegeta are still much stronger.

I know, I just don't believe that they are more than 2 times stronger than Gohan, unless something manages to change my mind.

Vegeta said he had gotten much weaker, even during the fight with Dabura, who was supposed to be around Cell's level of strength during the Cell games. I am assuming before he got his Zenkai because there would be no way SSJ Gohan could fight him otherwise, but SSJ Gohan was still struggling against Dubura even while trying, although we didn't see SSJ Kid Gohan attempt to fight in the Cell Games he would have done a much better job then the current SSJ Gohan. Probably even the match being a draw against Dabura, Vegeta is also confident he wouldn't of had any trouble as a child.

In the manga, we didn't see much about Gohan vs Dabra. Assuming that Goku compared Dabra to Super Perfect Cell (since this was the latest Cell we saw), and assuming that Gohan was SSJ (let's not even dare to question this here, for Kami's sake), we never saw SSJ Gohan fighting SP Cell. And even though it's been ages since I read the manga, and I don't have it available to check it or the anime currently, I don't remember Vegeta exactly saying that Gohan got weaker, but I think he was talking about his skills.

[Hitiro]

Vegeta said he had gotten much weaker, even during the fight with Dabura, who was supposed to be around Cell's level of strength during the Cell games. I am assuming before he got his Zenkai because there would be no way SSJ Gohan could fight him otherwise, but SSJ Gohan was still struggling against Dubura even while trying, although we didn't see SSJ Kid Gohan attempt to fight in the Cell Games he would have done a much better job then the current SSJ Gohan. Probably even the match being a draw against Dabura, Vegeta is also confident he wouldn't of had any trouble as a child.

In the manga, we didn't see much about Gohan vs Dabra. Assuming that Goku compared Dabra to Super Perfect Cell (since this was the latest Cell we saw), and assuming that Gohan was SSJ (let's not even dare to question this here, for Kami's sake), we never saw SSJ Gohan fighting SP Cell. And even though it's been ages since I read the manga, and I don't have it available to check it or the anime currently, I don't remember Vegeta exactly saying that Gohan got weaker, but I think he was talking about his skills.

No, he did say he got weaker..

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

[Hitiro]

Vegeta said he had gotten much weaker, even during the fight with Dabura, who was supposed to be around Cell's level of strength during the Cell games. I am assuming before he got his Zenkai because there would be no way SSJ Gohan could fight him otherwise, but SSJ Gohan was still struggling against Dubura even while trying, although we didn't see SSJ Kid Gohan attempt to fight in the Cell Games he would have done a much better job then the current SSJ Gohan. Probably even the match being a draw against Dabura, Vegeta is also confident he wouldn't of had any trouble as a child.

In the manga, we didn't see much about Gohan vs Dabra. Assuming that Goku compared Dabra to Super Perfect Cell (since this was the latest Cell we saw), and assuming that Gohan was SSJ (let's not even dare to question this here, for Kami's sake), we never saw SSJ Gohan fighting SP Cell. And even though it's been ages since I read the manga, and I don't have it available to check it or the anime currently, I don't remember Vegeta exactly saying that Gohan got weaker, but I think he was talking about his skills.

No, he did say he got weaker..

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4
Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?”
Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ”
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He only says that he got carried away in peace, he didn't do any significant training, and that he is pathetic. While he says that he was stronger as a brat, he doesn't necessarily talking about his power. It seems to me that he is talking about how he was fighting in general.

[Hitiro]

He only says that he got carried away in peace, he didn't do any significant training, and that he is pathetic. While he says that he was stronger as a brat, he doesn't necessarily talking about his power. It seems to me that he is talking about how he was fighting in general.

No, it is strength, Herms translated them all from Japanese, if it were in relation to his fighting technique in general then he would have picked it up and not included it in the Strength Checker section. I'm pretty sure fighting technique and strength have very different meanings in Japanese. If Toriyama was going to mention his technique in the fight then I'm sure he would have worded it different for the fans to understand. And even if it were about his fighting technique if he was as strong as his kid self that power would have easily made up for his form, characters like Frieza don't even use martial arts so the fact that he could fight well was down to nothing but his strength.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, I guess you are right... Either way, my point aboooove still stands.

[Bussani]

I'm still not convinced you're all not looking for correlations and contradictions where none are intended. All it says is that "Gotenks is strong!", only with slightly more words, because if it literally just said something stupid like "Gotenks is strong!", you'd be complaining for different reasons.

I think what they're saying is that, as it's worded, the quote says Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, which people apparently find difficult to believe. I say "people", but I guess I'm one of them, since the manga also gave me the impression that he was stronger than Vegeta before that. If not in his regular form, then certainly as a Super Saiyan. But hey, I could easily be wrong!

No, it is strength, Herms translated them all from Japanese, if it were in relation to his fighting technique in general then he would have picked it up and not included it in the Strength Checker section.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall opinion, but I don't think this is true. As someone who helped gather the information for the Strength Checker, I can tell you that we simply took any and every quote that could describe a character's strength/skill/ability and threw it in there. Selectively leaving things out would go against the point of having anything that might be considered relevant in one place, and there are several quotes in there that talk about skill specifically. But like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that Gohan was literally weaker.

[Fox666]

Vegeta said that in the Budokai based only on his Ki.

[Hitiro]

No, it is strength, Herms translated them all from Japanese, if it were in relation to his fighting technique in general then he would have picked it up and not included it in the Strength Checker section.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall opinion, but I don't think this is true. As someone who helped gather the information for the Strength Checker, I can tell you that we simply took any and every quote that could describe a character's strength/skill/ability and threw it in there. Selectively leaving things out would go against the point of having anything that might be considered relevant in one place, and there are several quotes in there that talk about skill specifically. But like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you on the idea that Gohan was literally weaker.

Did you make sure to define if it was relating to skill or ability when you translated the information? To be honest I find it a bit silly if you and the other guys who helped gather the information for the Strength Checker neglected to define what they were actually talking about. This thread is a perfect example of why it would be much better to clarify these points to prevent members such as myself and DBZGTKOSDH from having a disagreement on what was said. Sorry if this sounds a little disrespectful I just feel that it would be much better if things like this were clarified, if they are then that is fine.

[Bussani]

Did you make sure to define if it was relating to skill or ability when you translated the information?

Herms was the only one doing any translating, as far as I know. He translated the lines more literally than he normally would, so if they're specifically referring to skill or ability in Japanese, then the translation will reflect this. For instance:

Chapter: Chapter 89, P.4.4
Context: Master Karin is not fooled by Goku’s afterimage technique, but admits he’s surprised by the boy’s skills.
Karin: "This little guy is not bad at all...I've never seen so many afterimages at the same time... That’s a good sign...”

The above obviously isn't talking about physical strength.

To be honest I find it a bit silly if you and the other guys who helped gather the information for the Strength Checker neglected to define what they were actually talking about. This thread is a perfect example of why it would be much better to clarify these points to prevent members such as myself and DBZGTKOSDH from having a disagreement on what was said. Sorry if this sounds a little disrespectful I just feel that it would be much better if things like this were clarified, if they are then that is fine.

What I meant was that the Strength Checker isn't limited to talking about physical strength. Herms didn't pick out and exclude lines that were about skill from the guide altogether. However, like I said, Herms translated the lines extremely literally. If it sounds vague and open to interpretation in the Strength Checker, then there's a good chance it was vague and open to interpretation in Japanese. Many of the quotes also have notes to point out things that might not be obvious. But we're all only human, and there's no way we could have predicted every different interpretation of a line that people might come up with. Sometimes what sounds clear cut in English to most people can be taken in a most unexpected way by somebody else. If there's a disagreement on what a line actually means, you could always post it in the translation request thread and ask for further clarification.

[Mystic Gohan]

That quote makes no sense imo. SSJ Gotenks(pre) is definitely stronger than Vegeta already as he was suggested by Piccolo and Goku to be able to beat Fat Buu. SSJ Gotenks(pre) is also stated to be stronger than Goku and implied by Piccolo. The quote makes no real sense.

[Saiga]

I guess I fail to see how there's any concern whatsoever about that little paragraph. Gotenks trained really hard, and he's all strong and stuff. OK... and? Where's the issue that I'm clearly blind to? It's not stating anything outlandish at all. What is it that's difficult to reconcile about it?

I know that Gotenks is powerful and everything, that's not what I have a problem with. I'm confident that after his training he had surpassed all over the heroes at that point. I'm just wondering why such wording was chosen, and how it's meant to be interpreted.

What I mean is, why is it "Vegeta & others"? Vegeta is second fiddle to Goku, and if Goku is meant to be lumped in with the "others" wouldn't it instead make more sense to mention Goku in place of Vegeta? It would be much more clear to do so, as we know Goku is stronger than pretty much anyone else. I definitely believe Gotenks is stronger than Goku, so there shouldn't be much reason not to mention it unless they're talking about something else.

If the comparison is being made between the base forms of the characters, Gotenks should be much stronger than Vegeta before his training, or there wouldn't be much fuss over him in the first place. So I think we can safely say that's not what they meant.

Is it comparing them at their bests? Before the RoSaT training, Gotenks was his strongest as a Super Saiyan 1. It's possible that as a Super Saiyan 1 he was weaker than Vegeta, and that he only passed that mark through his training. This statement seems to make a lot more sense to me, however I would have thought that SS1 Gotenks was stronger than SS2 Vegeta prior to the training, unless Goku grossly overestimated the effects of fusion.

So, we could say that Gotenks in base surpassed SS2 Vegeta (but not SS3 Goku). In that case, it would certainly make sense for Goku to expect a Super Saiyan Gotenks to be able to beat Majin Boo, and it would make sense as to why Gotenks impresses people in his base form. Of course, with the Super Saiyan multiplier being x50 base that starts making Gotenks look extremely powerful, especially if he can make himself 400x stronger than his base form as a Super Saiyan 3. It's not impossible, but I think it's extremely unlikely for SS3 Gotenks to be 400x stronger than SS2 Vegeta. Not to mention that would mean his base is 100x stronger than Vegeta's base.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Why must we follow one fan interpretation so that it makes everyone else happy. Everyone is twisting it up. If Goku, the franchises main character were to truly be surpassed, then it would have been stated. Especially in the Daizenshuu's where things are verified and deliver the message the series implies. This quote speaks for itself and verifies to us that Gotenks is in fact weaker than Goku. It is referring to the highest power Gotenks has achieved after training in the Rosat. Especially when Gotenks mentions achieving Ssj3 right before Piccolo enters with Boo but in a very vague way. We must remember that Goku was taking Gotenks as a huge gamble. That resulted into chaos until Gotenks went ssj3. Piccolo even confesses such and says he didn't think he would be able to do so much as it was true. Goku told Piccolo his secret so the others wouldn't worry as much while he is away. Boo was toying with Gotenks just as Pure boo was toying with Goku. Piccolo never once said that Gotenks ssj could beat Fat boo. All he said was that he was stronger than everyone at the lookout, including himself.

This quote says "Vegeta and the others", not "Goku and the others". "Others" is just a word, nothing more. "Vegeta" is what we should mainly be paying attention at. "Others" refers to everyone weaker than Vegeta such as Kaioshin, Kibito, and ssj2 Gohan. The daizenshuu's then state that Gohan "has power surpassing Gotenks". (still no mention of Goku)? During the fight with Kid boo Vegeta blatantly admits that Goku is #1 and the only one capable of defeating Pure boo. We all know that obviously means the strongest Z fighter there is. Whereas in the Cell arc, the manga directly states that Gohan was #1 and everyone was counting on him whereas against Pure boo everyone was counting on Goku since his power was the best.

Don't use the "inside boo" excuse since Boo had already established Goku couldn't beat him when he was far far smaller than a flea.

[Saiga]

Oh god, not this again. The story makes it evident that SS3 Gotenks surpassed SS3 Goku, I don't see why you refuse to budge on this.