Daizenshuu 7 on Gotenks surpassing Vegeta and the others

[Fox666]

That's the point I'm trying to make, he lies initially. Then derps everyone by saying he could in actual fact do it. We see him lie throughout this arc on many occasions so I wouldn't be surprised if he did it inside Super Boo also.

But they are completely different situations. Goku was pratically running from Evil Boo, and even proposed to use the fusion with Vegeta to fight against Evil Boo.

Besides, for whatever reason Goku lied before, at this point Vegeta already told him he was watching from the afterlife. And Goku told Vegeta the truth before his fight with Pure Boo.

[hleV]

Goku wouldn't go through the trouble of trying to convince Vegeta to fuse with him again if he could take Evil Boo alone.

[012yArthur0]

Well, there proofs for Kid buu being the strongest, while there's proof for Super Buu being the strongest. But Super Buu proofs is way more plausible.

About Gotenks, I believe Gotenks SSJ was next to SSJ3 Goku.

[Mystic Gohan]

What is your proof for Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu?

The manga implies that SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ Gotenks>>>Base Gotenks(post)>>>SSJ Gotenks(pre)>SSJ3 goku.

[SaiyanZ]

What is your proof for Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu?

The manga implies that SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ Gotenks>>>Base Gotenks(post)>>>SSJ Gotenks(pre)>SSJ3 goku.

I can supply those. I am new here so forgive me if I use English/FUNi names over Japanese. But 3 things are shown to support Kid Buu > Super Buu. The first is Dabura saying that the ki of Kibito and Supreme Kai cannot be used to resurrect Fat Buu. The second is the defusion of Vegito inside Super Buu's body. The third is Kibito Kai saying that absorbing Grand Supreme Kai made Buu weaker. So the conclusion I draw from these 3 things is: Kai-affiliated things and Majins are not compatible. This means that when Kai material/ki comes into contact with Majins, the two almost cancel one another. So, South Supreme Kai made Buu weaker as opposed to strengthening him. And due to Goku's and Vegeta's comment that Super Buu grew in power when transforming into "Buff" Buu (the form he had when absorbing South Supreme Kai), and since Kai ki is not compatible with Majin (essentially making him weaker), Kid Buu is stronger than at least Super Buu in his base form. This does not account for his forms where he absorbs Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan

[Mystic Gohan]

Well heres the thing. That information is good and nice, but it comes from the anime. The manga states that only Grand Kai i guess in English made Buu weaker. So that really negates a bunch of the information from your post. Now there is a ton more info supporting Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu. The easiest is that Goku was scared to fight Super Buu without fusion, while he was confident his FP could beat Kid Buu.

[Darkprince410]

What is your proof for Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu?

The manga implies that SSJ3 Gotenks>>>SSJ Gotenks>>>Base Gotenks(post)>>>SSJ Gotenks(pre)>SSJ3 goku.

I can supply those. I am new here so forgive me if I use English/FUNi names over Japanese. But 3 things are shown to support Kid Buu > Super Buu. The first is Dabura saying that the ki of Kibito and Supreme Kai cannot be used to resurrect Fat Buu. The second is the defusion of Vegito inside Super Buu's body. The third is Kibito Kai saying that absorbing Grand Supreme Kai made Buu weaker. So the conclusion I draw from these 3 things is: Kai-affiliated things and Majins are not compatible. This means that when Kai material/ki comes into contact with Majins, the two almost cancel one another. So, South Supreme Kai made Buu weaker as opposed to strengthening him. And due to Goku's and Vegeta's comment that Super Buu grew in power when transforming into "Buff" Buu (the form he had when absorbing South Supreme Kai), and since Kai ki is not compatible with Majin (essentially making him weaker), Kid Buu is stronger than at least Super Buu in his base form. This does not account for his forms where he absorbs Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan

This can easily enough be contradicted though by the fact that Goku was vehemently opposed to trying to fight Evil Buu in his base form since they would lose, to the point that he tried convincing Vegeta to do the fusion dance with him. Secondly, we know that South Kaioushin Buu is even stronger than normal Evil Buu by the aforementioned comment that his strength increased as he regressed from Evil to South Kaioushin Buu. Lastly, after all is said and done, Goku even to the very last moment, still believes that he would be able to destroy True Buu while at full power.

In short, Buu's progression goes from someone Goku's too scared to even try and fight, to someone even stronger than that, to someone that Goku believes he'd be able to destroy on his own. That is enough in my opinion to pretty much solidify that Evil Buu is the stronger of the two.

[SaiyanZ]

Well heres the thing. That information is good and nice, but it comes from the anime. The manga states that only Grand Kai i guess in English made Buu weaker. So that really negates a bunch of the information from your post. Now there is a ton more info supporting Super Buu being stronger than Kid Buu.

Actually, according to Herms's translations on Chap. 508, Pg. 4, Kibito Kai said Buu was weakened through absorption.
Here is the link: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=15488
Ctrl+F for 508 and you should see it

Even if you disregard that, the fact that Kai and Majin are not compatible, given the 3 reasons I supplied, is more than enough to suggest South Supreme Kai weakened Buu instead of making him stronger. In fact, it is impossible given those reasons as they proved Kai ki cannot coexist with a Majin's.

The easiest is that Goku was scared to fight Super Buu without fusion, while he was confident his FP could beat Kid Buu.

This is the panel that is VERY overhyped. I'll show you how this is terrible to prove Super Buu as stronger than Kid Buu and Gohan as stronger than Goku. For one, if we go back to Chap. 477 on pg. 9, when Goku is talking to Piccolo at Kami's Lookout, Goku himself says that Super Saiyan 3 should not be used in the living world as it uses too much energy. This is why he did not want to fight Super Buu alone, with this situation occuring after Goku talks to Piccolo. As he is aware of the ki drain, his ki would disappear while fighting and he would lose. He'd lose ki from the get go, and steadily lose it until he reverts back to base form. Why fight someone when you have a handicap? This is why he suggests fusion with Vegeta

As for his confidence against Kid Buu, this was because he was in Other World. If we go back to Goku's and Piccolo's conversation, we now know Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in Other World. Hence, Goku's willingness to fight alone. If he fought Super Buu here, instead of on Earth, Goku would willingly take the fight and win seeing as his ki would not be drained as much/fast.

[Saiga]

As for his confidence against Kid Buu, this was because he was in Other World. If we go back to Goku's and Piccolo's conversation, we now know Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in Other World. Hence, Goku's willingness to fight alone. If he fought Super Buu here, instead of on Earth, Goku would willingly take the fight and win seeing as his ki would not be drained as much/fast.

No, he's in a living body. His ki was drained even faster than if he was in a dead body, so that's a bad argument.

If he could have won against Evil Boo he wouldn't have suggested Potara with Vegeta.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I just don't see how it could be suggested SK weakened Boo when his power was stated to be "rising" when he took the form of the absorbed SK.

[Bussani]

Actually, according to Herms's translations on Chap. 508, Pg. 4, Kibito Kai said Buu was weakened through absorption.
Here is the link: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=15488
Ctrl+F for 508 and you should see it

You mean this one?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Since Japanese doesn't use plurals a lot of the time, we don't know if he's saying absorption or absorptions here. It's possibly only talking about when he absorbed the fat and jolly Dai Kaioshin. I think that's more likely, actually, given that his ki became even stronger when he temporarily became the buff, South Kaioshin Buu.

This is the panel that is VERY overhyped. I'll show you how this is terrible to prove Super Buu as stronger than Kid Buu and Gohan as stronger than Goku. For one, if we go back to Chap. 477 on pg. 9, when Goku is talking to Piccolo at Kami's Lookout, Goku himself says that Super Saiyan 3 should not be used in the living world as it uses too much energy. This is why he did not want to fight Super Buu alone, with this situation occuring after Goku talks to Piccolo. As he is aware of the ki drain, his ki would disappear while fighting and he would lose. He'd lose ki from the get go, and steadily lose it until he reverts back to base form. Why fight someone when you have a handicap? This is why he suggests fusion with Vegeta

As for his confidence against Kid Buu, this was because he was in Other World. If we go back to Goku's and Piccolo's conversation, we now know Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in Other World. Hence, Goku's willingness to fight alone. If he fought Super Buu here, instead of on Earth, Goku would willingly take the fight and win seeing as his ki would not be drained as much/fast.

I think you're mixing up two different comments slightly. The whole "Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in the afterlife" thing was mostly about Goku being dead. He explains it to Piccolo after using it for the first time, saying something like, "It's so powerful that I have to borrow against the time I have left to visit Earth." It used up basically all the time he had left on Earth in only a short fight. When he faced Kid Buu, on the other hand, he was no longer dead; but that brought its own (probably related) problem to the table:

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

Basically, Super Saiyan 3 is always too powerful. It eats up your ki and will even reduce things like your special time on Earth or how long you can remain fused. The only time none of this is a problem is when you're both dead and in the afterlife, where time isn't a concern. Simply visiting the Kaioshin Realm (which technically isn't part of the afterlife, but it isn't part of the living universe either and dead people can go there, so I guess it counts) won't magically give you more stamina or anything.

[SaiyanZ]

As for his confidence against Kid Buu, this was because he was in Other World. If we go back to Goku's and Piccolo's conversation, we now know Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in Other World. Hence, Goku's willingness to fight alone. If he fought Super Buu here, instead of on Earth, Goku would willingly take the fight and win seeing as his ki would not be drained as much/fast.

No, he's in a living body. His ki was drained even faster than if he was in a dead body, so that's a bad argument.

But he was in OTHER WORLD, not Earth. He had no idea what the setbacks of using SSJ3 in a living body were until he fought Kid Buu. There is a difference between being in the living world and being alive. This goes the same for being dead and being in Other World. Just look at Goku coming back from the dead to fight in the World Tournament, Cell on King Kai's planet, Dende and Hercule on the Kai planet etc.

If he could have won against Evil Boo he wouldn't have suggested Potara with Vegeta.

That is exactly the point: Goku couldn't have won that fight. Take him to Other World and Goku wins quite handily. And they didn't have the Potara, Vegeta crushed it. I think you mean Metamorese Fusion

[SaiyanZ]

I just don't see how it could be suggested SK weakened Boo when his power was stated to be "rising" when he took the form of the absorbed SK.

No no no, Buff Boo > Super Boo. Kid Boo was the one who absorbed SK, not Super. It's different forms of Boo you're dealing with, those influenced by Kais and those that aren't.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Not really. Goku went from "OMG. His power is rising!" to laughing when he reverts to Kid Boo. They underestimated him but were still convinced he wasn't an opponent they (Goku) couldn't beat. That implies Super Boo is more powerful than Kid Boo, and since Mega Boo is more poweful than him, Kid Boo comes out weaker. The one that weakened him was Dai Kaioshin.

[Saiga]

That is exactly the point: Goku couldn't have won that fight. Take him to Other World and Goku wins quite handily. And they didn't have the Potara, Vegeta crushed it. I think you mean Metamorese Fusion

He didn't want Vegeta to crush the Potara, he still wanted to fuse with the Potara to beat Boo. If he could have beaten Boo in the Other World (which is based on nothing), he could have used Shunkan-Ido to take him and Boo there and won. But he would rather be permanently fused with Vegeta because other wise Evil Boo would annihilate him, in either world.

[Bussani]

Besides that, Goku's confidence about fighting Kid Buu came before the fighting moved to the Kaioshin Realm. If his plan was to take him there to beat him, then he could easily have done so with any other version of Buu, if it would have made a difference.

[SaiyanZ]

Actually, according to Herms's translations on Chap. 508, Pg. 4, Kibito Kai said Buu was weakened through absorption.
Here is the link: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=15488
Ctrl+F for 508 and you should see it

You mean this one?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

Since Japanese doesn't use plurals a lot of the time, we don't know if he's saying absorption or absorptions here. It's possibly only talking about when he absorbed the fat and jolly Dai Kaioshin. I think that's more likely, actually, given that his ki became even stronger when he temporarily became the buff, South Kaioshin Buu.

Given my 3 reasons before, its impossible for SK to strengthen Boo at all. From Super Buu to Buff Buu, this makes sense because Good/Mr. Buu was severed. Thus Boo lost one Kai influence first (why he became Buff Buu), then the 2nd right after (loses both Kais, became pure/Kid Buu).

This is the panel that is VERY overhyped. I'll show you how this is terrible to prove Super Buu as stronger than Kid Buu and Gohan as stronger than Goku. For one, if we go back to Chap. 477 on pg. 9, when Goku is talking to Piccolo at Kami's Lookout, Goku himself says that Super Saiyan 3 should not be used in the living world as it uses too much energy. This is why he did not want to fight Super Buu alone, with this situation occuring after Goku talks to Piccolo. As he is aware of the ki drain, his ki would disappear while fighting and he would lose. He'd lose ki from the get go, and steadily lose it until he reverts back to base form. Why fight someone when you have a handicap? This is why he suggests fusion with Vegeta

As for his confidence against Kid Buu, this was because he was in Other World. If we go back to Goku's and Piccolo's conversation, we now know Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in Other World. Hence, Goku's willingness to fight alone. If he fought Super Buu here, instead of on Earth, Goku would willingly take the fight and win seeing as his ki would not be drained as much/fast.

[/quote]
I think you're mixing up two different comments slightly. The whole "Super Saiyan 3 should only be used in the afterlife" thing was mostly about Goku being dead. He explains it to Piccolo after using it for the first time, saying something like, "It's so powerful that I have to borrow against the time I have left to visit Earth." It used up basically all the time he had left on Earth in only a short fight. When he faced Kid Buu, on the other hand, he was no longer dead; but that brought its own (probably related) problem to the table:

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”

Basically, Super Saiyan 3 is always too powerful. It eats up your ki and will even reduce things like your special time on Earth or how long you can remain fused. The only time none of this is a problem is when you're both dead and in the afterlife, where time isn't a concern. Simply visiting the Kaioshin Realm (which technically isn't part of the afterlife, but it isn't part of the living universe either and dead people can go there, so I guess it counts) won't magically give you more stamina or anything.[/quote]

If that were the case, he wouldn't have been so surprised when he said "What's going on?" when trying to muster up ki to finish Kid Buu. The fact that he said that, means that he didn't know what type of body he had had any effect on him sustaining a SSJ3. When talking with Piccolo, he clearly says "in this world where time exists". So right there, we know he's talking about location instead of alive/deceased status.

[SaiyanZ]

Not really. Goku went from "OMG. His power is rising!" to laughing when he reverts to Kid Boo. They underestimated him but were still convinced he wasn't an opponent they (Goku) couldn't beat. That implies Super Boo is more powerful than Kid Boo, and since Mega Boo is more poweful than him, Kid Boo comes out weaker. The one that weakened him was Dai Kaioshin.

With this laughing clearly being revoked on Chap. 510, Pgs. 12-13 where they admit they were wrong about underestimating him. Vegeta did the same thing against Cell after he absorbed Android 18

[SaiyanZ]

That is exactly the point: Goku couldn't have won that fight. Take him to Other World and Goku wins quite handily. And they didn't have the Potara, Vegeta crushed it. I think you mean Metamorese Fusion

He didn't want Vegeta to crush the Potara, he still wanted to fuse with the Potara to beat Boo. If he could have beaten Boo in the Other World (which is based on nothing), he could have used Shunkan-Ido to take him and Boo there and won. But he would rather be permanently fused with Vegeta because other wise Evil Boo would annihilate him, in either world.

Because of his weakness in using SSJ3 on Earth, nothing else. Why he didn't use it? Because Toriyama didn't write it that way.

[Saiga]

Because of his weakness in using SSJ3 on Earth, nothing else. Why he didn't use it? Because Toriyama didn't write it that way.

Again, the story makes it pretty clear that Evil Boo outstrips SS3 and it isn't because of some location orientated weakness of SS3. Don't use "Toriyama didn't write it that way" as an excuse because there is no in universe reason for Goku to want to be permanently merged with Vegeta if he can just IT Boo away and defeat him on his own.

Also, would it kill you to edit your posts rather than triple posting?