Do skill, instinct, mentality+ context matter in DB fights?

[Aoi]

"Power" to me always meant how strong one's defence and general physical/ki attacks are. That's it. You never really get the impression that Goku beats Frieza just because he has "more power". If anything, the SSJ transformation finally put them on equal footing, and I always saw that Goku beat him just because he was the more skillful fighter. The writing shows that he is really. He practically toys with Frieza at the end of the fight. Again, there are way too many examples to name.

The point is: unless the opponent is out of your realm of power (IE: Tenshinhan vs. 2nd Form Cell), then anyone can damage anyone, even if they are a less skilled or weaker fighter.

[goku the krump dancer]

The fight between Goku and Roshi was dead even, with Roshi being the victor simply because he was taller than Goku so his kick dealt greater damage (or hit first).

Would you put that as a result of skill or power?

[shonenhikada]

Didn't Piccolo comment on Vegeta getting mad against Perfect cell saying "that's no way to fight vegeta" ?

[Aoi]

One of the big mistakes I find some viewers make is assume that "strength" is the only reason someone is a good fighter. See Vegeta vs. Recoome. Yes, Recoome has the advantage of being a bigger hitter (and the ability to wistand Vegeta's attacks), but it doesn't mean that he's not a skilled fighter. Just because he's a very strong character, it doesn't mean they wi inevitably win in the dragon ball narrative. In fact, even if they are very powerful, some weakness is almost always reealed. This adds a extra dimension to the fights and make them very enjoyable to watch for me.

[Bussani]

"Power" to me always meant how strong one's defence and general physical/ki attacks are. That's it. You never really get the impression that Goku beats Freeza just because he has "more power".

You might not get that impression, but a large amount of people do. That's why I was saying I wish there was at least one very explicit example of a weaker guy winning due to some other factor--something that isn't open to interpretation in the slightest. Battle powers are perfect for that; they're a simple and clear way of telling the audience what's going on. It would be so simple to use them to show a weaker guy beating a stronger guy. But instead, every time a battle power is read out for the audience, it's to show that the guy who wins had a higher reading. Why, if they say again and again that power isn't everything, are battle powers used in a way that encourages the reader think that they are?

Before anyone tries to explain to me that there are plenty of cases where a weaker guy wins or could potential win, that's not the point. I'm just saying that from a storytelling point of view, battle powers, as a narrative tool, could have been used better to get this point across.

Just because he's a very strong character, it doesn't mean they wi inevitably win in the dragon ball narrative.

Could you list some examples where the stronger character doesn't win?

[Aoi]

"Power" to me always meant how strong one's defence and general physical/ki attacks are. That's it. You never really get the impression that Goku beats Freeza just because he has "more power".

You might not get that impression, but a large amount of people do. That's why I was saying I wish there was at least one very explicit example of a weaker guy winning due to some other factor--something that isn't open to interpretation in the slightest. Battle powers are perfect for that; they're a simple and clear way of telling the audience what's going on. It would be so simple to use them to show a weaker guy beating a stronger guy. But instead, every time a battle power is read out for the audience, it's to show that the guy who wins had a higher reading. Why, if they say again and again that power isn't everything, are battle powers used in a way that encourages the reader think that they are?

Before anyone tries to explain to me that there are plenty of cases where a weaker guy wins or could potential win, that's not the point. I'm just saying that from a storytelling point of view, battle powers, as a narrative tool, could have been used better to get this point across.

Just because he's a very strong character, it doesn't mean they wi inevitably win in the dragon ball narrative.

Could you list some examples where the stronger character doesn't win?

Battle powers are used briefly in the series in order to give the readers a point of reference. It's a quick way to direct expectation. Is this an underdog fight? Does the character need to come up with a strategy or unique solution to beat the stronger enemy? This simplifies things for us and adds tension by having the author direct our expectations like this.

IE: Goku (weaker character) vs. Piccolo Daimao (stronger character): What we know
- 1. Goku can't beat Piccolo in a straight fight.
- 2. Goku's legs, and one of his arms are useless.

We want Goku to win, but things are not looking good. At this point, every possible scenario is narrowed down to a few extremes; a do or die moment. Goku has to try one last ditch attack, which needs to connect and finish the job. Us not knowing whether he'll succeed or even what he'll do raises our curiosity and adds to the tension of the moment. In theory it's writing "101", but not a lot of writers can get us hooked like Toriyama does. He knows how to unexpectedly put our characters in the worst possible scenarios.

[Bussani]

Battle powers are used briefly in the series in order to give the readers a point of reference. It's a quick way to direct expectation. Is this an underdog fight? Does the character need to come up with a strategy or unique solution to beat the stronger enemy? This simplifies things for us and adds tension by having the author direct our expectations like this.

But I don't think there's ever, ever a case in the story where numbers are given and the person with the smaller number wins the fight--except for when the numbers read out turn out to be wrong. Like I said, this doesn't mean there aren't cases where someone wins because of strategy, but it doesn't help people see that power isn't everything, either. That's all I'm saying. Even as a kid I thought that if you're going to have Goku say, "Power isn't everything," then they should win the fight some way other than, "Makankosappo has a battle power of *@*#&$%?? Oh shiiiii--!" I remember expecting them to win by using their heads and their skills when I saw it for the first time, but it kept coming down to Raditz panicking over numbers increasing increasing instead.

Don't you think it would have been cool if the fight had ended with them winning without the numbers and with Raditz being like, "B-But my battle power was higher, how this can be?!", "It's because you thought that way. Numbers aren't everything"? If I'm honest, as a first time viewer, that was the sort of conclusion I was expecting after hearing Goku's comment. Instead, I'm sorry to say, I ended up thinking Goku had been wrong and that making your numbers shoot up was what really mattered.

IE: Goku (weaker character) vs. Piccolo Daimao (stronger character): What we know
- 1. Goku can't beat Piccolo in a straight fight.
- 2. Goku's legs, and one of his arms are useless.

We want Goku to win, but things are not looking good. At this point, every possible scenario is narrowed down to a few extremes; a do or die moment. Goku has to try one last ditch attack, which needs to connect and finish the job. Us not knowing whether he'll succeed or even what he'll do raises our curiosity and adds to the tension of the moment. In theory it's writing "101", but not a lot of writers can get us hooked like Toriyama does. He knows how to unexpectedly put our characters in the worst possible scenarios.

Mmm...I guess. I thought they were pretty even, personally, and that it was some lucky and cheap shots from Daimao that put Goku at a disadvantage. Tenshinhan helped a bit by saving him from a big attack, which apparently left Daimao weakened and gave Goku back a chance to win by betting all his remaining strength on a single attack. But I'm not sure I'd say Goku was the fundamentally weaker of the two in that match, since they started off around the same and both gain handicaps as they went

I wonder if we're thinking different things when we hear "power isn't everything". Take the Final Flash example in your opening post, for instance: the first thing I thought when I read that was: "Really? But didn't the Final Flash only hurt Cell because it's really strong? Vegeta goaded him into taking the hit, which is fine 'n' all, but wasn't it still brute force in the end?" It feels like there's some sort of disconnect between how the two of us are looking at it.

[Saiga]

Well hey, nobody had a greater power than Oozaru Vegeta.

[Bussani]

Well hey, nobody had a greater power than Oozaru Vegeta.

Yeah, that fight is the one example I can think of (from the time where battle powers exist, at least) that comes close to what this thread is talking about (which I went over in my first post, if I remember right). Goku shoots him in the eye; Yajirobe cuts off his tail; Yajirobe slices his back right through his armor; and he's finished off by an Oozaru falling on him. Cool stuff.

Of course, Goku softened him up by out powering him first, and then by having Kuririn hit him with a big ol' ball of power. But like someone else said, strategy and power can co-exist.

[DBZAOTA482]

Well hey, nobody had a greater power than Oozaru Vegeta.

*cough*Mr. Popo*cough*

[dbgtFO]

The size of one's ki is indeed one of the most important factors in a battle. See what Toriyama said in his first SEG interview:

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
AT: When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control.

So if your power surpasses everything and you can control it properly(unlike Ginyu in Goku's body), you should be able to win most battles that are fought "the normal way" ie. punching, kicking and firing ki blasts until a victor has been decided.

I feel that the idea that powers matter the most has always been present, going as far back as the 21st Strongest under the Heavens tournament, where Kame-sennin tells us this:

Kame-sennin: “Ultimately the martial arts come down to two bodies colliding together…In the end, the stronger person wins…It’s simple…

This holds true in most cases, though as Kame-sennin says right after, there are cases where it isn't everything:

Though having said that, I’m a little outclassed by Goku’s nimbleness…And with his small body and short legs, I can’t do a cobra suplex or square hold…!!”

Obviously there are examples that show the characters winning not only because of their strength, but because of their well thought out strategies eg.

• Goku vs. Buyon. Goku's power wasn't enough to tear through Buyon's rubbery body, so he broke the wall, making Buyon ice cold, hard and easy to defeat.
• Puar and Upa vs. Dracula Man. Defeated the vampire by exploiting his weakpoints.

But the general idea we have been presented with from the start is that power matters the most in a battle making a scenario, where it isn't mostly about power, a rare occurence.

[Aoi]

dbgtFO, great post man.

Just like in real life, power will many times be the difference once skills are matched. I remember a few weeks ago watching Olympic Basketball, and you would literally have Lebron James out muscle 3-4 guys at the same time for a rebound or during a dunk . I remember thinking: "No amount of strategy would be enough to stop this monster".

What I appreciate about Dragon Ball is that every single "weaker" character is given a fighting chance if they are up against an extremely strong and skilled character because they are actually using their brains. I've stated this before, but this is one of the things that Mr. Toriyama did best; he respected his characters. You almost never feel like the characters are missing something obvious and many times they actually impress you with their ingenuity.

One of my favourite moments (out of almost an infinite amount)= when Krillin and Gohan wait for the perfect moment to attack Recoome. He's vulnerable when he launches his Eraser Gun and they actually do way more damage in that one second than Vegeta did during the entire fight.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Don't you think it would have been cool if the fight had ended with them winning without the numbers and with Raditz being like, "B-But my battle power was higher, how this can be?!", "It's because you thought that way. Numbers aren't everything"? If I'm honest, as a first time viewer, that was the sort of conclusion I was expecting after hearing Goku's comment. Instead, I'm sorry to say, I ended up thinking Goku had been wrong and that making your numbers shoot up was what really mattered.

But Raditz's power was higher than both of them, and even Piccolo's Makankousappou (at first, I guess, but we'll get to that). It was 1,500 vs 1,330, but it didn't work because Raditz dodged it, while saying that it probably would've killed him (the theory is that the drilling capabilities of Piccolo's attack is what could've killed Raditz, even if it was weaker). And then you have Gohan's 1,307 vs 1,500, which is still weaker than Raditz, but packed enough of a punch to wind him enough for Gokuu, who had broken ribs by this point, to put him in a full-nelson and hold him long enough for Piccolo to impale both of them with another Makankousappou.

I think you're asking too much for it to be spelled out so explicitly like that. Again, this is Toriyama we're talking about here, and while his writing isn't the best, take him away and Dragon Ball isn't Dragon Ball anymore.

IE: Goku (weaker character) vs. Piccolo Daimao (stronger character): What we know
- 1. Goku can't beat Piccolo in a straight fight.
- 2. Goku's legs, and one of his arms are useless.

We want Goku to win, but things are not looking good. At this point, every possible scenario is narrowed down to a few extremes; a do or die moment. Goku has to try one last ditch attack, which needs to connect and finish the job. Us not knowing whether he'll succeed or even what he'll do raises our curiosity and adds to the tension of the moment. In theory it's writing "101", but not a lot of writers can get us hooked like Toriyama does. He knows how to unexpectedly put our characters in the worst possible scenarios.

Mmm...I guess. I thought they were pretty even, personally, and that it was some lucky and cheap shots from Daimao that put Goku at a disadvantage. Tenshinhan helped a bit by saving him from a big attack, which apparently left Daimao weakened and gave Goku back a chance to win by betting all his remaining strength on a single attack. But I'm not sure I'd say Goku was the fundamentally weaker of the two in that match, since they started off around the same and both gain handicaps as they went

I wonder if we're thinking different things when we hear "power isn't everything". Take the Final Flash example in your opening post, for instance: the first thing I thought when I read that was: "Really? But didn't the Final Flash only hurt Cell because it's really strong? Vegeta goaded him into taking the hit, which is fine 'n' all, but wasn't it still brute force in the end?" It feels like there's some sort of disconnect between how the two of us are looking at it.

Even when Piccolo shot at one of Gokuu's legs and put it out of action, he was still able to push him back with the help of his Nyoibou. That's got nothing to do with power; that's skill. That's tenacity. And no matter how strong both of them were at the beginning, Gokuu was weaker by the end and could only use one arm. The fact that he managed to muster up enough energy to propel himself into the air and blast a massive hole through Daimaou, who didn't dodge, either because he didn't have time because he was stunned and/or he didn't bother to because he was arrogant enough to think he could block it.

As for the Final Flash...it hurt Cell, but he just regenerated it. Regeneration doesn't have that much to do with power, so the Final Flash example can still count, even if that's not necessarily to do with Vegeta goading Cell to take the hit.

Oh, and another example is Kuririn losing against Dracula Man because he was surprised by his speed and bat transformation, had his blood drained, and then was unable to keep his calm and stop the blood from putting off his balance.

[Bussani]

But Raditz's power was higher than both of them, and even Piccolo's Makankousappou (at first, I guess, but we'll get to that). It was 1,500 vs 1,330, but it didn't work because Raditz dodged it, while saying that it probably would've killed him (the theory is that the drilling capabilities of Piccolo's attack is what could've killed Raditz, even if it was weaker). And then you have Gohan's 1,307 vs 1,500, which is still weaker than Raditz, but packed enough of a punch to wind him enough for Gokuu, who had broken ribs by this point, to put him in a full-nelson and hold him long enough for Piccolo to impale both of them with another Makankousappou.

Yes, but that's all based on a number that isn't actually in the manga. I'm talking about impressions from the story alone--the kind of thing I felt when I first saw it as a kid. It doesn't help that Nappa says the Saibaimen have a battle power of 1200 and that "in power alone, they rival Raditz," which would make just about anyone think that both Gohan and the Makankosappo out-powered Raditz.

I think you're asking too much for it to be spelled out so explicitly like that.

I don't think I'm asking for much at all. If it can be explicit and in your face about one guy having a bigger number than another guy and winning because of that, why is it asking to much to say, "Why didn't it do the opposite at least once?"

But I'm not really asking for anything, anyway. I like Dragon Ball as it is. I'm just saying that I think it would have been neat.

And no matter how strong both of them were at the beginning, Gokuu was weaker by the end and could only use one arm.

He was at a disadvantage because of his broken limbs, but I'm not sure that made him literally the weaker of the two. He flat out said that Daimao had used up a lot of his strength, and I'm sure that had something to do with him not being able to block/dodge Goku's final gamble. I'll admit that Goku used his head by propelling himself the way he did, but I suppose my point was that I always saw it as a fairly even fight, and those are the ones where things like skill and brains definitely do matter.

As for the Final Flash...it hurt Cell, but he just regenerated it. Regeneration doesn't have that much to do with power, so the Final Flash example can still count, even if that's not necessarily to do with Vegeta goading Cell to take the hit.

Okay. But like I said before, I was only thinking about skill, instinct, mentality, etc, rather than special powers like stopping time or regeneration. I'm not about to argue that special powers aren't a huge variable in how a fight goes down.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But Raditz's power was higher than both of them, and even Piccolo's Makankousappou (at first, I guess, but we'll get to that). It was 1,500 vs 1,330, but it didn't work because Raditz dodged it, while saying that it probably would've killed him (the theory is that the drilling capabilities of Piccolo's attack is what could've killed Raditz, even if it was weaker). And then you have Gohan's 1,307 vs 1,500, which is still weaker than Raditz, but packed enough of a punch to wind him enough for Gokuu, who had broken ribs by this point, to put him in a full-nelson and hold him long enough for Piccolo to impale both of them with another Makankousappou.

Yes, but that's all based on a number that isn't actually in the manga. I'm talking about impressions from the story alone--the kind of thing I felt when I first saw it as a kid. It doesn't help that Nappa says the Saibaimen have a battle power of 1200 and that "in power alone, they rival Raditz," which would make just about anyone think that both Gohan and the Makankosappo out-powered Raditz.

But the 1,500 number in the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks is based on the manga, so it should count. And Vegeta berates Raditz for being killed by numbers "barely over 1,000", implying that he thinks Raditz was stronger than Gokuu/Gohan/Piccolo's attacks and he was an idiot for being killed. And he was. He dropped his guard against Gokuu, which enabled the latter to grab the former in a full-nelson, which he couldn't escape from, due to being winded by Gohan.

I think you're asking too much for it to be spelled out so explicitly like that.

I don't think I'm asking for much at all. If it can be explicit and in your face about one guy having a bigger number than another guy and winning because of that, why is it asking to much to say, "Why didn't it do the opposite at least once?"

But I'm not really asking for anything, anyway. I like Dragon Ball as it is. I'm just saying that I think it would have been neat.

All right, well...fair enough.

And no matter how strong both of them were at the beginning, Gokuu was weaker by the end and could only use one arm.

He was at a disadvantage because of his broken limbs, but I'm not sure that made him literally the weaker of the two. He flat out said that Daimao had used up a lot of his strength, and I'm sure that had something to do with him not being able to block/dodge Goku's final gamble. I'll admit that Goku used his head by propelling himself the way he did, but I suppose my point was that I always saw it as a fairly even fight, and those are the ones where things like skill and brains definitely do matter.

I think it did make him literally weaker, and he only won due to strategy (using the Nyoibou to compensate for his broken leg), the luck of surviving Piccolo's blasts and Tenshinhan helping him with Bukuujutsu, and his courage that he couldn't give up and he had to win for his defeated friends. I mean, you're right, it was even, but only up until Piccolo blasted him in the leg. And it's not as if Gokuu was necessarily stronger than Piccolo, before or after.

As for the Final Flash...it hurt Cell, but he just regenerated it. Regeneration doesn't have that much to do with power, so the Final Flash example can still count, even if that's not necessarily to do with Vegeta goading Cell to take the hit.

Okay. But like I said before, I was only thinking about skill, instinct, mentality, etc, rather than special powers like stopping time or regeneration. I'm not about to argue that special powers aren't a huge variable in how a fight goes down.

Right, yep. I just thought it might've been worth mentioning.

[Cipher]

Could you list some examples where the stronger character doesn't win?

In the manga? Not many.

But you know who's actually pretty good with this? Toei.

The movies use some very cop-out endings to get around power differences, but the last two main villains of GT are way out of any character's league and remain so until they're beaten. You want to watch two fights where power is incredibly secondary to finding a unique way to win? Watch the fights with Super 17 and Yi Xing-Long.

(Granted, there's still the old Dragon Ball philosophy that characters who aren't strong enough don't have a chance in hell, and I largely agree that the series isn't very good at promoting any opposing ideas. But I thought I'd point those out.)

[Bussani]

But the 1,500 number in the Daizenshuu and other guidebooks is based on the manga, so it should count.

Oh, I'm not saying they don't "count". I'm just saying that a casual reader wouldn't even know they exist. I don't think I'd have assumed Raditz's power was anything but 1,200 unless the guides and a quote from Toriyama had said otherwise, and that's exactly why I got the impression that they out-powered Raditz when I first saw it as a kid.

And Vegeta berates Raditz for being killed by numbers "barely over 1,000", implying that he thinks Raditz was stronger than Gokuu/Gohan/Piccolo's attacks and he was an idiot for being killed. And he was. He dropped his guard against Gokuu, which enabled the latter to grab the former in a full-nelson, which he couldn't escape from, due to being winded by Gohan.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I actually completely agree with you. I'm just saying it would be nice if this was made more obvious to the reader, because it's pretty easy to overlook as it is.

I think it did make him literally weaker, and he only won due to strategy (using the Nyoibou to compensate for his broken leg), the luck of surviving Piccolo's blasts and Tenshinhan helping him with Bukuujutsu, and his courage that he couldn't give up and he had to win for his defeated friends. I mean, you're right, it was even, but only up until Piccolo blasted him in the leg. And it's not as if Gokuu was necessarily stronger than Piccolo, before or after.

Fair enough. I don't think Goku won that fight because he was stronger, either. I see it more like a roughly even fight that could have gone either way. Daimao got in a good hit to Goku's leg, putting him at a disadvantage, but then Tenshinhan's intervention makes him waste a bunch of his power, so it becomes hard to say who was stronger than whom after that. I will at least admit that Goku used his head and his tenacity to overcome his disadvantages and win, but like I said, those things come into play much more when raw power is more or less even.

I suppose I should mention that every time I say "power" or "strength", I'm thinking of ki power rather than punching strength or agility or whatever. Goku obviously had none of that by the end of the fight.

You want to watch two fights where power is incredibly secondary to finding a unique way to win? Watch the fights with Super 17 and Yi Xing-Long.

I'll have to re-watch GT again at some point. I've seen it far more times than any other part of the anime, but I still forget it so easily.

[Saiga]

Could you list some examples where the stronger character doesn't win?

In the manga? Not many.

But you know who's actually pretty good with this? Toei.

The movies use some very cop-out endings to get around power differences, but the last two main villains of GT are way out of any character's league and remain so until they're beaten. You want to watch two fights where power is incredibly secondary to finding a unique way to win? Watch the fights with Super 17 and Yi Xing-Long.

(Granted, there's still the old Dragon Ball philosophy that characters who aren't strong enough don't have a chance in hell, and I largely agree that the series isn't very good at promoting anything opposing ideas. But I thought I'd point those out.)

What are you talking about? Base Goku is his strongest form, faaaa~aar stronger than Super 17 and that other guy you mentioned.

[Cipher]

What are you talking about? Base Goku is his strongest form, faaaa~aar stronger than Super 17 and that other guy you mentioned.

Ug, really?

I don't even want to get into this here, but isn't the criticism that base Goku's power is out of whack almost entirely based on the Super 17 arc (in which case a full half of it is based on the fight I just mentioned)? It isn't a big deal at all. Goku wins the fight with Super 17 because, base form or not, he teams up with #18 to force an opening for Dragon Fist, which ... does what Dragon Fist does.

And the fight against Yi Xing-Long, with the single exception of Goku using his family and friends to gain power at one point (which is immediately one-upped), is all about him taking pot shots while blinded, then desperately trying to use distraction and fusion with Vegeta. There are all of two moments before the final blow when he has the upper hand.

[Saiga]

Ug, really?

I don't even want to get into this here, but isn't the criticism that base Goku's power is out of whack almost entirely based on the Super 17 arc (in which case a full half of it is based on the fight I just mentioned)? It isn't a big deal at all. Goku wins the fight with Super 17 because, base form or not, he teams up with #18 to force an opening for Dragon Fist, which ... does what Dragon Fist does.

And the fight against Yi Xing-Long, with the single exception of Goku using his family and friends to gain power at one point (which is immediately one-upped), is all about him taking pot shots while blinded, then desperately trying to use distraction and fusion with Vegeta. There are all of two moments before the final blow when he has the upper hand.

I dunno, Super 17 can overpowered Super Saiyan 4 Goku and yet has a hole punched through him by base Goku, that's definitely fucked even if he's off guard. It wasn't much of a Dragon Fist and more Goku just punching a goddamn hole through 17 with the silhouette of Shenlong overlapping. And then he's destroyed by a Kamehameha, from base form Goku. Yeah, that doesn't work.

Then when Goku is prepping the Spirit Bomb, Shenlong freaks out and attempts to kill him with a barrage of energy blasts... that do zero damage. Base Goku is simply a god.