If Saiyans > Kaioshin why was Piccolo afraid to fight?

[Saiga]

Cell's line means that others could be included in his statement, not it doesn't mean there has to be. He could be talking about Vegeta, Trunks and others, or he could only be talking about Vegeta and Trunks.

In other words it's pretty much meaningless.

Since nothing was said about Piccolo going in a second time, I'm assuming he didn't. And I don't think he'd think he wouldn't be of any help if he had surpassed Goku's display of power by a significant amount.

There's absolutely nothing in the manga that supports Piccolo being on par with the Super Saiyans, and so I don't believe it.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

If Toriyama didn't intend to include other characters in the statement, then why bother using that specific phrasing? Seems pointless to have an open statement for no reason. Anyway, it holds more meaning than half the actions and statements that occur before Babidi's ship is destroyed IMO; that portion of the Buu Arc is a clusterfuck of contradictions, like Toriyama wasn't sure what the hell he was doing with Kaioshin and the grunts.

Nothing contradicts it, and being the warrior he is, I doubt he'd just say "fuck it, why bother trying to improve myself" in a time of crisis. He's not like the humans, because up until just a couple days before that scene, he'd always been able to keep up with the power houses in one manner or another; whether it be a fusion boost or training from base Saiyan to Super Saiyan levels in just 3 years. I also never said he surpassed Goku's display of power on his first trip into the RoSaT and when he made that statement, I said he's been on par with Vegeta and Trunks:

Vegeta: Starts out weaker than 18. Goes into RoSaT and trains to Semiperfect Cell's level. Goes in a second time and trains to the lower end of Perfect Cell's level.
Piccolo: Starts out equal to 17. Goes into RoSaT and trains to Semiperfect Cell's level after Vegeta and Goku. Goes in a second time and trains to the lower end of Perfect Cell's level.

Except, you know, the whole Piccolo staying on his feet against the Cell Juniors thing; when only Trunks and Vegeta were able to fight back... really, anything less than Super Saiyan tier there, and you really wouldn't even be able to hold off the little demons. If Piccolo was really at the Saiyan's base level, he would have been on the ground with the Earthlings, just like base Trunks or Vegeta would have been.

[Saiga]

If Toriyama didn't intend to include other characters in the statement, then why bother using that specific phrasing? Seems pointless to have an open statement for no reason. Anyway, it holds more meaning than half the actions and statements that occur before Babidi's ship is destroyed IMO; that portion of the Buu Arc is a clusterfuck of contradictions, like Toriyama wasn't sure what the hell he was doing with Kaioshin and the grunts.

Nothing contradicts it, and being the warrior he is, I doubt he'd just say "fuck it, why bother trying to improve myself" in a time of crisis. He's not like the humans, because up until just a couple days before that scene, he'd always been able to keep up with the power houses in one manner or another; whether it be a fusion boost or training from base Saiyan to Super Saiyan levels in just 3 years. I also never said he surpassed Goku's display of power on his first trip into the RoSaT and when he made that statement, I said he's been on par with Vegeta and Trunks:

Vegeta: Starts out weaker than 18. Goes into RoSaT and trains to Semiperfect Cell's level. Goes in a second time and trains to the lower end of Perfect Cell's level.
Piccolo: Starts out equal to 17. Goes into RoSaT and trains to Semiperfect Cell's level after Vegeta and Goku. Goes in a second time and trains to the lower end of Perfect Cell's level.

Except, you know, the whole Piccolo staying on his feet against the Cell Juniors thing; when only Trunks and Vegeta were able to fight back... really, anything less than Super Saiyan tier there, and you really wouldn't even be able to hold off the little demons. Piccolo would have been on the ground with the Earthlings, just like base Trunks or Vegeta would have been.

If Toriyama did intend to include Piccolo in that statement, why would he exclude the one extra name instead of just being clear? Obviously Piccolo is the only one who could be fighting evenly, so why go with a statement that excludes it instead of just chucking the name in? To me, it seems a lot more logical to think that Toriyama just didn't put a whole lot of thought into his phrasing then intentionally using an open statement as a way to include Piccolo over actually including Piccolo.

As for the whole "fuck it, why bother trying to improve myself" seeming out of character for him... it doesn't sound too far off from him saying "admit it, I'm useless".

Anyway, yeah, I misunderstood. I can see it happening that way, but I don't see him making a second trip since it was never even mentioned in passing.

Piccolo staying on his feet doesn't mean anything because the Cell Jrs were fucking around. After all, the humans survived. So him standing on his feet doesn't mean anything when we know the Cell Jrs weren't all going all out. And even if they were, it wouldn't mean anything - Goku stayed on his feet when he was using the KK10 against Freeza's 50% power for a while. The battle doesn't seem particularly long so he could have stayed on his feet even if he was getting the shit kicked out of him.

[Bussani]

If Toriyama did intend to include Piccolo in that statement, why would he exclude the one extra name instead of just being clear?

Japanese is pretty big on leaving out words to make the sentences shorter, even when doing so can sometimes leave things less clear. It could just be that it flowed better and was easier to fit into a panel that way.

Cell's line means that others could be included in his statement, not it doesn't mean there has to be.

Are you sure about that? I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that "ya" would only be used if there was at least one extra thing, otherwise you'd just use "to". But maybe someone with more experience with Japanese can correct me.

[Saiga]

Are you sure about that? I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that "ya" would only be used if there was at least one extra thing, otherwise you'd just use "to". But maybe someone with more experience with Japanese can correct me.

I'm only trusting what I was told by someone who does know Japanese well.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Piccolo staying on his feet doesn't mean anything because the Cell Jrs were fucking around. After all, the humans survived. So him standing on his feet doesn't mean anything when we know the Cell Jrs weren't all going all out. And even if they were, it wouldn't mean anything - Goku stayed on his feet when he was using the KK10 against Freeza's 50% power for a while. The battle doesn't seem particularly long so he could have stayed on his feet even if he was getting the shit kicked out of him.

Just gonna poke my nose in for a second...

If the Cell Juniors were just "fucking around", why did only a weakened Gokuu and the Earthlings get beaten to the point of unconsciousness or, in the case of Gokuu, unable to even stand up? Whereas Piccolo, Vegeta, and Trunks could all hold their own, and Vegeta even landed a punch on the Cell Junior he was fighting? What would make the Cell Juniors somehow hold back less on Gokuu and the Earthlings, but more on the other Super Saiyans and Piccolo?

Also, does anything actually suggest that the Cell Juniors were "fucking around", other than fan conjecture? If you're talking about perfect Cell's statement - how does he know? Yeah, he birthed them and presumably made him as strong as he believed they should be, but since he may've seemed relatively surprised at how well Vegeta, Trunks and maybe Piccolo were holding up against his children, perhaps they were giving it their all against them, while holding back on Gokuu and the Earthlings, because they couldn't fight back in the first place, being so weak.

Anyway, to me, it seems pretty obvious that Piccolo was in Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks' league (there's even a chapter page quite clearly showing Kuririn, Yamcha and Tenshinhan lying on the ground unconscious, Gokuu on the ground conscious but weakened, and Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks standing up looking somewhat dishevelled but still in "battle mode"). Weaker than them, yes, but not by that much, and definitely not somehow below their base forms. That's just a ridiculous way of trying to make the clusterfuck that is the inconsistent Boo arc make sense. It doesn't: deal with it.

[Fox666]

But the Cell Junior were fucking around. Even Cell said Vegeta and Trunks are "barely" fighting evenly. And even if they happened to be equal to the Cell Junor, the seven could just gang up and easily defeat Vegeta or Trunks.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Bussani already covered a chunk of this, but I'll just thrown Herms' notes into the mix as well:

• "Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind"

So, does there have to be another fighter added to the list? No. But, it really does seem like a pointless choice of phrasing when there are other similar statements made throughout the Cell Games that list off characters and don't leave the statement open like that...

Again, Herms' translation: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”. Which, with my opinion that he did go into the RoSaT a second time, should have "...right now" amended to the end of it. I know nothing is said about him going in the RoSaT a second time, but to be fair, I don't remember Trunks getting one either; the only reason we can actually confirm he went back in was because his hair was long again. I think Vegeta is the only one to have one directly made about his second trip, with Cell also making a general statement to Goku about how even if everyone else did whatever the training was, they still wouldn't match our main hero. I just have a hard time buying that Piccolo wasted 5 (I think) days between Trunks exiting the RoSaT and the Cell Games by not going back in... To me at least, there is a big difference between admitting that you aren't currently at the same level as the villain, and just completely giving up on trying to get to that level when said villain is giving you time to train and he still has the means to make large strides. The latter being very uncharacteristic for the big green warrior, as up till this point, he's never backed down from a situation like this.

That's kinda the point. Of course they weren't being completely serious, Cell didn't actually want the gang dead until he told the lil bastards to kill everyone, but that doesn't mean they were scaling their power back to the level of their opponents either. All our heroes were getting the shit kicked out of them, Vegeta is the only one in any of the panels that we even see land a blow...which pisses his Junior off and leads to an immediate revenge shot. In order for the characters to remain on their feet in the battle, they need the power and stamina to keep up with the Juniors and withstand the damage they were taking from that level of combat, as Vegeta even says that they are obscenely strong and humiliating him even before Cell gave the kill order. If Piccolo was that much closer in power to the humans than the Super Saiyans, he wouldn't have been standing with the Saiyans no matter how short the fight was, he'd have been on the ground with the humans and the fatigued Goku.

[Saiga]

@Piccolo Daimao I say that the Cell Jrs weren't fucking around because the humans are alive. There's no way they'd survive against an opponent capable of fighting Super Saiyans unless said opponent wasn't being serious. They were playing. And all we see is that Piccolo is on his feet, which we've seen happen when someone is horribly outclassed by their opponent. That simply isn't enough for me to say they're fighting evenly or in the same league.

And I wasn't saying that Piccolo was weaker than the base Saiyans. He's weaker than the Super Saiyans/50% of Goku's power. And the Boo Arc may not make sense to you, but it does to me, so don't tell me to deal with it.

@TheDevilsCorpse

That's what I was trying to say: there doesn't have to be another fighter added to that list. Because of that, the statement is useless for determining whether Piccolo was holding his own or not.

It was mentioned that Trunks would be going in a second time, so there's that. Now, this part I'm a little foggy on, but doesn't Piccolo say that Goku should go back in, then he'd follow, then Vegeta would go, and then finally Trunks? No mention of him making a second trip there, either. I don't see him not making a second trip as any different from Tenshinhan turning down his turn even though they had the time for it. Tenshinhan is a proud warrior and all that, yet he has no problem accepting the futility of using the room.

I never said Piccolo was closer in power to the humans than the Super Saiyans, that'd be crazy. Piccolo is probably 10,000 times stronger than them or something along those lines. But standing on his feet doesn't mean he's in league with the Jrs or the Super Saiyans. It wouldn't be the first time a character stayed on their feet against an opponent that outclassed them.

[Michsi]

But standing on his feet doesn't mean he's in league with the Jrs or the Super Saiyans.

Applying the same reasoning, that doesn't mean that he is not either. He is not mentioned amoung those who are able "to hold their own" but neither is he depicted as getting beaten like the humans are. Of course, one could argue that since the difference between the humans and the saiyans is that colossal, you could place Piccolo well above the human level and still not have him be close to the Vegeta and the others power wise. His conditon during the fight was curiously left out, especially considering that the purpose was to drive Gohan to desperationa and Piccolo would have been one of Gohan's main concerns.

I suppose , in the end, the reason why I believe he is close to their level is simply because of his character's status at that time in the story. Toriyama didn't push him aside like he did with Tenshinhan and had this character keep training the same way the saiyans did despite the fact that no big fighting role was in store for him. Trying to figure out just who went in how many times seems pointless to me if even the author didn't care to make that clear.

[Ketchup_Revenge]

His confidence in his ability to physically beat Kaioshin had nothing to do with it.
Piccolo refused because he was "starstruck".
Piccolo understood who Kaioshin was, and in comparison, it would be like you're absolute favorite actor personally asking you to star in a high budget movie with them.
With that in mind, would you be so ancy to do it? Doubtful. It might take you some convincing.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I would imagine that Piccolo is just weaker. I mean no one knows if he had trained the 7 years not to mention Vegeta is fairly confident that he could beat Android 18 without going SSJ. The base Saiyans at this point are probably ridiculously powerful.

[Xyex]

I would imagine that Piccolo is just weaker. I mean no one knows if he had trained the 7 years

It's Piccolo. Him not training for seven years would be like Goku (well, living Goku) not eating for seven years. It's just not going to happen

not to mention Vegeta is fairly confident that he could beat Android 18 without going SSJ. The base Saiyans at this point are probably ridiculously powerful.

It's Vegeta. Cocky and arrogant is what he does. He's not going to whine "but I wont be able to beat 18 or Piccolo if I don't transform!" he's just going to go "Hmph, whatever, I'll still kick everyone's ass" regardless of the fact he's not even a fraction of 18 or Piccolo's power without SSJ.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I would imagine that Piccolo is just weaker. I mean no one knows if he had trained the 7 years

It's Piccolo. Him not training for seven years would be like Goku (well, living Goku) not eating for seven years. It's just not going to happen

not to mention Vegeta is fairly confident that he could beat Android 18 without going SSJ. The base Saiyans at this point are probably ridiculously powerful.

It's Vegeta. Cocky and arrogant is what he does. He's not going to whine "but I wont be able to beat 18 or Piccolo if I don't transform!" he's just going to go "Hmph, whatever, I'll still kick everyone's ass" regardless of the fact he's not even a fraction of 18 or Piccolo's power without SSJ.

First of all You dont know Piccolo's personality he could have stopped caring after seeing the Saiyans powers at the Cell Games. Ok seriously Vegeta is not that cocky and arrogant. He would have a problem if he knew he couldnt beat 18 in base.

[Cold Skin]

Ok seriously Vegeta is not that cocky and arrogant. He would have a problem if he knew he couldnt be 18 in base.

Hum, it would have been interesting to have a match between those two, it would have been a throw back to their past fight, but in a "friendly" way (I have to put "friendly" between quotation marks because they're probably not that close, but at least they're on the same side now).
I'm pretty sure they would have had fine lines, and it would be a nice example of time flying. They'd probably get along somehow in their common "no nonsense" warrior attitude, at least for the time of the competition.

And back on the subject: I don't think Vegeta would complain about it, the more challenge there is, the more he likes it. So we can't use his distant attitude as an indicator of either "I'm so powerful I can beat them all with my base form" nor a "oops, I might have some problems in my base form against some of them like 18 and Piccolo".

[TheMightyOzaru]

Ok seriously Vegeta is not that cocky and arrogant. He would have a problem if he knew he couldnt be 18 in base.

Hum, it would have been interesting to have a match between those two, it would have been a throw back to their past fight, but in a "friendly" way (I have to put "friendly" between quotation marks because they're probably not that close, but at least they're on the same side now).
I'm pretty sure they would have had fine lines, and it would be a nice example of time flying. They'd probably get along somehow in their common "no nonsense" warrior attitude, at least for the time of the competition.

And back on the subject: I don't think Vegeta would complain about it, the more challenge there is, the more he likes it. So we can't use his distant attitude as an indicator of either "I'm so powerful I can beat them all with my base form" nor a "oops, I might have some problems in my base form against some of them like 18 and Piccolo".

Vegeta is fairly confident he can without going SSJ he has fought 18 before and has a fairly good idea on how powerful she is. Kaioshin is also a good deal stronger than Frieza and we all know that Vegeta can kick Kaioshins ass in base. Honestly its not too outlandish to claim that Kaioshin is above 18.

[hleV]

we all know that Vegeta can kick Kaioshins ass in base.

No he cannot.

[TheMightyOzaru]

we all know that Vegeta can kick Kaioshins ass in base.

No he cannot.

Lol Yes he can Vegeta treats him like a joke and Kaioshin is constantly impressed by Vegeta's lack of power output =/.

[Fox666]

You know that is a controversial subject, don't talk like your opinion is the unquestionable truth.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You know that is a controversial subject, don't talk like your opinion is the unquestionable truth.

I suppose you are right but my opinion does have strong evidence.