Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
SSJ3_Gogeta wrote:
SSJ Gotenks (pre-rosat) vs Evil Buu (the gray, skinny one)
SSJ Goku (Baby Saga) vs Super Buu
SSJ4 Vegeta (Shadow Dragon Saga, blutz waves) vs Golden Oozaru Baby
Evil Boo wins easily, I think Gotenks pre-RoSaT still hadn't surpassed Majin Vegeta.
Goku stomps with ridiculous ease, doesn't even need Super Saiyan.
Vegeta wins, he fused with Goku after Goku had "surpassed his limits" or whatever.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Goku saw the boys full power and made the prediction that Gotenks would be superior to him.
Everyone agrees with Goku's prediction.
Piccolo thinks Gotenks is strong enough to beat Fat Buu.
Kuririn considers Gotenks as the strongest power in the world.
Goku leaves the fate of the universe in Gotenks hands, that's how confident he is in Gotenks chances.
Mjb1985 wrote:Goku saw the boys full power and made the prediction that Gotenks would be superior to him.
Everyone agrees with Goku's prediction.
Unless fusion has a set multiplier, and Goku knows what this multiplier is, and he can measure the boys powers and what the result will be with this multiplier, it means jack shit. He's never even fused himself! As for everyone agreeing, that means even less since they've never even seen fusion before.
Mjb1985 wrote:
Piccolo thinks Gotenks is strong enough to beat Fat Buu.
Kuririn considers Gotenks as the strongest power in the world.
First of all, I'm pretty sure neither of these are stated. Secondly, Piccolo thought base Gotenks might stand a chance against Evil Boo so he's a terrible judge.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Mjb1985 wrote:Everyone agrees with Goku's prediction.
Piccolo thinks Gotenks is strong enough to beat Fat Buu.
Kuririn considers Gotenks as the strongest power in the world.
I think none of these ever happened. The closest thing Piccolo said to that is his vague response "you have power, but show me your speed".
Mjb1985 wrote:Goku leaves the fate of the universe in Gotenks hands, that's how confident he is in Gotenks chances.
Or how stupid Goku is? Well, he was stupid, regardless of Gotenks' power. Majin Boo just managed to get much stronger all of a sudden, and Gotenks' personality would prevent him from defeating any opponent.
Goku does say that if the boys successfully learn fusion they will beat Boo. Though I take it as with SSJ. He did watch the metamorese use fusion and say they were nothing at first until they fused into a formidable warrior. I think fusion has a set multiplier since Goku had an expectation for his fusion with Vegeta(which initially he said only may guarantee victory, which was then surpassed greatly with how Vegetto came out). I don't see Goku wasting his time with Gotenks if he couldn't do it. Gotenks would have to be at least stronger then the power Goku showed when he fought Fat Boo(it wasn't his full power) or else Goku would not have wasted his time. I don't see Goku risking his son and Vegeta's son if he didn't think they could win. He risked the fate of earth on Gohan because he knew he had the power to win, but there was a chance he could still be killed. I don't see Goku saying fusion will definitely beat Boo (again I say with SSJ) if the boys couldn't be stronger then Goku's power in his initial fight Goku isn't stupid when it comes to fighting. Goku knows what he is talking about.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Also the only fusion indicator we have is that GT lists Gogeta SSJ4 as several tens of times stronger then SSJ4. So then we have fusion around 20x-110x. Goku even says someone stronger then him will fight Boo, which can be counted as a retcon or what Toriyama added in. It's not the first time since we had Goku first say it was impossible for him to beat Fat Boo, then he changed what he said later.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Even if fusion has a set multiplier, how on Earth would Goku know what it is without some form of scouter? We've never gotten anything to say that sensing ki is that precise. It seems unreasonable for Goku to be able to watch one fusion, then be able to mentally gauge what another fusion will produce. I see it as nothing more than a guess.
As for Goku gambling the world on Gotenks winning, that was just plan irresponsible from the start if he could have won after all, regardless of whether he knew or not.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Saiga wrote:Even if fusion has a set multiplier, how on Earth would Goku know what it is without some form of scouter? We've never gotten anything to say that sensing ki is that precise. It seems unreasonable for Goku to be able to watch one fusion, then be able to mentally gauge what another fusion will produce. I see it as nothing more than a guess.
As for Goku gambling the world on Gotenks winning, that was just plan irresponsible from the start if he could have won after all, regardless of whether he knew or not.
Goku got an idea for what fusion produces. Goku could probably have an idea what the fusion would be since he trained with the metamorese and witnessed fusion. So he should have the best idea of what the result should be and how it works. A week of training and learning about fusion should give him a good idea, unlike trying the potara and hoping for the best.
Goku has never gambled anyone's lives if they would most likely die. I don't see Goku as someone who would risk his own sons life in a battle he didn't think he had a chance in. Goku didn't kill Boo because he believed Goten and Trunks's fusion would be enough to kill him. He didn't kill Boo because he was dead and felt it was wrong for a dead guy to solve the problem of the mortal plain. I don't see Goku putting the boys lives at risk if their was not a chance they couldn't win. Considering the idea toei gives us, the idea fusion is extremely powerful, and Goku guaranteeing victory and never doubting it, I'm sure SSJ Gotenks would win.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Saiga wrote:Of course he was confident and thought Gotenks would win.
That doesn't mean he's right.
Doesn't mean he was wrong either.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Saiga wrote:Of course he was confident and thought Gotenks would win.
That doesn't mean he's right.
Doesn't mean he was wrong either.
So? I'm not trying to argue that he was wrong because he was confident. Just that him having confidence isn't conclusive either way, and Gotenks has nothing to put him on Boo's level.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Saiga wrote:Of course he was confident and thought Gotenks would win.
That doesn't mean he's right.
Doesn't mean he was wrong either.
So? I'm not trying to argue that he was wrong because he was confident. Just that him having confidence isn't conclusive either way, and Gotenks has nothing to put him on Boo's level.
Again this works both ways. I see Goku being right since he wouldn't put his son at risk if he wasn't sure he could win. Goku wouldn't gamble his son's life if his power wouldn't be greater or stand a chance. Toriyama did throw in the manga people stronger then Goku will fight Boo. Knowing Toriyama who mostly rights on the fly and is forgetful, he must have added that line in for a reason.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:
Again this works both ways. I see Goku being right since he wouldn't put his son at risk if he wasn't sure he could win. Goku wouldn't gamble his son's life if his power wouldn't be greater or stand a chance. Toriyama did throw in the manga people stronger then Goku will fight Boo. Knowing Toriyama who mostly rights on the fly and is forgetful, he must have added that line in for a reason.
It doesn't go both ways - Goku's statement simply isn't conclusive by itself.
And Toriyama's line doesn't mean anything either, both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan were stronger than Boo.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
dbzfan7 wrote:
Again this works both ways. I see Goku being right since he wouldn't put his son at risk if he wasn't sure he could win. Goku wouldn't gamble his son's life if his power wouldn't be greater or stand a chance. Toriyama did throw in the manga people stronger then Goku will fight Boo. Knowing Toriyama who mostly rights on the fly and is forgetful, he must have added that line in for a reason.
It doesn't go both ways - Goku's statement simply isn't conclusive by itself.
And Toriyama's line doesn't mean anything either, both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan were stronger than Boo.
Goku thought Gohan was dead at the time, and Gotenks was the only fighter he thought was left (which is who he was referring to), and this was before SSJ3 Gotenks appeared. I think knowing Goku's character he would know what he is doing. Why would he risk the boys lives if they couldn't win. Gohan was put at risk because he was positive Gohan could beat Cell. Goku would not risk the boys lives if they couldn't win. He says they will definitely win. He would have said they might win, but he says they can win. He makes a huge deal out of fusion. If to weaklings can become something special, Then a fusion between extremely strong kids in SSJ would be extraordinary. I don't see them being weaker then Boo. But I see where you are coming from.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Doesn't Goku admit the whole plan's a "gamble" to Piccolo or someone?
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Doesn't Goku admit the whole plan's a "gamble" to Piccolo or someone?
The gamble was learning fusion in 2 days when it took Goku a week. Goku says with fusion the boys will definitely win.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yea Goku stated multiple times that Gotenks would win. Why do you guys think your prediction on Gotenks would be superior to Goku's? One of the most reliable sources in all of the manga. And his statement , suggestion , is never contradicted. Logic?
Mjb1985 wrote:Yea Goku stated multiple times that Gotenks would win. Why do you guys think your prediction on Gotenks would be superior to Goku's? One of the most reliable sources in all of the manga. And his statement , suggestion , is never contradicted. Logic?
Just because someone states something doesn't make it right, even if it isn't contradicted.
It wasn't contradicted, but it wasn't proven either. If Goku had actually seen Gotenks as a Super Saiyan and made that judgement, fair enough. But he was talking about something he hadn't even seen.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
