How does Ultimate Gohan really compare to Ssj3 Goku?

[Dabooyaka]

This is an issue that people keep bringing up. We all know that Gohan is stronger than Goku, but by how much is the question? I've people have Gohan 1000x stronger than Goku, and frankly, I think that's just stupid.
When I saw this quote, I think I may have found a small implications as to how they compare.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…

Now, what does this quote say? The people have to be relatively close in body shape AND POWER, and then they have to make their Ki's identical. That means that Ultimate Gohan, and Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be close in power. Now, how close? Well, that's up to you to think whatever you want. I just know that Gohan being hundreds of times stronger than Goku doesn't qualify as being close in power.

Then we have Goku saying the he wanted to use the metamorian fusion with Gohan to kill Boo.

Finally, we have Goku saying that he wasn't able to try out in the afterlife because there was nobody on par with him, so him trying it was impossible. Now, what does this tell us?

That while Gohan is stronger than Goku, the difference is not a ridiculous as some people might think..

Thoughts?

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Well the part you are talking about was before Gohan has his power unlocked by elder kaioshin if I'm remembering correctly.

I'd say SSJ gotenks post ROSAT a bit higher than SSJ3 Goku, so I'd place SSJ3 Gotenks about 9-10 x stronger than Goku and Ultimate Gohan about 15-20 x stronger, depending on how much more powerful than Gotenks you think Ultimate Gohan was.
Hell I could be miles off but that's where I place him

[Dabooyaka]

When Old Kai gave Goku his life, he wanted to go back to Earth and fuse with Gohan. That was before he learned the Potara existed.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

I thought the part you are talking about was when Gohan and Vegeta were defeated by buu and Goku was still on earth before even showing SSJ3, then when Goku realises he has no one to fuse with mr popo recommends Goten and Trunks to learn fusion. I think that's what happened, if not I should really read the manga again

[Undertaker]

Ultimate Gohan is several hundreds of times stronger than SSjin 3 Goku IMO.

Ultimate Gohan >> SSjin 3 Gotenks >/~ Evil Boo >>> SSjin 2 Gotenks (hypothetical) >>> SSjin Gotenks (Post) >>>> Base Gotenks (Post) >> SSjin Gotenks (Piccolo's hopes) >> SSjin Gotenks (Pre) > SSjin 3 Goku.

Ultimate Gohan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSjin 3 Goku.

Ultimate Gohan is 550X SSjin 3 Goku IMO.

[Kaboom]

I thought the part you are talking about was when Gohan and Vegeta were defeated by buu and Goku was still on earth before even showing SSJ3, then when Goku realises he has no one to fuse with mr popo recommends Goten and Trunks to learn fusion. I think that's what happened, if not I should really read the manga again

In this case, he's talking about later on, when Gotenks-Boo is kicking Gohan around and Goku has the idea for Fusion, BEFORE the Potara are introduced to him. If that's the case, then it might suggest there's not as huge a gap between SSj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan as other things suggest there is. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with that.

But at the same time, the inverse becomes a problem with the first instance. Goku considers Gohan a candidate for Fusion with him, but at the time, Goku's full power is a whopping 4.5x great than Gohan's, because of Super Saiyan 3.

Perhaps the simple answer is that Super Saiyan forms don't matter in the Fusion Dance unless both characters are actually using them? Which is to say, Goku would be able to use the Fusion Dance with Gohan or Vegeta so long as they stuck to base, Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan 2, but Super Saiyan 3 wouldn't factor in (that was certainly the case for Goku and Vegeta in Movie 12). But later on, Goku might need Super Saiyan 3 to get close enough to Ultimate Gohan to fuse with him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

While Gohan doesn't transform into Ultimate Gohan, since it's not even a transformation, Gohan seems to have a "suppressed state".



So, I guess if Gohan suppress his power, Fusion with base Goku would work.

As for how Gohan compares to Goku, we have from the manga:

SS3 Goku stronger than Innocent Boo,
SS Gotenks stronger than Innocent Boo (probably),
Evil Boo stronger than Innocent Boo, SS3 Goku, and SS Gotenks,
SS3 Gotenks equal or stronger than Evil Boo,
Ultimate Gohan stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

IMO, it is like this: Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Boo > SS3 Goku > SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo

Ultimate Gohan should be about ten times stronger than SS3 Goku, IMO.

[Undertaker]

While Gohan doesn't transform into Ultimate Gohan, since it's not even a transformation, Gohan seems to have a "suppressed state".



So, I guess if Gohan suppress his power, Fusion with base Goku would work.

As for how Gohan compares to Goku, we have from the manga:

SS3 Goku stronger than Innocent Boo,
SS Gotenks stronger than Innocent Boo (probably),
Evil Boo stronger than Innocent Boo, SS3 Goku, and SS Gotenks,
SS3 Gotenks equal or stronger than Evil Boo,
Ultimate Gohan stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

IMO, it is like this: Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Boo > SS3 Goku > SS Gotenks > Innocent Boo

Ultimate Gohan should be about ten times stronger than SS3 Goku, IMO.

This is because Ultimate Gohan might had not being in his mightiest warriors self after being absorbed by Boo. That's debatable. SSjin Gotenks (Pre) is at least equal to SSjin 3 Goku. Inoccent Boo is Good Boo while Fat Boo is Majin Boo. All the Boos are Majin Boo but still.

[Saiga]

I don't think Goku's comment means much, at this point he was completely out of other options. We don't know if it would have actually worked.

[Mystic Gohan]

I don't see the quote as meaning much. Goku says that you need to be close in power, but it is clear that no matter what your gap is, Goku is nowhere near Mystic Gohan's power.

As for my personal gaps, well I have rather large gaps going by: Mystic Gohan >> SSjin 3 Gotenks >>> SSjin 2 Gotenks >>> SSjin Gotenks Post >>> base Gotenks Post >>> SSjin Gotenks Pre > SSjin 3 Goku.

[Dabooyaka]

Having base Gotenks post stronger than Ssj Gotenks pre is why your gaps are so big.

[Mystic Gohan]

Having base Gotenks post stronger than Ssj Gotenks pre is why your gaps are so big.

Very true, but alas that's what I feel is implied in the manga.

[Saiga]

The only thing to imply it is Piccolo's comment which turns out to be completely and utterly wrong.

[Bussani]

There's also Trunks's comment about them probably being a match for Buu with a regular fusion Gotenks.

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

We don't know which Buu he's referring to, of course, and it could just be Trunks overestimating himself. I was also wondering if "regular state fusion" might include Super Saiyan, since everything is "regular" compared to "Super Gotenks" (aka Super Saiyan 3). But the way it's worded in Japanese does make it seem like they're talking about Gotenks's regular state, specifically, so maybe not...

[Saiga]

Ok, so there's also Trunks' completely wrong statement.

It doesn't even need to imply that Gotenks' base is now stronger than Super Saiyan, if Trunks believed that Super Saiyan Gotenks was already enough to beat Boo (which he most likely did).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is because Ultimate Gohan might had not being in his mightiest warriors self after being absorbed by Boo. That's debatable.

Why? He's eyes are still enclosed. And he looked like this before going to fight. I can't see anything suggesting in the manga that Gohan lost his power.

SSjin Gotenks (Pre) is at least equal to SSjin 3 Goku.

I believe that SS Gotenks (post) is a little weaker than SS3 Goku, because I can. Nothing goes against it.

Inoccent Boo is Good Boo while Fat Boo is Majin Boo. All the Boos are Majin Boo but still.

Below are the official names of all the forms of Majin Boo:

Majin Boo (Innocent/Good)/Mr. Boo


Note:
Majin Boo (Innocent): before expelling his evil side.
Majin Boo (Good): after expelling his evil side.
Mr. Boo: after getting expelled from Pure Boo.

Majin Boo (Pure Evil)


Majin Boo (Evil)


Majin Boo (Gotenks & Piccolo absorbed)


Majin Boo (Piccolo, Goten & Trunks absorbed)


Majin Boo (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten & Trunks absorbed)


Majin Boo (Piccolo absorbed)


Majin Boo (Kaioshin or the South absorbed)


Majin Boo (Pure)

[Mystic Gohan]

The only thing to imply it is Piccolo's comment which turns out to be completely and utterly wrong.

Super Boo (rosat) >>> base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (outside rosat). Simple.

[TheMightyOzaru]

This is an issue that people keep bringing up. We all know that Gohan is stronger than Goku, but by how much is the question? I've people have Gohan 1000x stronger than Goku, and frankly, I think that's just stupid.
When I saw this quote, I think I may have found a small implications as to how they compare.
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…

Now, what does this quote say? The people have to be relatively close in body shape AND POWER, and then they have to make their Ki's identical. That means that Ultimate Gohan, and Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be close in power. Now, how close? Well, that's up to you to think whatever you want. I just know that Gohan being hundreds of times stronger than Goku doesn't qualify as being close in power.

Then we have Goku saying the he wanted to use the metamorian fusion with Gohan to kill Boo.

Finally, we have Goku saying that he wasn't able to try out in the afterlife because there was nobody on par with him, so him trying it was impossible. Now, what does this tell us?

That while Gohan is stronger than Goku, the difference is not a ridiculous as some people might think..

Thoughts?

considering this quote is well before Gohan goes mystic it is a non point. Furthermore Gohan can lower his power level to match that of Goku's. It wouldn't make the fusion as powerful but it would be enough to get the job done. Lastly SSJ3 Goku states outright he can't take Super Buu where as Gohan mutilated him. I have Gohan at 10x stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga. Now there is something interesting to note here though:
Akira Toriyama:"When it comes to battle, the most important thing is KI SIZE, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe"
1, Toriyama states outright that Goku is the strongest in the universe.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/
Its also stated in the Daizenshuu's that Goku is the number 1 strongest in the universe. This would lead me to believe that Goku does surpass Gohan somewhere within the 10 year time period. I personally think SSJ3 Goku is a little over twice as strong as Gohan was when he became mystic 10 years ago. Now of course we could also assume that Gohan lost his mystic form somewhere along the way thus making Toriyama's and the Guides statement correct without having to make Goku stronger than Gohan was 10 years ago. With the new movie coming out it would seem Gohan has lost his mystic power up so we can't really say for sure whether SSJ3 Goku ever did surpass Gohan's full power. I personally think he did but thats just my opinion.

[Saiga]

The only thing to imply it is Piccolo's comment which turns out to be completely and utterly wrong.

Super Boo (rosat) >>> base Gotenks (post) ~ Super Boo (outside rosat). Simple.

That's... not very simple at all. Why did Super Boo's strength change without any visible power up? Why didn't Piccolo notice?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The whole "base Gotenks (post) > SS Gotenks (pre)" was just a gag, not to mentioned that Piccolo realised that he was wrong.