Unpopular DB opinions

[Storm]

People would fly to Japan to beat them to death. And if they couldn't afford to fly to Japan they'd mail letter bombs.

Kind of a violent train of thought you've boarded here, isn't it?

I can't explain what the reaction was because I was not in Japan in the late 80s, nor was I alive, but it seems that Z is more popular there like it is in the United States et al. So maybe they though it was an improvement on the story? Keep in mind as well that Dragon Ball is roughly half the length of Z, whereas the Big 3 are all much further along and have better established rules at this point.

EDIT: Also, there's a throwaway line from Oolong during the Pilaf Saga that he wonders if Goku is an alien.

[Sun-Wukong]

If Kubo or Kishimoto or Oda suddenly said "oh, by the way, Ichigo/Naruto/Luffy are really aliens and your mentor knew all along but he didn't mention this until hundreds of chapters later and you don't remember because you bumped your head" - the internet would explode. People would fly to Japan to beat them to death. And if they couldn't afford to fly to Japan they'd mail letter bombs.

Well, there are some integral differences between Goku and the rest of those characters. They are all outcasts, but Goku to a much more exaggerated degree.

He literally grows up in the middle of the woods and never has any human contact aside from his adoptive grandfather until he's twelve years old, and there's a great deal of mystery surrounding his origin from the beginning. If it was revealed that Naruto was an alien, it wouldn't make any sense because he had grown up surrounded by people, in society; the same applies to Ichigo and Luffy, especially the former.

[ABED]

It just feels like everything before his final form is completely pointless, and he only had those forms so nobody but Goku could scuff the "real" Freeza.

Definitely agree with you there. Everything before Goku arrives means absolutely nothing. You might as well skip everything before that. And it's not that the forms are necessarily pointless in and of themselves. It's just that Toriyama went about the exactly the wrong way of showcasing them. As soon as it's shown that Freeza can transform at will, then it immediately makes everything before the final form pointless because it doesn't matter how well anyone fights against him. He can top them whenever he wants. So it really makes Piccolo's entrance into the battle completely pointless as well. He gets brought back to life, gets this huge power-up... and it's totally meaningless because he's putting up a fight against a form that's entirely meaningless.

I think the point is to give the Z Team false hope.

[Saiga]

Freeza's third form was even more useless than previously mentioned because his second form was already beating up Piccolo anyway, after his final power up. Sure Piccolo ditched the weights, but that wasn't shown making any difference.

[rereboy]

... and the idea of them being created to control his ki was pointless when he showed much finer ki suppression in his final form (going from around 3,000,000 to 120,000,000 when his earlier forms were from 530,000 to under 3,000,000).

If he can't suppress his power below 3.000.000 in his final form, I'm sure his lower forms are useful in his interaction with other beings and his environment. Sure, his final form has more range if we compare them, but when someone is so much stronger than anything else and can't really suppress his power all that well, the difference provided by his lowers forms should be useful.

[The Monkey King]

Well first, there weren't any Saiyans in Part 1.

Except Goku.

I swear to God I don't know how Toriyama got away with this.

If Kubo or Kishimoto or Oda suddenly said "oh, by the way, Ichigo/Naruto/Luffy are really aliens and your mentor knew all along but he didn't mention this until hundreds of chapters later and you don't remember because you bumped your head" - the internet would explode. People would fly to Japan to beat them to death. And if they couldn't afford to fly to Japan they'd mail letter bombs.

At least it explains why Goku is so strong, has a tail, can transform into a giant monkey and is stronger than everyone else as a child by a large margin. Naruto etc just don't have something that random such as a naturally growing tail

[ABED]

Freeza's third form was even more useless than previously mentioned because his second form was already beating up Piccolo anyway, after his final power up. Sure Piccolo ditched the weights, but that wasn't shown making any difference.

I completely disagree. Piccolo was more than holding his own. I don't quite remember how it goes in the anime but in the manga, Freeza transforms almost immediately after Piccolo removes his weighted clothes.

There's no other point to it beyond enjoying it. Why does he have that many transformations? Because it gives Toriyama something interesting to draw, and from a story point, whatever moments of hope the Z Team has are quickly dashed with each subsequent transformation. Buu's transformations are worse because they don't really make sense.

[KingofWisdom]

I was initially disappointed with Super Saiyan God because does Goku really need to continue getting power spikes? If this keeps up, then by the end of the series, Goku will be able to beat the non-Saiyan Z-Fighters by blowing at them.

So, yeah, I don't like how the Saiyans completely overshadow everyone else.

[RandomGuy96]

Vegeta is one of my least favorite characters. I think that's unpopular, because he's supposed to be well-loved. He's pretty cool in the Namek arc, but after that he loses all of his IQ points, and so do the heroes, because they keep trying to pretend that he's a good guy. His rivalry with Goku is also lame and pointless, because it's never really a rivalry; there is only one time in the series where he is near Goku, the Android Arc, and even that is quickly rendered irrelevant when Goku surpasses him a few days later. Also, this may sound weird, but I think he's a "kill stealer". By which I mean I think he gets to off too many second string villains, to the detriment of other characters. Come on, Krillin at least deserved to beat Guldo or Jeice (after his power-up, where his power level spiked to 75,000).

I also think that Freeza's third form looked the coolest, but I also know that it was by far the most pointless, as it was never overcome in combat or anything, so he never needed to go to final form. The design of it also never gets brought up again, while his first and second forms are reused for the designs of his ancestor and father respectively.

[Kid Buu]

It depends on what you mean by "useful". DB was not an ensemble cast story - it was Goku's story. He went around pummeling the armies and villains. The other heroes maybe did something here and there in the regular arc but their best place to show off was in the tournament.

So yeah, the heroes weren't useful in that they were going around defeating the Red Ribbon Army or King Piccolo but they weren't worthless either. They were all impressive fighters in their own right.

In fact, now I think on it, the tournaments really helped a lot of the side-characters look good even if they weren't actually as good as Goku. Goku vs. Krillin? Yamcha vs. Tenshinhan? Neither Krillin or Yamcha stood a cahnce but neither fight was so bad that they came out of it looking like garbage.

That's the difference between DB Part 1 and Part 2 - all the side-characters just looked pathetic.

Well I don't know, they still get to battle in the fight against the Saiyans and while they lost they did get some spotlight (Yamcha beats a Saibaman before dying, Krillin throws Genki Dama, Yajirobe cuts off tail).

Freeza arc they are dead in so don't do much, but in the Cell arc Krillin is omnipresent and Tien gets time to shine in that arc. I suppose you are right if referring to the Buu arc though.

One thing I prefer over the first half of the series is Yamcha's design, I loved his Pilaf arc design. In Z he looked like a wannabe-Saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

It depends on what you mean by "useful". DB was not an ensemble cast story - it was Goku's story. He went around pummeling the armies and villains. The other heroes maybe did something here and there in the regular arc but their best place to show off was in the tournament.

So yeah, the heroes weren't useful in that they were going around defeating the Red Ribbon Army or King Piccolo but they weren't worthless either. They were all impressive fighters in their own right.

In fact, now I think on it, the tournaments really helped a lot of the side-characters look good even if they weren't actually as good as Goku. Goku vs. Krillin? Yamcha vs. Tenshinhan? Neither Krillin or Yamcha stood a cahnce but neither fight was so bad that they came out of it looking like garbage.

That's the difference between DB Part 1 and Part 2 - all the side-characters just looked pathetic.

So you're saying that you just miss the tournaments? Because in all of the other arcs they were instant fodder and did nothing useful. In Z, Tien and Krillin got to actually do important things, and the humans did get a tournament-like moment to shine in the Ginyu Force filler, and against the Saibamen.

I wouldn't say so. Krillin usually looked good- in fact he's one of my favorite characters simply because of his massive titanium balls, when he takes on and lasts against opponents way stronger than him. Piccolo is of course a badass, and he also gets his time to shine (and once again, he also gets a good deal in the movies), while the Saiyans actually help balance out the scale because it shows someone other than Goku do something. For example, even though I don't like the Cell Saga, I do like how everyone got to do something and it's just not just a Goku-fest like the original Dragon Ball. Who defeats Cyborg Freeza? Not Goku, but Trunks. Who defeats 19 and 20? Not Goku, but Vegeta and Piccolo. Who fights Androids 17 and 18 evenly? Not Goku, but Vegeta and Piccolo again (more so the latter). Who defeats the first forms of the main villain, Cell? Not Goku, but Piccolo, then Vegeta and Trunks. Who actually stands and fights against the Cell Juniors? Again, Piccolo, Trunks, and Vegeta, while Goku was on the ground. Who finally defeats Cell? Not Goku, but Gohan, while Goku actually got killed by Cell.

The Buu arc continues this, and it was going good until the end, where it became a Goku-fest again.

Don't get me wrong, I do wish that the non-Saiyans stayed relevant and got to do more things (part of the reason why I labelled Vegeta a kill stealer above), but the original Dragon Ball wasn't really any better about this...

Also, your power tier is really wrong. Krillin is stronger than Tien and the Supreme Kai is WAY above the androids. Though I think you weren't trying to represent a power tier, since you also have Freeza above Androids 16, 17 and 18, and Future Trunks above some form of Buu...

[Kid Buu]

Vegeta is one of my least favorite characters. I think that's unpopular, because he's supposed to be well-loved. He's pretty cool in the Namek arc, but after that he loses all of his IQ points, and so do the heroes,

Agree with this.

because they keep trying to pretend that he's a good guy. His rivalry with Goku is also lame and pointless, because it's never really a rivalry; there is only one time in the series where he is near Goku, the Android Arc, and even that is quickly rendered irrelevant when Goku surpasses him a few days later.

Vegeta is actually stronger the entire Android arc, only after RoSaT does Goku surpass him.

Also, this may sound weird, but I think he's a "kill stealer". By which I mean I think he gets to off too many second string villains, to the detriment of other characters. Come on, Krillin at least deserved to beat Guldo or Jeice (after his power-up, where his power level spiked to 75,000)..

I don't remember Krillin being near 75,000...I remember him and Gohan struggling against 23,000 Ginyu. I don't think this is the right thread to talk about "VS" stuff though.

[RandomGuy96]

That's what I said. Goku surpasses him a few days later, and leaves him in the dust forever.

Never mind, his level was 75,000 at the beginning of the Freeza fight.

[Kid Buu]

That's what I said. Goku surpasses him a few days later, and leaves him in the dust forever.

Never mind, his level was 75,000 at the beginning of the Freeza fight.

there is only one time in the series where he is near Goku, the Android Arc,

I mean the way you said it came across that Vegeta was near Goku but still behind, where as Vegeta was actually stronger. But whatever, I get what you meant.

I too did not like the rivalry, my main problem was that Vegeta defeated Goku in the first battle anyway! I guess yeah he was pissed that Goku went SSJ1, but so did Vegeta. The rivarly seemed silly to me.

[ABED]

Letting Vegeta go so he could have another fight was more honorable than letting Freeza live.

[ABED]

That's what I said. Goku surpasses him a few days later, and leaves him in the dust forever.

Never mind, his level was 75,000 at the beginning of the Freeza fight.

there is only one time in the series where he is near Goku, the Android Arc,

I mean the way you said it came across that Vegeta was near Goku but still behind, where as Vegeta was actually stronger. But whatever, I get what you meant.

I too did not like the rivalry, my main problem was that Vegeta defeated Goku in the first battle anyway! I guess yeah he was pissed that Goku went SSJ1, but so did Vegeta. The rivarly seemed silly to me.

Vegeta was upset because Goku took him almost to his limit. He felt he had to transform to win. The Saiyans had a caste system, and Goku was a lower class. In Vegeta's mind, that shouldn't have happened. It was humiliating to him. You are trying to use logic on an inherently illogical person. Haven't you ever met someone who was unhappy with what they have even if they have a lot?

[RandomGuy96]

I mean the way you said it came across that Vegeta was near Goku but still behind, where as Vegeta was actually stronger. But whatever, I get what you meant.

I too did not like the rivalry, my main problem was that Vegeta defeated Goku in the first battle anyway! I guess yeah he was pissed that Goku went SSJ1, but so did Vegeta. The rivarly seemed silly to me.

I said that more to emphasize how behind he is every other time. He's way less than 2% of Goku's strength on Namek, way weaker than Goku after the ROSAT, and well over four times weaker than Goku in the Buu Saga, even after he uses dark magic to try to make them even.

Again, my main problem was that Vegeta was nowhere close for most of the show and Goku never really gave a crap. It also felt out of place and forced in the Buu Saga, probably just used as an excuse to make Vegeta be dumb enough to release Buu.

Also: I like the Lord Slug movie.

[Saiga]

Freeza's third form was even more useless than previously mentioned because his second form was already beating up Piccolo anyway, after his final power up. Sure Piccolo ditched the weights, but that wasn't shown making any difference.

I completely disagree. Piccolo was more than holding his own. I don't quite remember how it goes in the anime but in the manga, Freeza transforms almost immediately after Piccolo removes his weighted clothes.

That's what I mean, though. We didn't even see Freeza need to transform, because he pre-emptively did so. Before he did, he was winning. Piccolo ditched the weights, we don't get to see if they would have actually mattered, because Freeza then transforms.

There's no other point to it beyond enjoying it. Why does he have that many transformations? Because it gives Toriyama something interesting to draw, and from a story point, whatever moments of hope the Z Team has are quickly dashed with each subsequent transformation. Buu's transformations are worse because they don't really make sense.

That's not a very good point to them. I don't enjoy them because they're so pointless. At least Boo's forms were out of necessity.

[Kid Buu]

I like Lord Slug too. Don't understand the whole "its a rehash of King Piccolo saga" complaint, I mean all the movies borrow stuff from the show.

Letting Vegeta go so he could have another fight was more honorable than letting Freeza live.

Agreed.

That's what I said. Goku surpasses him a few days later, and leaves him in the dust forever.

Never mind, his level was 75,000 at the beginning of the Freeza fight.

there is only one time in the series where he is near Goku, the Android Arc,

I mean the way you said it came across that Vegeta was near Goku but still behind, where as Vegeta was actually stronger. But whatever, I get what you meant.

I too did not like the rivalry, my main problem was that Vegeta defeated Goku in the first battle anyway! I guess yeah he was pissed that Goku went SSJ1, but so did Vegeta. The rivarly seemed silly to me.

Vegeta was upset because Goku took him almost to his limit. He felt he had to transform to win. The Saiyans had a caste system, and Goku was a lower class. In Vegeta's mind, that shouldn't have happened. It was humiliating to him. You are trying to use logic on an inherently illogical person. Haven't you ever met someone who was unhappy with what they have even if they have a lot?

Fair, but dude, without trying to be overdramatic on the internet, I'm kind of taking offense to You are trying to use logic on an inherently illogical person. That line could apply to almost any debate on the series.

[ABED]

I didn't mean it that sense, sorry. I'm not the best at expressing myself, I'm not a great writer. I'll try and phrase it better. Vegeta is irrational. If he was real, and you were came to him with a rational argument as to why he shouldn't be so upset, I don't think he'd listen because he's irrational. That's perfectly okay for the villain.