Mastered SSJ, Freeza's 100% and Cooler's 5th Form.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Yes, yet another topic involving Cooler and Freeza's transformations and full power made once again by me!

So, ignoring V-Jump, who thinks it can be interpreted that Cooler's 5th Form is superior to Freeza's 100% purely by the fact that it might not drain his power like Mastered Super Saiya-Jin is over regular/ Grade II but might actually have the exact same boost to his power as Freeza's 100% did from 70%?

[Tyro]

Freeza stated that his transformations work counter-intuitively by suppressing his power because he alludes to being so powerful that he's unstable in some form or another (most people assume it's some kind of mental stress buildup he can't handle over long periods of time). I think it's safe to say that Cooler has his power under control because he's always in what appears to be his real form. If Freeza could come up with a way to suppress his power through transformations I don't see why Cooler couldn't have found a way to go in the opposite direction and create a transformation to maximize it.

[RandomGuy96]

No, it's far superior in terms of power, this is flat-out stated in the movie and supplemental materials like magazines and video games. Plus, in the movie, Goku flat-out states Cooler is stronger than Freeza. Later he gets shocked that his kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha didn't kill Cooler- despite already knowing Cooler > Freeza- indicating that he's not just a little stronger, he's a lot stronger.

V-Jump places Cooler at 470,000,000 and Freeza at 120,000,000. Shonen Jump listed Cooler's power level as "immeasurable", yet had measurements for SS Namek Goku and 100% Freeza, which to me indicates they're far below. Some video games, like BT3 / B3 / BT2, say Cooler's final form is greater than or equal to Freeza's final form in character references and loading screens, and that his fifth transformation raises his power (that power being on par with or better than Freeza to begin with) massively. It's also stated and heavily implied at different points in Movie 5 that fifth form Cooler is way stronger than Freeza, though I've said that before.

[Kaboom]

Since Goku actually flat-out said that Coola was "stronger than Freeza" once transformed, I don't think it's just a matter of "same power, but more stable/usable." At the very least, Coola's at least a little stronger than 100% Freeza.

But this is an idea that I've entertained before... Coola trying to pump himself up by means of a new form that can handle it, instead of forcing it all into a previous one that can't, could be a good way of explaining it, and even explain where the extra power comes from. Sort of like a full-fledged Super Saiyan 2 compared to Grade 2.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Everyone keeps saying that Coola was stronger than Freeza and says it's somehow proof that the transformation was completely different from 100% power state. In actuality, there's probably a minuscule difference, if any, between Coola's transformation and his 100% state. His full power is just that much more ahead of Freeza's.

[Kamiccolo9]

Everyone keeps saying that Coola was stronger than Freeza and says it's somehow proof that the transformation was completely different from 100% power state. In actuality, there's probably a minuscule difference, if any, between Coola's transformation and his 100% state. His full power is just that much more ahead of Freeza's.

Proof? If Cooler wasn't much stronger after he transformed, then why was he able to dominate Goku so easily when he had been equal to, or slightly weaker than him previously? And why wouldn't his transformation be stronger than his 100% state? Freeza's 2nd form was much stronger than 100% of his first form, and Super Saiyan Goku is much stronger than 100% of Goku in base. Transformation tend to bring about a huge increase in power.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Everyone keeps saying that Coola was stronger than Freeza and says it's somehow proof that the transformation was completely different from 100% power state. In actuality, there's probably a minuscule difference, if any, between Coola's transformation and his 100% state. His full power is just that much more ahead of Freeza's.

Proof? If Cooler wasn't much stronger after he transformed, then why was he able to dominate Goku so easily when he had been equal to, or slightly weaker than him previously? And why wouldn't his transformation be stronger than his 100% state? Freeza's 2nd form was much stronger than 100% of his first form, and Super Saiyan Goku is much stronger than 100% of Goku in base. Transformation tend to bring about a huge increase in power.

Mastered Super Saiya-Jin is not stronger than regular Super Saiya-Jin, though. Just more efficient.

Cooler was not using 100% of his power in his 4th state; his body didn't resemble Freeza's 100% state until the middle of his transformation and after so we don't know how strong he actually was and we don't know the difference between his fifth and fourth forms.

[Kaboom]

I think this whole question is just one big "who knows?" sort of deal.

Maybe Coola's new form really does just allow him to channel his 100% power more efficiently, and he'd end up stronger than Freeza either way. Or maybe it adds some extra power on top of his own 100%, and he'd cap out at somewhat weaker than Freeza without it. As far as I know, the only positive thing we know is "in his 5th form, Coola is stronger than Freeza."

[RandomGuy96]

I think Cooler's base form is more comparable to Mastered SS than his super form. His super form is more comparable to SS2.

...I wonder how powerful Cooler (and a lot villains, actually) would be if he actually trained, like the heroes?

[Kamiccolo9]

I think Cooler's base form is more comparable to Mastered SS than his super form. His super form is more comparable to SS2.

...I wonder how powerful Cooler (and a lot villains, actually) would be if he actually trained, like the heroes?

I think Cooler has trained. He's shown to be able to remain in his true form, unlike his brother, and he can sense ki. He's at least had more training than his brother.

[RandomGuy96]

He must have trained at least a little bit to be able to even use his powers and techniques in the first place, but I meant if he trained religiously like the protagonists. I don't see why an advanced galactic empire like his wouldn't have things like gravity rooms.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I don't think he can sense ki, but that seems like a possibility.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think he can sense ki, but that seems like a possibility.

He knows Shunkan Ido, and never wears a scouter.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think he can sense ki, but that seems like a possibility.

Well, he can use Instant Transmission in movie 6, he can tell that Goku is "powerful enough to defeat his brother," and he always manages to show up where people are fighting, all without a scouter. I think that's it's highly plausible that he can sense ki.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

He says he could see how Freeza underestimated him, and when Gokuu overpowers him as a SSJ, then of course he's going to believe he killed Freeza.

I don't think he can sense ki, but that seems like a possibility.

He knows Shunkan Ido, and never wears a scouter.

Meta Cooler is a mechanical production with computer sensory, most likely specifically for ki to absorb it.

[Saiga]

He must have trained at least a little bit to be able to even use his powers and techniques in the first place, but I meant if he trained religiously like the protagonists. I don't see why an advanced galactic empire like his wouldn't have things like gravity rooms.

Because they just didn't think of it?

[Kaboom]

Maybe most races don't have physically tough bodies capable of handling high gravity like Saiyans do? I mean, I'm sure most strong people can withstand and train in 10x gravity or something like Planet Vegeta had, but I get the feeling that only the strongest of the strong, notably Saiyans, could end up thriving in the 100x-or-more levels that Goku and Vegeta used. Freeza and his family almost certainly could, but I don't think it would be a widespread thing.

[RandomGuy96]

He says he could see how Freeza underestimated him, and when Gokuu overpowers him as a SSJ, then of course he's going to believe he killed Freeza.

No, he specifically said that base Goku could defeat Freeza after testing him a bit.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

He says he could see how Freeza underestimated him, and when Gokuu overpowers him as a SSJ, then of course he's going to believe he killed Freeza.

No, he specifically said that base Goku could defeat Freeza after testing him a bit.

What was the specific Japanese dub quote?

[Kamiccolo9]

Everyone keeps saying that Coola was stronger than Freeza and says it's somehow proof that the transformation was completely different from 100% power state. In actuality, there's probably a minuscule difference, if any, between Coola's transformation and his 100% state. His full power is just that much more ahead of Freeza's.

Proof? If Cooler wasn't much stronger after he transformed, then why was he able to dominate Goku so easily when he had been equal to, or slightly weaker than him previously? And why wouldn't his transformation be stronger than his 100% state? Freeza's 2nd form was much stronger than 100% of his first form, and Super Saiyan Goku is much stronger than 100% of Goku in base. Transformation tend to bring about a huge increase in power.

Mastered Super Saiya-Jin is not stronger than regular Super Saiya-Jin, though. Just more efficient.

Cooler was not using 100% of his power in his 4th state; his body didn't resemble Freeza's 100% state until the middle of his transformation and after so we don't know how strong he actually was and we don't know the difference between his fifth and fourth forms.

Mastered Super Saiyan isn't a seperate form though. I see Freeza's final form as the equivalent of a Super Saiyan, while Cooler, who remains in the form, is closer to a mastered Super Saiyan.

On another note, the Daizenshuu places this movie during the 3 years they spent training for the Androids. We know that Goku, at this point, was stronger than Trunks,and according to Daizenshuu 2 Trunks is far stronger than Freeza and Goku were on Namek:

"He possesses tremendous battle power, cutting Freeza in half with a single slice, who had given Goku a difficult fight.";
"Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks."

So it would stand to reason that Goku in movie 5 is substantially stronger than he was on Namek. I personally have him at 4,500,000, with his SSJ form at 225,000,000, and Cooler's true form maxing out around 130,000,000, with his final form around 200,000,000. I have him suppressed to around 4,000,000 at the beginning of the fight, as Goku seems to have the upper hand here, and both would be higher than Freeza's initial 3,000,000.