Fat Boo and Super Boo Differences!

[MDSTSSJ]

I don't see why SK would have to be more powerful than Boo to be absorbed. He could very easily be on-par with Boo or weaker, but still strong enough to put out enough power and resistance to get Boo's attention, unlike the West and North Kaioshins. Or Boo absorbed him because SK wasn't going down fast enough. Kid Boo and SK Boo were mindless monsters, so his reasoning for absorbing wouldn't be on the same level as Super Boo.

I guess my point is SK doesn't need to be stronger than Kid Boo to be absorbed. If Dai Kaioshin's abilities could factor into him being absorbed (despite being weaker), there could definitely be other reasons as to why SK was absorbed without the entire emphasis being on SK's raw power being beyond Boo's.

I agree. I was just thinking that.

[Draken]

I don't see why SK would have to be more powerful than Boo to be absorbed. He could very easily be on-par with Boo or weaker, but still strong enough to put out enough power and resistance to get Boo's attention, unlike the West and North Kaioshins. Or Boo absorbed him because SK wasn't going down fast enough. Kid Boo and SK Boo were mindless monsters, so his reasoning for absorbing wouldn't be on the same level as Super Boo.

I guess my point is SK doesn't need to be stronger than Kid Boo to be absorbed. If Dai Kaioshin's abilities could factor into him being absorbed (despite being weaker), there could definitely be other reasons as to why SK was absorbed without the entire emphasis being on SK's raw power being beyond Boo's.

I don't see SK as being stronger but strong enough to put up a decent fight, maybe just below SSJ3 Goku, so yea I agree with your viewpoint.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Iv'e always been under the assumption that Kaioshin influence either divides or multiplies Buu's power based on the situation. It multiplies it when Buu's influence is greater than the Kaioshins and divides it when the Kaioshin influence is stronger. Since the Daikaioshin's influence is hindered by Good Buu, Pure Evil Buu's power multiplied when he absorbed Good Buu. I'd say Super Buu is much stronger than Fat Buu based on this.

[Tyro]

Unless I'm misreading your post, either way SK added power so...

I wanted to plant a flag here so this doesn't get overlooked. I was using your post for a springboard for that idea. Either way he'd power Boo up IMO.

But if S. Kaioshin wasn't stronger than Pure Boo, why would Boo absorb him? He was stated to be the strongest of the Kaioshin, and he didn't display any special abilities through Boo, and the Transfiguration Beam is most likely from Dai Kaioshin. Boo always had a reason to absorb someone:

He absorbed South Kaioshin for his power.
He absorbed Dai Kaioshin for his abilities.
He absorbed Good Boo to complete himself.
He absorbed Gotenks for his power & techniques.
He absorbed Piccolo for his brains.
He absorbed Gohan for his power.

I think it presents a valid possibility that could have occurred within Boo. If it was just the Southern Kaio-shin's influence on each body then it's logical to assume he would power up both if he powered up Pure Boo in the first place.

His power up from the Kaio-shin would have to be HUGE if Pure Boo (Southern Kaio-shin-absorbed) > Evil Boo. I think this is a noncontradictory way to present the same events.

[Draken]

Unless I'm misreading your post, either way SK added power so...

I wanted to plant a flag here so this doesn't get overlooked. I was using your post for a springboard for that idea. Either way he'd power Boo up IMO.

But if S. Kaioshin wasn't stronger than Pure Boo, why would Boo absorb him? He was stated to be the strongest of the Kaioshin, and he didn't display any special abilities through Boo, and the Transfiguration Beam is most likely from Dai Kaioshin. Boo always had a reason to absorb someone:

He absorbed South Kaioshin for his power.
He absorbed Dai Kaioshin for his abilities.
He absorbed Good Boo to complete himself.
He absorbed Gotenks for his power & techniques.
He absorbed Piccolo for his brains.
He absorbed Gohan for his power.

I think it presents a valid possibility that could have occurred within Boo. If it was just the Southern Kaio-shin's influence on each body then it's logical to assume he would power up both if he powered up Pure Boo in the first place.

His power up from the Kaio-shin would have to be HUGE if Pure Boo (Southern Kaio-shin-absorbed) > Evil Boo. I think this is a noncontradictory way to present the same events.

Oh alright sorry, just making sure we were on the same page here But yea I agree with your point to an extent, SK might not have been a huge wtfax powerup, but it's definitely something noticeable and is possible to stronger than Super (Evil) Buu since the good influence of Dai Kaioshin is removed from him entirely, thus freeing his power.

[Saiga]

@Tyro I very much like your theory. It makes sense.

[Tyro]

@Tyro I very much like your theory. It makes sense.

Thanks! It's not mine but I've been carrying it for years now and I never hear it mentioned nowadays.

I often wonder if Majin Boo's absorption technique works more like addition than multiplication if it involves anyone other than another Boo. For example:

SSj3 Gotenks: 10
Evil Boo: 10

Gohan: 15

Evil Boo (SSj3 Gotenks-absorbed): 20

If something like this is the case then the Southern Kaio-shin would have to be somewhere close to 10x Pure Boo's level. (If Pure Boo (Southern Kaio-shin-absorbed) > Evil Boo is true.) Of course I have no way to prove this other than saying that his absorptions seemed to act as an addition to instead of a fusion of people, at least on the short term (we never see Dai or Southern Kaio-shin again).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But there doesn't seem to be any other reason, since Boo didn't get any new ability, or even smarter. And if he was weaker, he would just die.

[Saiga]

But there doesn't seem to be any other reason, since Boo didn't get any new ability, or even smarter. And if he was weaker, he would just die.

The same thing can be said for the Dai Kaioshin.

[BejitaSama]

Thanks for your replies

How do you come to the conclusion that absorbing south Kaioshin decreased his power? It's heavily implied (actually stated) that the south Kaioshin absorption increased his power, as shown when he first transforms to buff Buu and everyone cries out that his ki is getting even bigger. Then, when he transforms again into kid Buu, Goku is relieved and says he can fight him now.

According to me, the south kaioshin absorption didn't increase the power of kid buu, but decreased it. In the french translation of the second edition of DB manga, Kaioshin said that previous Kaioshin absorptions make Buu lose power. It's logical if you compare it with some indications all along the Buu Saga, like the fact that Kaioshin energy is not compatible with Buu's one.

Kid Buu absorbed South Kaioshin, the most powerful : was he more powerful than Kid Buu or not, we don't care because the result is the same : Buu was facing to the weakest Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin. So, even if he was weaker (as my theory supposed it), it was easy for him to get rid of them.

I think that Kid Buu, because of his entire evil part (without Kaioshin absorptions) is his “Perfect Form”. I explain : Fat Buu (the Buu with Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin) divided into Evil Buu and Good Buu. Evil Buu is, according to me, the materialisation of Kid Buu's evil, his "essence", without any absorption that reduce his power. But, when he divided, he lost a part of the power that Good Buu still have. When he absorbed him, he could recover his missing part of Buu, and by taking control on the Good part, reduce the effect of Kaioshin absorption with the "special treamtment of Good Buu". But Kaioshin influence is still present, not a lot, but still there. So, Super Buu is a version of Buu that minimise the Kaioshin effect, and become "almost perfect".
And, when Bejita cut Good Buu's cocoon, all the influence of Kaioshin disapeared. With Good Buu missing, Buu can recover all of his power, without any Kaioshin influence. He transformed into Buff Buu because Dai Kaioshin influence disapeared at first (he's the last Kaioshin absorbeb), following by South Kaioshin influence and become Kid Buu.

I think that it make sense for all Buu's transformations.

Then, when he transforms again into kid Buu, Goku is relieved and says he can fight him now.

Goku and Bejita were refering to Kid Buu's size, just like Bejita did against Perfect Cell. It's never stated in the manga that Kid Buu is inferior to Buff Buu.
And for the South Kaioshin increasing of power, it's not very logical. Why just this Kaioshin could bring him power whereas Dai Kaioshin reduced it and young Kaioshin energy couldn't be used to awake Fat Buu ?

Can you explain to me how you see all Buu's transfomations ? What is Super Buu for you ?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But there doesn't seem to be any other reason, since Boo didn't get any new ability, or even smarter. And if he was weaker, he would just die.

The same thing can be said for the Dai Kaioshin.

Like I said, he took his abilities.

[Saiga]

Like I said, he took his abilities.

Only in anime filler.

[Bussani]

According to me, the south kaioshin absorption didn't increase the power of kid buu, but decreased it. In the french translation of the second edition of DB manga, Kaioshin said that previous Kaioshin absorptions make Buu lose power.

Due to the lack of plurals, it's not clear in the Japanese version whether they're talking about one absorption or both making him weaker. Some would say it's implied that only the Dai Kaioshin weakened him, but it's open to interpretation.

Goku and Bejita were refering to Kid Buu's size

It's true that Vegeta's comment referred to his size, like he's insulting the guy, but what about Goku's? He goes from saying Super Buu would kill them, to pointing out that Buu's getting stronger, to saying, "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something" after Buu shrank down. Why would he say "we did it" if all they did was make him smaller and stronger? It seems silly of him to celebrate over making him smaller if they made him more powerful at the same time.

I'm not trying to say that your interpretation isn't possible, but maybe you can see how others might see it differently?

And for the South Kaioshin increasing of power, it's not very logical. Why just this Kaioshin could bring him power whereas Dai Kaioshin reduced it

To me, the dialogue seems to imply that it was Dai Kaioshin's personality that weakened him. South Kaioshin was "strong and burly", while Dai Kaioshin was "kind and gentle"; given that his personality changes depending on who he absorbs, it makes sense to me that a kind and gentle person would weaken and mellow him out, whereas a strong and burly person would make him strong and burly.

Kaioshin: “Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “

I suppose it's possible that South Kaioshin also weakened him. There's nothing that makes it impossible, but at the same time, there's nothing that makes it factual either.

[BejitaSama]

It's true that Vegeta's comment referred to his size, like he's insulting the guy, but what about Goku's? He goes from saying Super Buu would kill them, to pointing out that Buu's getting stronger, to saying, "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something" after Buu shrank down. Why would he say "we did it" if all they did was make him smaller and stronger? It seems silly of him to celebrate over making him smaller if they made him more powerful at the same time.

I'm not trying to say that your interpretation isn't possible, but maybe you can see how others might see it differently?

That's true, but there's a lot of examples where heroes can't sense the real Ki of their ennemy. Bejita and C-16 thought that Perfect Cell weren't that different ; when Fat Buu appeared, everybody including Gohan thought they could handle him ; before Gohan fought Super Buu Gotenks, he wasn't so scared and never thought that he was so powerful etc.

Moreover, during the battle with Kid Buu, both Bejita and Goku stated that they underestimated Kid Buu. We can think that at his first appearence, Kid Buu was suppressed. That could explain why they celebrate this transformation : the Ki rose a lot when Super Buu passed to Buff Buu, and decreased when he transformed into Kid Buu because the transformation ended, he's calm now. And when Kid Buu came to howl, the faces of both Saiyans changed.
But I admit that both of us could be right

Due to the lack of plurals, it's not clear in the Japanese version whether they're talking about one absorption or both making him weaker. Some would say it's implied that only the Dai Kaioshin weakened him, but it's open to interpretation.

How is it translated in the english manga ? And i think i saw on this forum traduction made by someone who speaks Japenese...
But I agree, this is just interpretation

To me, the dialogue seems to imply that it was Dai Kaioshin's personality that weakened him. South Kaioshin was "strong and burly", while Dai Kaioshin was "kind and gentle"; given that his personality changes depending on who he absorbs, it makes sense to me that a kind and gentle person would weaken and mellow him out, whereas a strong and burly person would make him strong and burly.

I agree with a part of that ; the personnality of the absorbed Kaioshin influence Buu's one. But what do you do of the incompatibility between kaioshin energy and buu's energy ? And how can the Buff Buu be stronger than Super Buu if Super Buu uses the power of both kaioshin ? When he loses Good Buu, following your theory, his strength can't increase, even if he's transforming. It would be as if Cell increased his power after have lost C-18

Could you explain to me how you see Buu's transformation ? It could be interesting

PS : I hope my english is not too bad !

[Bussani]

That's true, but there's a lot of examples where heroes can't sense the real Ki of their ennemy. Bejita and C-16 thought that Perfect Cell weren't that different ; when Fat Buu appeared, everybody including Gohan thought they could handle him ; before Gohan fought Super Buu Gotenks, he wasn't so scared and never thought that he was so powerful etc.

That's true too. The reason I have trouble overlooking it is that they specifically noted his ki getting bigger not long before saying "we did it," so we can't really say that they didn't know.

Moreover, during the battle with Kid Buu, both Bejita and Goku stated that they underestimated Kid Buu. We can think that at his first appearence, Kid Buu was suppressed. That could explain why they celebrate this transformation : the Ki rose a lot when Super Buu passed to Buff Buu, and decreased when he transformed into Kid Buu because the transformation ended, he's calm now. And when Kid Buu came to howl, the faces of both Saiyans changed.

Yeah, it's definitely possible that Kid Buu was actually more powerful than they first realized, which puts his true strength a bit up in the air. We know that they both still thought Super Saiyan 3 Goku could handle him, at least--he just needed time to gather his ki. If someone thinks that Goku was telling the truth about not having a chance against Super Buu, that would still indicate that Kid Buu was an easier opponent. If Goku had been lying, on the other hand, then Kid Buu could be stronger.

How is it translated in the english manga ?

Pretty similar, except they say that the "souls" he ate tamed him. They went with a plural for some reason, even though the sentence before it only mentions Dai Kaioshin making Buu easier to control.

And i think i saw on this forum traduction made by someone who speaks Japenese...

Yeah, the quote I used above was from the Strength Checker, which is comprised of translations by Herms, who is very good at Japanese.

But what do you do of the incompatibility between kaioshin energy and buu's energy ?

They couldn't use Kaioshin or Kibito's energy to revive Buu, but that might not mean that he can't get stronger by absorbing them. Then again, it is an interesting idea that could well fit. I'd really like to know if Toriyama had anything like that in mind when he wrote it.

And how can the Buff Buu be stronger than Super Buu if Super Buu uses the power of both kaioshin ? When he loses Good Buu, following your theory, his strength can't increase, even if he's transforming. It would be as if Cell increased his power after have lost C-18

If we think about it, it's weird that Buu even became that Buff form if removing Fat Buu removed both Kaioshin from him. It's strange, but it seems logical to me that his power would match his form, even if the person who triggered the form isn't technically attached anymore. It's only for a moment, at least, so maybe it's like a temporary power surge.

I was wondering if it might be better to think of Buu's forms as transformations that are simply triggered by absorbing people, rather than of the absorbed people acting like batteries. That way, he wouldn't technically need them for his power to remain high, but he'd lose the form that grants him that power shortly after they're removed.

PS : I hope my english is not too bad !

Don't worry--it's good!

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Like I said, he took his abilities.

Only in anime filler.

Only Innocent/Good/Mr. Boo & Evil Boo were shown using the Transfiguration Beam (and Pure Evil Boo should also be able to use it as well), which was mainly used for food, and Dai Kaioshin is stated to like food in Daizenshuu 7 (like we can't tell). S. Kaioshin was described as the strongest & burliest of the Kaioshin, and he made Boo much stronger (which IMO means that S. Kaioshin's power rivaled that of Boo). So, the most likely explanation from what we gather is that Boo absorbed S. Kaioshin for his power, and Dai Kaioshin for his abilities. Toei seems to conclude in that as well, and I agree with them.

[Saiga]

Pure Boo uses the beam in the manga, against Goku. He just dodges it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Pure Boo uses the beam in the manga, against Goku. He just dodges it.

Pure Bo isn't listed as a user of the technique in D7, so it could be a similar technique with Piccolo's Antenna Beam.

[Tyro]

Transfiguration Beam
First Appearance: Chapter 464
Category: ability
People: Majin Buu (good), Majin Buu (evil)
Special Characteristics: A technique where he changes his opponent’s form by firing a special beam from the tail-like antenna on his head. Since he transforms his opponent into what he imagines in his mind, mostly he changes people into his beloved candy. He’s not limited to just transforming one person at a time, but can transform large numbers of people all at once, like when he turns everyone in a large city into candy all at the same time. Apart from this he uses it for various other things, such as turning the people of a town into clay to build his house with, or turning Chi Chi into an egg. (Daizenshuu 4, p.62)

^For the lazy.

I would agree that this would imply that the Transfiguration Beam is unique to Boos connected to Mr. Boo (and of course Innocent Boo). The article makes it sound very personal and linked to Innocent Boo in particular given the "changes people into his beloved candy." Given that the Special Attack Index doesn't have any other attacks listed for Pure Boo but he obviously uses one as pointed out by Saiga, I wonder if this is a mistake. Perhaps Pure Boo fires a similar version but since he doesn't crave candy it'll turn the enemy into whatever he's imagining? *shudders*

[Kaboom]

A few of the Daizenshuu also label li'l Pure Boo as "Majin Boo (Evil)." Particularly Volume 2's battles guide.

180 - Goku vs Majin Buu (Evil)
Vol. 42 / Chp. 510
Buu entered into the Kaioshin Realm. Perhaps because his Saiyan blood was stirring, Goku is fixated on challenging Buu to a one-on-one battle.