Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

If you want to accept that absurd number, go for it. It's still a Budokai 3 promotion. The Toei website doesn't even have these numbers on their site last time I checked. This leads me to believe they think they are wrong as well.

And what makes the number absurd? Just because it doesn't fit into your power level list doesn't make it invalid.

[TheMightyOzaru]

If you want to accept that absurd number, go for it. It's still a Budokai 3 promotion. The Toei website doesn't even have these numbers on their site last time I checked. This leads me to believe they think they are wrong as well.

And what makes the number absurd? Just because it doesn't fit into your power level list doesn't make it invalid.

That number implies he is likely stronger than #17 and #18. Not many people have them above 440 and 450 million. I also don't know anyone who actually thinks Cooler is at 470,000,000. It seems absurd to me regardless whether or not it fits into my list.

[Kamiccolo9]

If you want to accept that absurd number, go for it. It's still a Budokai 3 promotion. The Toei website doesn't even have these numbers on their site last time I checked. This leads me to believe they think they are wrong as well.

And what makes the number absurd? Just because it doesn't fit into your power level list doesn't make it invalid.

That number implies he is likely stronger than #17 and #18. Not many people have them above 440 and 450 million. I also don't know anyone who actually thinks Cooler is at 470,000,000. It seems absurd to me regardless whether or not it fits into my list.

So it's absurd because it disagrees with fan lists?

[TheMightyOzaru]

So it's absurd because it disagrees with fan lists?

If no one uses it, it means no one takes it seriously and thus is absurd.

[Kamiccolo9]

So it's absurd because it disagrees with fan lists?

If no one uses it, it means no one takes it seriously and thus is absurd.

Why should I care if no fans take it seriously? This is an official publication; why should fan opinions trump that?

[TheMightyOzaru]

So it's absurd because it disagrees with fan lists?

If no one uses it, it means no one takes it seriously and thus is absurd.

Why should I care if no fans take it seriously? This is an official publication; why should fan opinions trump that?

It's related to video games so it can be disregarded.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's related to video games so it can be disregarded.

Sure it can. But it doesn't have to be. You've been saying "it doesn't count" for a while now, and that's fine, for you. Doesn't really mean much for anyone else though. It's not like we have any given number in the manga or anime that contradict these, so what's wrong with accepting them?
This is from an older thread, but I think it applies pretty well.

To bring things a little back around again, too...

I certainly have no problem (and no-one else should have a problem!) with anyone who wants to put effort into dissecting battle powers and coming up with their own lists. That's a cool and fun thing the do -- to some degree, I'm on board with how Kaboom describes it as this kinda fun artsy puzzle thing.

If someone wants to draw the line for themselves as "only what's in the manga!", that's all on them. If someone else wants to draw the line as "official guidebooks are just as official as the manga!", that's all on them.

HOW DARE YOU make disparaging comments about someone for that personal decision. The insanity that I see places that's basically akin to skinning folks alive is almost unfathomable to me. I know "the big question" from the original post in the thread is what the credibility is for the guide books, but isn't that well established? Furthermore... does it even need to be...? That's my question and concern. If you want to accept them, go for it. If not, go for it.

You're not in legal and artistic charge of the series. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings about it and whatever supplemental information comes out, but if the rights holders want to say one thing and certain fans want to take it at face-value... well, that's their prerogative! More power to them.

You're free to challenge that information based on your own observations, and other folks are free to accept it without being harshly judged for it. No need to take it to religious levels of persecution.

Save that for the Masako Nozawa discussions. The ones where I'm always right.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's related to video games so it can be disregarded.

Sure it can. But it doesn't have to be. You've been saying "it doesn't count" for a while now, and that's fine, for you. Doesn't really mean much for anyone else though. It's not like we have any given number in the manga or anime that contradict these, so what's wrong with accepting them?

If people don't use it, it leads to me to believe people also don't think it counts. People would also tend to think it's much higher than it should be since very few people have #17 and #18 above 440 and 450 million. It is thus absurd to me.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's related to video games so it can be disregarded.

Sure it can. But it doesn't have to be. You've been saying "it doesn't count" for a while now, and that's fine, for you. Doesn't really mean much for anyone else though. It's not like we have any given number in the manga or anime that contradict these, so what's wrong with accepting them?

If people don't use it, it leads to me to believe people also don't think it counts. People would also tend to think it's much higher than it should be since very few people have #17 and #18 above 440 and 450 million. It is thus absurd to me.

What if everyone ignored the Daizenshuu numbers? Would you count those then? Acceptance from the fanbase doesn't make something count or not. I've seen numerous people say that GT isn't canon, yet the Daizenshuu has it as part of the timeline. Should I disagree with the Daizenshuu just because most of the fans do?

[TheMightyOzaru]

If everyone ignored the Daizenshuu there would have to be something wrong with it. Problem is there aren't anything wrong with the Daizenshuu so that's not really a good example. Almost everyone ignores this V-Jump scan for a reason. People don't use the term canon correctly anyway. They don't think it's part of the continuity and in a way they are right. It's a separate timeline altogether.

[Kamiccolo9]

If everyone ignored the Daizenshuu there would have to be something wrong with it. Problem is there aren't anything wrong with the Daizenshuu so that's not really a good example. Almost everyone ignores this V-Jump scan for a reason. People don't use the term canon correctly anyway. They don't think it's part of the continuity and in a way they are right. It's a separate timeline altogether.

Not according to the Daizenshuu and Chozenshuu. It lumps the anime, movies 1 and 5, the 2008 special, BOG, and Gt into one timeline. And don't official publications trump fan opinions unless they contradict the source material?
As for the Budokai 3 power levels, if you can show me, in the game, that they are used, then I'll accept that they are intended for that and not the movies. But if they are not in the game, then why bother throwing them into the magazine at all if they don't mean anything?

[TheMightyOzaru]

If everyone ignored the Daizenshuu there would have to be something wrong with it. Problem is there aren't anything wrong with the Daizenshuu so that's not really a good example. Almost everyone ignores this V-Jump scan for a reason. People don't use the term canon correctly anyway. They don't think it's part of the continuity and in a way they are right. It's a separate timeline altogether.

Not according to the Daizenshuu and Chozenshuu. It lumps the anime, movies 1 and 5, the 2008 special, BOG, and Gt into one timeline. And don't official publications trump fan opinions unless they contradict the source material?
As for the Budokai 3 power levels, if you can show me, in the game, that they are used, then I'll accept that they are intended for that and not the movies. But if they are not in the game, then why bother throwing them into the magazine at all if they don't mean anything?

That's Shueisha's personal timeline and it contradicts many things. Why don't they try to make SSJ God in GT? Why can't Goku go SSJ of his own will in Movie 5? Why is everyone lollygagging when they should be training for the androids in Movie 5? Why does Gohan have a tail in Movie 5? Why does Krillin freak out when he realizes Gohan is Goku's son when he clearly met him in Movie 1? Need I go on? Why do I need a list from the games when this list is clearly amde to promote the games? They wouldn't need a list to promote the games if those numbers were already in there now would they?

[Kamiccolo9]

If everyone ignored the Daizenshuu there would have to be something wrong with it. Problem is there aren't anything wrong with the Daizenshuu so that's not really a good example. Almost everyone ignores this V-Jump scan for a reason. People don't use the term canon correctly anyway. They don't think it's part of the continuity and in a way they are right. It's a separate timeline altogether.

Not according to the Daizenshuu and Chozenshuu. It lumps the anime, movies 1 and 5, the 2008 special, BOG, and Gt into one timeline. And don't official publications trump fan opinions unless they contradict the source material?
As for the Budokai 3 power levels, if you can show me, in the game, that they are used, then I'll accept that they are intended for that and not the movies. But if they are not in the game, then why bother throwing them into the magazine at all if they don't mean anything?

That's Shueisha's personal timeline and it contradicts many things. Why don't they try to make SSJ God in GT? Why can't Goku go SSJ of his own will in Movie 5? Why is everyone lollygagging when they should be training for the androids in Movie 5? Why does Krillin freak out when he realizes Gohan is Goku's son when he clearly met him in Movie 1? Need I go on? Why do I need a list from the games when this list is clearly amde to promote the games? They wouldn't need a list to promote the games if those numbers were already in there now would they?

There are numerous ways to explain all of those. Regardless, it's an official publication.
Why give numbers for a game that doesn't have them? Why does them being used for video game promotion make them not count?

And I felt that this was such a good quote that I'm gonna use it again.

You're not in legal and artistic charge of the series. You're entitled to your own opinions and feelings about it and whatever supplemental information comes out, but if the rights holders want to say one thing and certain fans want to take it at face-value... well, that's their prerogative! More power to them.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh really? Explain to me why Krillin recognizes Gohan in Movie 1 yet is surprised to find out he exists in the Saiyan Saga. Explain to me why SSJ God is never brought up in GT. Explain to me why Gohan has a tail in Movie 5. Explain to me why Goku can't go SSJ of his own will in Movie 5. Explain to me why Movie 9 isn't in this guys timeline. It's one of the few movies that would fit into the timeline without contradicting anything. This guy clearly doesn't think too hard.

Why give numbers to a game that doesn't have them?

It's a promotion, that's why.

Why does them being used for video game promotion make them not count?

Video games use different BP numbers for characters, that's why.

[Kamiccolo9]

Oh really? Explain to me why Krillin recognizes Gohan in Movie 1 yet is surprised to find out he exists in the Saiyan Saga. Explain to me why SSJ God is never brought up in GT. Explain to me why Gohan has a tail in Movie 5. Explain to me why Goku can't go SSJ of his own will in Movie 5. Explain to me why Movie 9 isn't in this guys timeline. It's one of the few movies that would fit into the timeline without contradicting anything. This guy clearly doesn't think too hard.

Why give numbers to a game that doesn't have them?

It's a promotion, that's why.

Why does them being used for video game promotion make them not count?

Video games use different BP numbers for characters, that's why.

He forgot. Pretty lame answer, but it works. Maybe he hit his head or something.
Out of Universe-Because it wasn't mentioned yet. In universe, when would they have had a chance to use it? Do you think Baby or Omega Shenron would stand there and watch as they stood around holding hands? I doubt it.
Because it grew back. Goku's grew back all the time, and he was older than Gohan.
When Trunks asked if he could become Super Saiyan at will, Goku said he could "most of the time." This was one of the tomes he couldn't.
Who cares? They didn't add it. And Shueisha is a company, not a guy.
This game doesn't use battle powers. Why add them for a game that doesn't use them?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Oh really? Explain to me why Krillin recognizes Gohan in Movie 1 yet is surprised to find out he exists in the Saiyan Saga. Explain to me why SSJ God is never brought up in GT. Explain to me why Gohan has a tail in Movie 5. Explain to me why Goku can't go SSJ of his own will in Movie 5. Explain to me why Movie 9 isn't in this guys timeline. It's one of the few movies that would fit into the timeline without contradicting anything. This guy clearly doesn't think too hard.

Why give numbers to a game that doesn't have them?

It's a promotion, that's why.

Why does them being used for video game promotion make them not count?

Video games use different BP numbers for characters, that's why.

He forgot. Pretty lame answer, but it works. Maybe he hit his head or something.
Out of Universe-Because it wasn't mentioned yet. In universe, when would they have had a chance to use it? Do you think Baby or Omega Shenron would stand there and watch as they stood around holding hands? I doubt it.
Because it grew back. Goku's grew back all the time, and he was older than Gohan.
When Trunks asked if he could become Super Saiyan at will, Goku said he could "most of the time." This was one of the tomes he couldn't.
Who cares? They didn't add it. And Shueisha is a company, not a guy.
This game doesn't use battle powers. Why add them for a game that doesn't use them?

1.) Why would he forget? There is absolutely nothing backing that up so that doesn't work. It's pretty clear that Shueisha didn't think things through.
2.) Out of Universe holds no sway here. If it's supposed to be in the same continuity it would be a viable option. Regardless of whether it worked or not, they would still know of it and still suggest it. Not a valid excuse.
3.) It stopped growing back after the Saiyan arc. Vegeta's didn't grow back at all.
4.) Goku never says that.
They decided to promote this game with BPs because they figured it would sell the game. People like BPs.

[Kamiccolo9]

1.) Why would he forget? There is absolutely nothing backing that up so that doesn't work. It's pretty clear that Shueisha didn't think things through.
2.) Out of Universe holds no sway here. If it's supposed to be in the same continuity it would be a viable option. Regardless of whether it worked or not, they would still know of it and still suggest it. Not a valid excuse.
3.) It stopped growing back after the Saiyan arc. Vegeta's didn't grow back at all.
4.) Goku never says that.
They decided to promote this game with BPs because they figured it would sell the game. People like BPs.

1. Who cares why? That's a possible answer, and it works, so there.
2. Or they may have figured "why waste time bringing it up when there is no way it can work?"
3. Nothing ever says that it was removed permanently. Nothing ever says that it couldn't grow back. Goku's grew back plenty of times.
4. He says it right before he turns SSJ in front of Trunks.
And how does that make them invalid? You don't seem to be able to answer that. And again, who are you to decide what counts or not?

[TheMightyOzaru]

1.) Why would he forget? There is absolutely nothing backing that up so that doesn't work. It's pretty clear that Shueisha didn't think things through.
2.) Out of Universe holds no sway here. If it's supposed to be in the same continuity it would be a viable option. Regardless of whether it worked or not, they would still know of it and still suggest it. Not a valid excuse.
3.) It stopped growing back after the Saiyan arc. Vegeta's didn't grow back at all.
4.) Goku never says that.
They decided to promote this game with BPs because they figured it would sell the game. People like BPs.

1. Who cares why? That's a possible answer, and it works, so there.
2. Or they may have figured "why waste time bringing it up when there is no way it can work?"
3. Nothing ever says that it was removed permanently. Nothing ever says that it couldn't grow back. Goku's grew back plenty of times.
4. He says it right before he turns SSJ in front of Trunks.
And how does that make them invalid? You don't seem to be able to answer that. And again, who are you to decide what counts or not?

1.) I care why, it's inconsistent bull shit that the creator of said timeline didn't think about.
2.) Or it could have worked because they managed to hold Omega Shenron down while they charged energy into Goku. If Goten can suggest Gotenks, he sure as hell can suggest SSJ God. Inconsistent.
3.) Vegeta's never does and Gohan's never does. Goku's grows back in intervals less than a year. Why would it suddenly grow back more than a year later?
4.) No he says something along the lines at first I couldn't control it but now I can.
Video Game power levels themselves are invalid, have you seen them? I decide what counts in this situation because previous information backs it up.

[Draken]

To be fair, the Saiyans had plenty of chances to loan Goku their power in GT lol.

[Kamiccolo9]

1.) Why would he forget? There is absolutely nothing backing that up so that doesn't work. It's pretty clear that Shueisha didn't think things through.
2.) Out of Universe holds no sway here. If it's supposed to be in the same continuity it would be a viable option. Regardless of whether it worked or not, they would still know of it and still suggest it. Not a valid excuse.
3.) It stopped growing back after the Saiyan arc. Vegeta's didn't grow back at all.
4.) Goku never says that.
They decided to promote this game with BPs because they figured it would sell the game. People like BPs.

1. Who cares why? That's a possible answer, and it works, so there.
2. Or they may have figured "why waste time bringing it up when there is no way it can work?"
3. Nothing ever says that it was removed permanently. Nothing ever says that it couldn't grow back. Goku's grew back plenty of times.
4. He says it right before he turns SSJ in front of Trunks.
And how does that make them invalid? You don't seem to be able to answer that. And again, who are you to decide what counts or not?

1.) I care why, it's inconsistent bull shit that the creator of said timeline didn't think about.
2.) Or it could have worked because they managed to hold Omega Shenron down while they charged energy into Goku. If Goten can suggest Gotenks, he sure as hell can suggest SSJ God. Inconsistent.
3.) Vegeta's never does and Gohan's never does. Goku's grows back in intervals less than a year. Why would it suddenly grow back more than a year later?
4.) No he says something along the lines at first I couldn't control it but now I can.
Video Game power levels themselves are invalid, have you seen them? I decide what counts in this situation because previous information backs it up.

1. So what? The official timeline has the movie and anime together, so something happened to make Krillin forget. Doesn't really matter what.
2. How would they hold Omega down and hold hands around Goku at the same time?
3. Gohan's grew back once in the anime. And the movie is based off the anime. Gohan's younger than Goku was; maybe that's why? I dunno. The fact is that it does grow back.
4. And maybe he was wrong? Maybe something happened. Maybe Goku felt like not taking a chance at aggravating the heart virus Trunks told him he would have. Maybe he didn't feel like using SSJ. Maybe he was too injured to use it at will.
These aren't used in the video game. And video game levels aren't invalid just because they are in a video game; they have to contradict the series. And these don't, since there are no other official numbers that far into the series for it to contradict, only fanmade ones, which have no bearing on whether or not "they count." One of the numbers you gave above had Oozaru Vegeta at 180,000. Is it wrong just because it's in a video game?
You are not in charge of the series. You have no authority to say what is "right" or "correct" here. You're welcome to your own opinion, but don't force it down on everyone else. Your opinion is no more valid than mine, or any other fans.

To be fair, the Saiyans had plenty of chances to loan Goku their power in GT lol.

I can't remember any time when 6 Saiyans had a chance to stand around Goku holding hands for the ritual. At least without risking Baby of Omega simply blowing them all up at once.