The one level theory on Gogeta and Vegito

[Saiga]

Though the manga implies that Trunks still isn't as strong as Gohan, since Vegeta was trying to make Trunks stronger than Gohan.

[miguelnuva1]

The daiz says Goten's potential= Gohan's potential.

Nope, it's talking specifically about their battle power.

We see in the manga Gohan barely blocking Goten's hits, which makes me reach the conclusion that they are equals in ki power, but Gohan is stronger in muscle power than both Goten & Trunks, due to his grown up body & his training. And also, Gohan is way more skilled than the kids. Which in the end makes him stronger than them (without counting SS2 & Rage Boost).

And BTW, the manga also hints that Goten & Trunks are Super Saiyan Full Power, which explains why they are so strong.

No it says potential wise. and yes I know Goten and Trunks are FP SSJs.

[FNF]

Though the manga implies that Trunks still isn't as strong as Gohan, since Vegeta was trying to make Trunks stronger than Gohan.

Why does everyone forget that Gohan still has Super Saiyan 2 in these debates? Trunks and Goten can be roughly FPSSJ Gohan level yet still be weaker.

The manga seems to clearly suggest that Goten and Trunks are around FPSSJ Gohan's level but of course, it doesn't mean they are stronger or close to Gohan's actual power. So yeah, it still makes sense that Vegeta is still trying to make Trunks stronger than Gohan.

No it says potential wise. and yes I know Goten and Trunks are FP SSJs.

No, it really doesn't...

[Saiga]

I don't forget that Gohan has SS2. However, it doesn't seem like Vegeta is comparing Trunks to that and is just speaking generally. So I just compare them generally.

If Goten is the same strength as Gohan, Trunks is already stronger than Gohan. Gohan can make himself stronger with SS2, but that doesn't change that Trunks is stronger than him.

[FNF]

I don't forget that Gohan has SS2. However, it doesn't seem like Vegeta is comparing Trunks to that and is just speaking generally. So I just compare them generally.

If Goten is the same strength as Gohan, Trunks is already stronger than Gohan. Gohan can make himself stronger with SS2, but that doesn't change that Trunks is stronger than him.

You see, I just can't see how that makes any sense whatsoever. That in itself is a contradiction.

'Stronger' IS stronger. If Goku admits Evil Boo is stronger than himself, it doesn't mean Boo's stronger than one of his lower forms. It means he is stronger end of.
Now if Vegeta said something specific about SSJ forms then there is a case there but otherwise you simply have to assume it takes into account all forms.

[RandomGuy96]

Well to be fair Janemba completely dominated and once Gogeta appeared he was shown to power up.

Funny cause I never knew you believed that Goten is actually equal to Gohan

Also no evidence against is not the same as evidence for. It was never contradicted but it was never backed up either.

That's not something he needs to be Super Buu level to do. Depending on who you ask base Gotenks could do that.

I'm mulling it over, but the Daiz is pretty clear about it.

Buuhan/Buutenks is the most qualified person around for making such a judgement, and the Daiz backs him up, so I yeah, Gogeta < Buuhan has a lot of evidence going for it.

The daiz says Goten's potential= Gohan's potential.

Also I hate talking about a manga Gogeta that doesn't exist when the Anime one is right there.

No, it goes out of it's way to mention battle power: "By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten possesses a battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan". Goten's battle power = Gohan's battle power.

The anime one is non-canon and made up of two haxxed versions of manga characters (anime Goku is stronger than Super Buu). Therefore, he's completely irrelevant here.

No it says potential wise. and yes I know Goten and Trunks are FP SSJs.

No, it doesn't.

Though the manga implies that Trunks still isn't as strong as Gohan, since Vegeta was trying to make Trunks stronger than Gohan.

Gohan still has SS2. And hasn't Vegeta not seen how Gohan slacked off when he says this?

You see, I just can't see how that makes any sense whatsoever. That in itself is a contradiction.

'Stronger' IS stronger. If Goku admits Evil Boo is stronger than himself, it doesn't mean Boo's stronger than one of his lower forms. It means he is stronger end of.
Now if Vegeta said something specific about SSJ forms then there is a case there but otherwise you simply have to assume it takes into account all forms.

Also, this.

SS3 Gotenks < (small gap) Manga SS3 Gogeta =< Buutenks < Buuhan is stated and/or heavily implied in the manga and the guidebooks, and really the only information we ever get on him. He's vastly, VASTLY overrated. Buuhan would kick his ass. Heck, as far as we know, there can be next to no gap at all between SS3 Gotenks and SS3 Gogeta; that comment about Goten is obviously talking about Gohan before the Fusion Saga, and the Daiz goes on to state that Goten and Trunks powered up a lot in the ROSAT...

[miguelnuva1]

The anime one is non-canon and made up of two haxxed versions of manga characters (anime Goku is stronger than Super Buu). Therefore, he's completely irrelevant here.

There is no Manga Gogeta though. Gogeta was created by Toei and speaking of a manga Gogeta would be like talking about a mangs Broly, Gogeta's one showing was in a movie and Anime Goku at least in the dub hints that he is around SSJ3 Gotenks when also SSJ3.

Goku on his own is able to stall Buutenks, less then Gohan can but still able to, using the rules of Potara> Dance and Vegito having a rival boost we still however know to other use Anime Vegito when comparing him to Gogeta or to simply assume that Vegito> Gogeta based on Potara> Dance.

Based on Toei creating Gogeta and how they power up Goku and since movie villians mirror Manga Villians SUper Janemba in my book should be around Super Buu and Gogeta one shotted him but Potara> Dance means Vegito is stronger.

[dbzfan7]

Depending how you treat the fusion dance multiplier (or if you follow the idea it is) and the difference between the boys and their dads. I can't see Gogeta even close to Vegetto or Boohan.

[RandomGuy96]

There is no Manga Gogeta though. Gogeta was created by Toei and speaking of a manga Gogeta would be like talking about a mangs Broly, Gogeta's one showing was in a movie and Anime Goku at least in the dub hints that he is around SSJ3 Gotenks when also SSJ3.

Sigh.

Okay, let me make this clear: CANON Gogeta is a HYPOTHETICAL Gogeta that would be produced as a result of Goku doing the fusion dance. He is weaker than Buuhan.

NON-CANON GOGETA is an ACTUAL guy we saw in Movie 12 and GT. He's much more powerful than a HYPOTHETICAL manga Gogeta because anime Goku is stronger than Super Buu.

Goku on his own is able to stall Buutenks, less then Gohan can but still able to, using the rules of Potara> Dance and Vegito having a rival boost we still however know to other use Anime Vegito when comparing him to Gogeta or to simply assume that Vegito> Gogeta based on Potara> Dance.

While the anime does have Goku stronger than Super Buu (based on all of the comments about Kid Buu and Goku talking down to Buuccolo), he gets stomped back to base by Buutenks. I don't know what he has to do with anything here.

Based on Toei creating Gogeta and how they power up Goku and since movie villians mirror Manga Villians SUper Janemba in my book should be around Super Buu and Gogeta one shotted him but Potara> Dance means Vegito is stronger.

If he were around Super Buu, Toei haxxed Goku should have been enough to beat him. But according to Toei's website he's stronger than Hirudegarn, and so probably closer to Buuhan than Super Buu.

But that's only Toei-haxxed Goku. Hypothetical manga Gogeta is weaker than Buuhan- you can argue that Anime Gogeta is still weaker than Buuhan, but stronger than the nerfed versions of Buu in the anime.

Depending how you treat the fusion dance multiplier (or if you follow the idea it is) and the difference between the boys and their dads. I can't see Gogeta even close to Vegetto or Boohan.

That's what suggested by the guidebooks and stated by Buuhan himself. And again, Buuhan should be very qualified to make this judgement.

[dbzfan7]

That's what suggested by the guidebooks and stated by Buuhan himself. And again, Buuhan should be very qualified to make this judgement.

I would think so as he has Piccolo's brains, Gohan's brains, and had a fusion characters power. He should have a complete grasp of fusion. Though he had no idea that the potara was so much different.

[RandomGuy96]

It's so different that an expert on potara said that base Gokhan would be enough to beat Buutenks, while an expert on dance fusion implied that even SS3 Gokan (who should have the same strength as SS3 Gogeta) probably can't beat Buutenks. Buuhan is a lot stronger and smarter than people give him credit for.

[Kaboom]

The problem is that the mechanics of Fusion are all just big guesses and vague implications, and there's a world of potential factors that could make big differences between Fusions of different people. There's no solid, determinate, universally-applicable facts to it that we can just easily use to predict how powerful so-and-so would be compared to such-and-such.

Frankly, there's nothing that can prove Super Saiyan Gogeta couldn't do anything that Super Saiyan Vegetto can, and nothing that can prove to the contrary, either.

[RandomGuy96]

Except we see characters (i.e. Goku, Piccolo, Old Kai) accurately predict the results of fusions all the time, and so obviously there's some formula or coherent scale. Saying that Gogeta would be way different in the way he fuses than Gotenks for no reason is just silly. Buuhan/Buutenks should be more qualified than Piccolo or Goku to make this judgement, and not only is he never contradicted, the Daizenshuu heavily implies that he's right.

[dbzfan7]

It's so different that an expert on potara said that base Gokhan would be enough to beat Buutenks, while an expert on dance fusion implied that even SS3 Gokan (who should have the same strength as SS3 Gogeta) probably can't beat Buutenks. Buuhan is a lot stronger and smarter than people give him credit for.

I don't think a Gokan dance fusion is possible as Gohan and Goku are too far apart in power.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan would just suppress himself.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Gohan would just suppress himself.

I do believe it has be noted somewhere on this board that it's implied that if the fusees are too far apart in maximum power, the fusion won't work even if one of them suppresses their power to the other's level.

[dbzfan7]

Gohan would just suppress himself.

Don't you have to be close in power to even attempt fusion before adjustments in power. Gohan would have to greatly low his power to match Goku. Trunks was already close to Goten in power before adjustments. Though i'm not sure if its a prerequisite as long as your close in height and are of similar race.

[Kaboom]

Except we see characters (i.e. Goku, Piccolo, Old Kai) accurately predict the results of fusions all the time, and so obviously there's some formula or coherent scale.

That's the thing, though. Those predictions can't truly be cited as "accurate" unless they're actually proven. If Goku said, "Fusion will be plenty" and then Super Saiyan Gotenks actually BEAT Majin Boo, we'd have something concrete. But it never happened. We never even got a true "yes, this power I'm sensing from you should be more than enough" statement about him.

Same with Gohan-Boo later. He claims that a Fusion, a.k.a. a hypothetical Gogeta, won't be able to beat him. But he's already clearly convinced he's practically omnipotent, and even all the while Vegetto is kicking him around, he refuses to admit that he's been surpassed. So why should we take his prediction about hypothetical Gogeta as 100% fact?

It's all kept vague, so to a certain degree, things are up in the air for the individual to decide for themselves.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Though the manga implies that Trunks still isn't as strong as Gohan, since Vegeta was trying to make Trunks stronger than Gohan.

Why does everyone forget that Gohan still has Super Saiyan 2 in these debates? Trunks and Goten can be roughly FPSSJ Gohan level yet still be weaker.

And Vegeta didn't even know that Trunks could use Super Saiyan at that point.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No it says potential wise.

No, it doesn't. It is talking about their battle power.

Frankly, there's nothing that can prove Super Saiyan Gogeta couldn't do anything that Super Saiyan Vegetto can, and nothing that can prove to the contrary, either.

Actually, we do know that the Potara give a greater boost in power compared to Fusion.