How strong was Dabura?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You can't use that example to contradict the Super Saiyan 2 traits. Goku used a burst of his Super Saiyan 2 power and immediately reverted back to Super Saiyan. He didn't even fully transform into it.

[TheGmGoken]

If that's then fight with Yakon? If so then it was just a burst SSJ2. He was barely power up. It was a spark of light to show off. Plus that was ONE panel. Yet when Goku and Vegeta was SSJ2 we seen sparks but when it goes back to Gohan he has no sparks. Coincidence? You think Mr.AT is playing favorites with the sparks? You think he forget after drawing 1 page with 2 character beings in sparks. Mr.AT doesn't have the best memory but damn. I'm sure he's not short-bus

[Fionordequester]

I've said it before: it's that easy. The plot can and does make sense either way, but this is the clear tiebreaker, solving any and all confusion in one solid blow. Everything else is pointless minutiae and doesn't even come close to outweighing it. I have no doubt about this whatsoever in my mind.

Could you please respond to my previous explanation for that? That the lack of lightning may have been a visual cue to point out that "hey, Gohan may be SSJ2, but BOY he sure isn't anywhere near Goku and Vegeta!"? You're artwork example doesn't mean much of anything when I can so easily explain it away, hence, you haven't proven a darn thing.

Plus, in regards to Gohan's aura, as I've already established, Gohan's hair in his fight with Dabura looks very similar to his hair as an SSJ2 (i.e., lots of rows of spiky hair rather than just a single row of gigantic ones), I'm not seeing any practical difference in his aura (most of the auras for each character seem to differ in sharpness from panel to panel), and there is NO PROOF that sparks are a requirement for SSJ2. YOU CAN'T USE THAT AS PROOF! In fact...

If that's then fight with Yakon? If so then it was just a burst SSJ2. He was barely powered up.

So is that you proposing a theory that the missing sparks were due to Goku not being strong enough at that instant? Because that's MY theory for why Gohan was SSJ2, yet didn't have the sparks! Gohan WAS at SSJ2, but he was having a lot of trouble drawing out all of the power that an SSJ2 should be able to have, and as a result, was stuck at only the level of power Goku showed there, hence, no lightning.

So if you want me to actually believe Gohan was a SSJ2, what I want you to focus on is giving me PLOT explanations for how it makes sense for him to be an SSJ2, preferably ones that don't rely on "he was too stressed", because I really don't think Akira is a subtle enough writer that he would just leave that to us to figure out (just look at a few of the examples I've posted!).

[RandomGuy96]

I would have thought that the tie breaker would be when the Daizenshu outright said, clear as day, "Guys, seriously, he was a Super Saiyan 2".

Also, the Yakon example pretty much disproves the "every SS2 must have sparks" theory.

[Fionordequester]

I would have thought that the tie breaker would be when the Daizenshu outright said, clear as day, "Guys, seriously, he was a Super Saiyan 2".

Especially when said guidebook was approved by Mr. Toriyama himself. Does this mean that, were we to ask Mr. Toriyama today, that his opinion wouldn't be valid no matter what?

[Kaboom]

Could you please respond to my previous explanation for that? That the lack of lightning may have been a visual cue to point out that "hey, Gohan may be SSJ2, but BOY he sure isn't anywhere near Goku and Vegeta!"?

Because if that were the case, he wouldn't have had the lighting back at the Tournament, either. Vegeta commented on his decreased power there, as well.

Come on, this is obvious! Toriyama actually drew a picture of a character showing off and labeling each form. Why is it difficult? It's like having someone point to an apple and a banana, say "this is an apple, and this is a banana," and then not being able to differentiate between them.

This is almost insulting to my intelligence at this point. I thought members of this forum would be smarter than this.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Especially when said guidebook was approved by Mr. Toriyama himself. Does this mean that, were we to ask Mr. Toriyama today, that his opinion wouldn't be valid no matter what?

The Daizenshuu have many small errors like that. Not that this make them less reliable, but they are not perfect.

[Zephyr]

I would have thought that the tie breaker would be when the Daizenshu outright said, clear as day, "Guys, seriously, he was a Super Saiyan 2".

Wouldn't the tie breaker be that Buu didn't receive much energy from Gohan and Dabura's battle, but was fully powered by Goku and Vegeta's? For Gohan to be SSj2, he and Dabura would need to be SSj2 tier, and would logically have filled Buu up.

I apologize if this was already debunked in my absence. 3 pages of discussion filled with walls of text have been added since last time I was in the thread, and I don't really have time to read through all of it.

And yes, the Daizenshuu are not infallible. See: Tenshinhan vs Android 19.

[TheGmGoken]

I would have thought that the tie breaker would be when the Daizenshu outright said, clear as day, "Guys, seriously, he was a Super Saiyan 2".

Especially when said guidebook was approved by Mr. Toriyama himself. Does this mean that, were we to ask Mr. Toriyama today, that his opinion wouldn't be valid no matter what?

THe guidebook also say Tien vs 19

[Fionordequester]

Because if that were the case, he wouldn't have had the lighting back at the Tournament, either. Vegeta commented on his decreased power there, as well.

Actually, one thing I would like to note is that, several times as I read through the various Buu Saga fights, the sparks would often disappear whenever the character would perform any sort of powerful energy attack, such as a Kamehameha. And Gohan spent a large chunk of time performing a Kamehameha immediately after going into whatever state he went into. After that, it's probable that the Kamehameha drained him enough that his power dropped back below what's needed for sparks.

Come on, this is obvious! Toriyama actually drew a picture of a character showing off and labeling each form. Why is it difficult? It's like having someone point to an apple and a banana, say "this is an apple, and this is a banana," and then not being able to differentiate between them. This is almost insulting to my intelligence at this point.

Because you're asking me to take an artistic cue, that was never stated to be part of SSJ2, over a guidebook, approved by Mr. Toriyama himself, stating that Gohan WAS SSJ2 against Dabura AS WELL AS almost every implication from the dialogue itself. I realize you have your strongly held opinions, and know a fair degree about this series, but is it really so hard to see why our argument might be valid as well? Remember, I actually gave up before RandomGuy came in with his fresh batch of material for me to use, so could you please make an effort to look at things through the shoes of someone who doesn't put as much stock in artistic cues as you?

Wouldn't the tie breaker be that Buu didn't receive much energy from Gohan and Dabura's battle, but was fully powered by Goku and Vegeta's? For Gohan to be SSj2, he and Dabura would need to be SSj2 tier, and would logically have filled Buu up.

Dabura wasn't able to do a whole lot to his opponent. Majin Vegeta was.

THe guidebook also say Tenshinhan vs 19

As opposed to #17? It's a typo I think would be easier to make than SSJ compared to SSJ2.

[RandomGuy96]

Wouldn't the tie breaker be that Buu didn't receive much energy from Gohan and Dabura's battle, but was fully powered by Goku and Vegeta's? For Gohan to be SSj2, he and Dabura would need to be SSj2 tier, and would logically have filled Buu up. I apologize if this was already debunked in my absence. 3 pages of discussion filled with walls of text have been added since last time I was in the thread, and I don't really have time to read through all of it.

I pointed out how neither fighter damaged the other at all, in contrast to the Goku vs Vegeta fight, where both were heavily injured. Also, Dabura and Gohan are still much weaker than Goku and Majin Vegeta, and their fight was extremely short.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Daizenshuu 2 also implies that Gohan never used Super Saiyan 2 after the Budokai.

[Fionordequester]

Daizenshuu 2 also implies that Gohan never used Super Saiyan 2 after the Budokai.

I supposed that might have been rectonned by number 7 then.

[RandomGuy96]

Daizenshuu 2 also implies that Gohan never used Super Saiyan 2 after the Budokai.

It never flat out stated it. It just didn't put in a vage inconsistent implication that wasn't there for other forms that obviously appeared more than once.

The only official statement we have says he was a SS2. There. No confusion, no subjective visual comparisons, the official stance is just, simply, he was a Super Saiyan 2.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Goku and Vegeta were virtually equal, yet were able to put out enough power to respectively increase Boo's energy.

Gohan and Dabra were virtually equal, yet were unable to put out enough power to respectively increase Boo's energy. Dabra's so powerful, yet he can barely damage a weaker Gohan enough to gain energy. Sounds like a Super Saiyan level opponent.

Vegeta is convinced that any of them can handle Dabra as long as they watch for his stone spit, and Vegeta has no idea Goku is even beyond Super Saiyan at this point. Goku agrees with him and also has no idea that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan. To me, this implies he was fully confident in their Super Saiyan level being enough to handle Dabra.

[Fionordequester]

Goku and Vegeta were virtually equal, yet were able to put out enough power to respectively increase Boo's energy.

They were obviously able to hurt each other more.

Gohan and Dabra were virtually equal, yet were unable to put out enough power to respectively increase Boo's energy. Dabra's so powerful, yet he can barely damage a weaker Gohan enough to gain energy. Sounds like a Super Saiyan level opponent.[/quote[

I'm afraid I'm not following. You're saying that Goku and Vegeta were equal, so they hurt each other bad, but Gohan and Dabura were equal, therefore they WEREN'T able to hurt each other bad?

Vegeta is convinced that any of them can handle Dabra as long as they watch for his stone spit, and Vegeta has no idea Goku is even beyond Super Saiyan at this point. Goku agrees with him and also has no idea that Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan. To me, this implies he was fully confident in their Super Saiyan level being enough to handle Dabra.

However, since Vegeta himself knows that he was able to get to SSJ2 just by training, he would obviously know (or at least be willing to bet) that Goku could, and WOULD also be around that level since Goku's always been so superior to Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The only official statement we have says he was a SS2. There. No confusion, no subjective visual comparisons, the official stance is just, simply, he was a Super Saiyan 2.

Except that it contradicts what we see in the manga and what's implied in the manga. And there is also Sparking! METEOR stating that Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament for some reason (in the character profiles).

And Daizenshuu 2 wrote that Gohan used SS2 only in one volume, and in that volume we only see the tournament, not the Gohan vs Dabra fight, etc.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Toriyama drew us a picture clearly showing us what Super Saiyan 1 and 2 each look like. In the original manga. Shown and labeled, and made extremely obvious.

That solves any and all confusion in one solid blow. Nothing else matters. Everything else is pointless minutiae and doesn't even come close to outweighing it. I have no doubt about this whatsoever in my mind.

It's easily contradicted in one panel, where's he stated to have been SSj2 and doesn't match the visible traits:

Spoiler:

Your example is proven to not apply to everything, even in Goku's case. Generalization does NOT work.

*Gasp* no lightning for a SSJ2 BURST! Yep that settles it, sparks aren't a defining factor of SSJ2. Seriously guys, quit fooling yourselves. He is NOT a SSJ2. Fact. Nuff said. Stop having a pointless argument. Remember this was a discussion about how strong Dabura is, not whether Gohan was a SSJ2 any point past the Budokai.

[Fionordequester]

So here's an interesting couple of quotes I dug up.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6
Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!!
Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.”

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P12.3-4
Context: after Dabra says he’ll fight on Stage 3
Babidi: “Da-Dabra…if yo-you get done in, I’ll be finished…Do you have a chance of winning?...”
Dabra: “A chance of winning?...Fuffuffuh…I’m Dabra, king of the Demon Realm…There doesn’t exist anyone in the entire world who exceeds my power…”

So Dabura sees EXACTLY how strong SSJ1 Goku was (3000 Kiri), yet is still completely confident in his ability to beat him, to the point that he tries to challenge all three of them at once. So how in the world would SSJ1 Gohan be able to last one second against him? Also...

Except that it contradicts what we see in the manga and what's implied in the manga. And there is also Sparking! METEOR stating that Gohan didn't use Super Saiyan 2 after the tournament for some reason (in the character profiles).

And Daizenshuu 2 wrote that Gohan used SS2 only in one volume, and in that volume we only see the tournament, not the Gohan vs Dabra fight, etc.

Didn't both of those sources come earlier than Daizenshuu #7?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku isn't necessarily at full power. He's only using SSJ as a light.