Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Salagir2]

Hi everyone! I've been reading a lot of pages here and seen a lot of very interesting discussion about the subject !

I liked a lot how you argued on if XXI move was cheap, smart, badass or cheat. I liked it a lot because that's exactly what I intended. Of course, there is no good answer, it's just a matter of point of view.

I can still say that indeed, DBM's tournament was never said to be a "martial art" tournament, and any kind of magic is allowed.


A few other points: yes even angry Vegetto can walk on the head of people without hurting them. As you could recently see, his tantrum wasn't so big, he was still controlling himself a lot. Something Buu doesn't seem to be doing ^^ (yeaaay spoiler for the page being released right now, although the time I finish this post, certainly 30mn will have passed ^^ -edit, wha, one hour...)
But most of you accepted that, comparing also to Cell punching Satan : that's exactly right.


About TheGmGoken quoting my answer mail : I have no problem with that. But if you're going to quote me from a context none can check, aka your mailbox, it'd be nice to quote me entirely. You actually removed the end of my sentence and added a dot to finish it where it didn't. The difference is very small, I agree, but I sound less arrogant. So I prefer, thank you.
Here is my full answer (2013-07-05) :

Le 30/06/2013 03:05, Tv Wonders a écrit :
> Do you think DBM is more canon than DBGT?

It's not a matter of think

Only the manga is canon, only thing written in the 42 volumes of the manga are canon. Any other production isn't.
DBGT isn't canon. DBM isn't canon.

As for trying to follow the canon and stay in it, I'd say DBM is doing a better job than DBGT, but my view is of course biased a lot...

--
Dragon Ball Multiverse Author

But yes, I do hate DBGT and when I say it got nothing to do with canon, I'm not defending DBM, but more attacking DBGT.
In DBGT, Trunks is crushed by a brick wall and needs to go SSJ to destroy it. In DBGT, Goku surfs on a kianzan. In DBGT, untransformed Goku takes in the face shots from Omega Shenron and isn't moving (then is beaten by old kulilin as shown in a very fun video trying to determine who is the strongest character of all gt). In DBGT, Goku needs a kameha to take off a DB from a giant teeth. In DBGT, the first bodyguard Goku crosses, he thinks he may be stronger than Buu. In DBGT, you grind coffee to make your tail grow back. In DBGT, Gohan goes SSJ. In DBGT, Vegeta got a mustache. Should I go on ?
Most of fan fictions I read are better at coherency and following the manga, or even the anime, than DBGT.


About changing Freeza's power to 56K : this is something I did in a french webpage about 10 years ago. It's mostly based on a translation error. On it, I've written in bold red that this is untrue, although I personally prefer. of course I DON'T follow that on DBM. (the page (french only) : http://www.dragon-ball-z.eu/these/comptage.html#s )
As someone said, a bunch of Oozarus can explode the 530K limit or even the 1M limit together (we don't know if freeza finished his transformation and what is his current powerlevel). Remember that almost ALL the saiyans were on the planet at the time, it was a BIG number of oozarus. Also, the "base" saiyan isn't 1K in my opinion. If it was, Raditz wouldn't be considered weak. I believe them to be more near 4K or 5K.
I know some artbook said Nappa is like 5000. That make no damn sense. If that was the case, he'd shit in his pants when scanning Goku at 8000 (or nine thousaaaaaan!). He didn't. He didn't understand why Goku was holding against him. Proof he is much bigger that 5000.

Yeah, putting goku's parents as elite is destroying the good story of the small child that grew against his origin to be the strongest. I agree this choice of mine was a loss for that. I totally agree. Although this effort part is just said one damn time in the manga (goku taking to vegeta at the beginning of their fight) and never used before or after, making that one of the less important points in the whole content of dragon ball, after boobs and Satan having stomach ache
Because honestly, Goku just LOVES to do efforts, as do all other characters, he trains for fun, and surpass everyone for no real reason. Oh yeah. He... trained. Like all others but... he's just damn better. Like that.
In DB, he is naturally better than everyone, getting the Kameha in a second, etc. In DBZ : 6 days to Namek and he goes from 20K to Freeza's level. 1 day in ROSAT and he goes from less than cyborg to almost Perfect Cell. 7 years in heaven, while Vegeta almost makes it SSJ2 (or just does, opened to debate), he goes SSJ3... Did he make more effort than Vegeta? Obviously not. Goku is naturally good, and was born good.

As weak King Vegeta, it totally make sense to me. King Vegeta was a ruler because of his intelligence, his charisma, the way he leads people. He was the first Saiyan ever to do such things. He is special in that way. I prefer King Vegeta as a (still strong) cunning leader than just the all so usual "me strong".
Of course, we have no canon hint on the King's power and you can disagree. I'm just doing a fanfic after all.

I posted that in the special :



Other details :

Gast was fusing with different clans of Namekians which isn't possible in the manga.

Never said anywhere in any manga. (no need to talk to me about dictionnaries / artbook, I don't care)
Clans in mangas are very badly explained by the way.

power and skills

99% of DBZ and even DB, power is the only important thing in a fight. ONLY. It can even surpass magic, as Vegetto as a candy is still stronger.
Personally, I try to change that in DBM.

Gohan / babidi's special: babidi being stupid, and other things you didn't like

I must admit that lowering Dabra's power thru such a move is very cheap from us, the authors. There certainly were much better solutions, but we didn't find them, we didn't agree on them (this chapter being originally written by Foenidis).
It's been hard to co-write this chapter, but I still like it. And I will defend Merkit against anyone. I won't defend a few other things ;p
Some details were changed or reduced to take less pages : that was stupid on my part. This chapter is "old" and in my more recent work, I try to give more space to let the story breathe and not condensate so much.


The FAQ as quoted here is deprecated. Davidstarlingm re-translated it very recently, thanks to him. Here is the updated version :

Dragon Ball -not-Z movies didn't happen.
DBZ Movies 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7 didn't happen.
Movie 6 (Coola) happened in many DBM universes, but differently (there will be a special chapter).
Movie 8 (Broly) happened, but with slight differences (read here).
Movie 9 (Bojack) happened, and turned out badly in universe 6.
Movie 10 (Broly's Return) happened, but the story is completely different.
Movies 11 and 12 didn't happen.
Movie 13 (Tapion) happened, with slight differences, in Universe 18 and in Universe 16. It also happened very differently in Universe 3.
The Dr. Raichi OAV may have happened in another universe not shown in the tournament. We'll tell you more later.
The Baddack TV Special happened, in most of the universes, except Baddack can't see the future. In universe 3, it happened differently.
The Trunks TV Special didn't happen in universes 16 and 18, but happened in universes 12 and 14.
The Tarble Movie didn't happen.
The new Badadck TV Special where he goes to the past didn't happen.
The new Movie (Battle of Gods)? We didn't see it so we don't know yet.
DBGT and the DBGT TV Special didn't happen.

I think we should come up with a new name to differentiate the two Brolys...

I like "DBM Broly"

she's bleeding in the last panel. no way she survived that.

You really want everyone to be one-shot killed ^^
Ok, first DBZ rule guys : no exploded body, not dead.


[edit] (reading pages backward now)
Wha! Thanks a lot, Tzigi, for this huge gathering of quotse from me on canon ! It will be very useful for me when in need of explaining!
I've read it all and can confirm here that I still agree with what I said.

only some of Bardock's visions are real?

All Baddack's visions in while in the tournament WILL HAPPEN.

(continue going back in the past) Missed fights...

Will be shown. Later.

[TheGmGoken]

But yes, I do hate DBGT and when I say it got nothing to do with canon, I'm not defending DBM, but more attacking DBGT.
In DBGT, Trunks is crushed by a brick wall and needs to go SSJ to destroy it. In DBGT, Goku surfs on a kianzan. In DBGT, untransformed Goku takes in the face shots from Omega Shenron and isn't moving (then is beaten by old kulilin as shown in a very fun video trying to determine who is the strongest character of all gt). In DBGT, Goku needs a kameha to take off a DB from a giant teeth. In DBGT, the first bodyguard Goku crosses, he thinks he may be stronger than Buu. In DBGT, you grind coffee to make your tail grow back. In DBGT, Gohan goes SSJ. In DBGT, Vegeta got a mustache. Should I go on ?
Most of fan fictions I read are better at coherency and following the manga, or even the anime, than DBGT.

Thanks for explaining. Oh shit. My mistake. I didn't read that part of the email. I'm very sorry.

[rereboy]

ditto. i liked what he had going, and would have thought that absorbing a huge part of his universe would at least make him more composed, but nope, standard angry villain rant.

well he'll get disqualified for smacking west kaioshin, so if he's going to pull something, it's going to be right now. incredibly dissapointing, as i wanted to see him advance further.

edit: oh shit, he didn't just smack her, he punched her full force, and she's bleeding in the last panel. no way she survived that.

What's the point of Buu keeping himself in the tournament if he can't fight Vegetto in it? That's what he wanted from the tournament, to face a challenge. And he probably consider Vegetto the only fighter capable of challenging him. So why would he want to stay in the tournament if Vegetto is out of the tournament? Might as well stop pretending to be a good guy, take whatever he wants by force and forcefully fight whoever he wants.

[coola]

Salagir2: Nothing against you, but, you hate DBGT, yet you include stuff that is almost as bad:
-Making characters randomly weaker/stronger (Freeza shouldn`t be nerfed without any specific reason, he was still same Freeza, only difference, was Bardock becoming King)
-Specials, most of them are just the same, "Bad guy massacre good guys" with is sad, becasue there is so much potential in them, like showing how Kakarotto lived on Earth.

[rereboy]

Salagir2: Nothing against you, but, you hate DBGT, yet you include stuff that is almost as bad:
-Making characters randomly weaker/stronger (Freeza shouldn`t be nerfed without any specific reason, he was still same Freeza, only difference, was Bardock becoming King)
-Specials, most of them are just the same, "Bad guy massacre good guys" with is sad, becasue there is so much potential in them, like showing how Kakarotto lived on Earth.

Salagir has just said in his post, if I read correctly, that there is no Freza nerf in DBM. That was in another fanfic of his a long time ago.

And specials are just that, extras, to fill in the time so that DBM doesn't have to take breaks. Why don't just ignore the specials if you don't like them? They don't diminish or alter the main story at all.

[bkev]

Well, so much for "Zen" Buu! I admit I liked what he had going on but to see the plot start moving again is nice.

[Draken]

I know some artbook said Nappa is like 5000. That make no damn sense. If that was the case, he'd shit in his pants when scanning Goku at 8000 (or nine thousaaaaaan!). He didn't. He didn't understand why Goku was holding against him. Proof he is much bigger that 5000.

He's actually only 4,000, and shit his pants when Vegeta said a power level of 5,000 was approaching, never damaged Goku in the slightest, had his ultimate attack brushed aside by Goku, etc etc. Proof he is 4,000.

[rereboy]

I know some artbook said Nappa is like 5000. That make no damn sense. If that was the case, he'd shit in his pants when scanning Goku at 8000 (or nine thousaaaaaan!). He didn't. He didn't understand why Goku was holding against him. Proof he is much bigger that 5000.

He's actually only 4,000, and shit his pants when Vegeta said a power level of 5,000 was approaching, never damaged Goku in the slightest, had his ultimate attack brushed aside by Goku, etc etc. Proof he is 4,000.

Its highly debatable. There's tons of fans that don't agree with that power level for Nappa. And its not like the guidebooks are above errors.

As for proof, there's no proof either way in the manga. Just indications that require interpretation.

[RandomGuy96]

He WAS 4,000. He also bled when hit by Piccolo (who obviously isn't <5,000 at that point... right?), got damaged by his one handed blast, screamed that there was no way that Goku could possibly be 5,000 while practically crapping himself (Vegeta later crushed the scouter, standard reaction when you think it's a piece of non-functional crap), couldn't tank Gohan's 2,800 blast, et cetera. No freaking way he's anywhere near 8,000. If he was, you'd think that he'd manage to hit Goku ONCE or do any sort of damage, or at least make Goku use effort to counter his ultimate attack point blank.

Also, IIRC Raditz was never called weak for a saiyan; just weak relative to two of the top five strongest saiyans to ever exist at the time (bar your super speshul OCs who are totally stronger than the King, seriously).

Criticizing DBGT for canon errors is indeed hypocritical, with things like the Cold wank (which, in addition to violating everything Cold said about Freeza as well as multiple guidebooks, makes Cold look really fucking dumb for showing up to kill someone who was stronger than Freeza in a weak form, and then not transforming when Trunks was being all casual with him and specifically TOLD him to come at him with his full power).

[dbzfan7]

I'm glad the story is now moving forward. But I really liked Zen Boo holding all the cards. I wanted him to slowly reveal the secrets he knew. I like how he seemed to know everything. Oh well.

[rereboy]

I do agree that Raditz was only called weak compared to the elites (Nappa and Vegeta). But its kind of weird that a normal power level Saiyan would have pretty much the same power as one Saibamen. So I'm conflicted regarding Radditz's power being considered normal for Saiyans or weak.

[Salagir2]

Salagir2: Nothing against you, but, you hate DBGT, yet you include stuff that is almost as bad:
-Making characters randomly weaker/stronger (Freeza shouldn`t be nerfed without any specific reason, he was still same Freeza, only difference, was Bardock becoming King)

As explains rereboy, it's not the case.
Also, the page in question wasn't a fanficion, but a theory, as we fans like to do.

-Specials, most of them are just the same, "Bad guy massacre good guys" with is sad, becasue there is so much potential in them,

Yes, Cell & Bojack specials didn't have an interesting scenario. I agree. I didn't participate much in their scenario actually. At the time I was very dependent on cartoonists and most of them only wanted to draw fights.
Note that the special with the most scenario was the one on Vegetto, and also the one which was the most hated
I believe the specials to get better over time. They have more and more scenarios and revelations. Note that specials are NOT released in the same order they were done. A few of them are already done and wait for their turn since a few YEARS.

like showing how Kakarotto lived on Earth.

Under construction, actually.

and shit his pants when Vegeta said a power level of 5,000 was approaching

Does not. When he hears about the power level, he is amazed that someone can be 400 a year ago and ten times more now. Vegeta orders to kill the others so they won't be overwhelmed when he'll be here, which BTW is illogical as Vegeta is 18000 and should not fear that at all.
Then, after reading 8000, Nappa still goes to fight him. Can you even imagine Saiyans, who count so much on their scouters, to go fight a guy the double his power? It's just inconsistent. Nappa would at least say "But Vegeta.... I can't win..." and maybe Vegeta would push him to fight. But that didn't happen. A little after in the fight, Vegeta tells Nappa "Come on, he isn't a dangerous opponent!!!" And Nappa agrees, saying he lost his cool.
Nappa just CAN'T be 4000.

never damaged Goku in the slightest, had his ultimate attack brushed aside by Goku, etc etc. Proof he is 4,000.

Proof Goku changes his power level in the fight.

Also, IIRC Raditz was never called weak for a saiyan; just weak relative to two of the strongest saiyans ever.

Good point.

Criticizing DBGT for canon errors is indeed hypocritical, with things like the Cold wank.

My Cold won't ever be stopped by a wall of bricks

[RandomGuy96]

Does not. When he hears about the power level, he is amazed that someone can be 400 a year ago and ten times more now. Vegeta orders to kill the others so they won't be overwhelmed when he'll be here, which BTW is illogical as Vegeta is 18000 and should not fear that at all.
Then, after reading 8000, Nappa still goes to fight him. Can you even imagine Saiyans, who count so much on their scouters, to go fight a guy the double his power? It's just inconsistent. Nappa would at least say "But Vegeta.... I can't win..." and maybe Vegeta would push him to fight. But that didn't happen. A little after in the fight, Vegeta tells Nappa "Come on, he isn't a dangerous opponent!!!" And Nappa agrees, saying he lost his cool.
Nappa just CAN'T be 4000.

No, he continuously screams that the scouter is broken or it made a mistake, and Vegeta goes so far as to crush it, standard reaction when you think it's a useless piece of crap.

I can imagine Nappa not believing the scouter and charging... which is what he did. This is the dumbass who tried to tank a Kienzan. He proceeded to get his ass handed to him on a plate, and could do little other than just gape in awe by the end of the battle.

Also, why wasn't he able to tank Piccolo and Gohan? Neither of them were over 5,000. If he were really 8,000 he shouldn't have been affected at all.

My Cold won't ever be stopped by a wall of bricks

Still doesn't excuse making him ultra strong and an idiot for really no reason. Why not just use Cooler for the role of "powerful Frost Demon who actually advances"? He actually IS stronger than Freeza... no need to violate canon or anything.

Proof Goku changes his power level in the fight.

No power change was noted... and he couldn't power up, unless you believe he temporarily used the kaio-ken, and his Kamehameha wasn't even charged. All it proves is that Nappa is extremely weak.

[rereboy]

..

Not to mention that Nappa was hit by Goku using Kaioken (which would make his power level (16000) and he didn't die. A 4000 power level fighter would most likely just die if he was hit by a fast attack of a 16000 power level fighter.

[Kaboom]

Nappa just CAN'T be 4000.

Looks like someone else fails my litmus test.

[Kamiccolo9]

Not to mention that Nappa was hit by Goku using Kaioken (which would make his power level (16000) and he didn't die. A 4000 power level fighter would most likely just die if he was hit by a fast attack of a 16000 power level fighter.

Goku at 3 million took hits from Freeza at 60 million and lived. Saiyans are just tough.

[rereboy]

Not to mention that Nappa was hit by Goku using Kaioken (which would make his power level (16000) and he didn't die. A 4000 power level fighter would most likely just die if he was hit by a fast attack of a 16000 power level fighter.

Goku at 3 million took hits from Freeza at 60 million and lived. Saiyans are just tough.

Goku was constantly using Kaioken throughout the fight, even when the art didn't show it, as was noted and stated by Kaio. So a power level of 3.000.000 is just assumed to be a possible base power level for Goku at that point without Kaioken. Also, Freeza had control over his power and his punches and could strike harder or softer or with more power or less. I don't know if Goku could do something like that in Kaioken because while in Kaioken, your power is forced to be that powerful. Therefore I don't think that Goku restrained himself at all when he hit Nappa, while Freeza could have (in fact, just by using a percentage of his power, we are already led to believe that Freeza wanted to hurt Goku instead of immediately defeating him).

[Kamiccolo9]

Not to mention that Nappa was hit by Goku using Kaioken (which would make his power level (16000) and he didn't die. A 4000 power level fighter would most likely just die if he was hit by a fast attack of a 16000 power level fighter.

Goku at 3 million took hits from Freeza at 60 million and lived. Saiyans are just tough.

Goku was constantly using Kaioken throughout the fight, even when the art didn't show it, as was noted and stated by Kaio. Also, Freeza had control over his power and his punches and could strike harder or softer or with more power or less. I don't know if Goku could do something like that in Kaioken because while in Kaioken, your power is forced to be that powerful. Therefore I don't think that Goku restrained himself at all when he hit Nappa, while Freeza could have (in fact, just by using a percentage of his power, we are already led to believe that Freeza wanted to hurt Goku instead of immediately defeating him).

I doubt Goku was using Kaio-Ken while he was charging the Genki Dama and Freeza got mad and kicked him in the face.
Goku didn't want to kill Nappa; he wanted to cripple him. And he did.

[Salagir2]

Liking the debate, but I must go to bed in order to work in a few hours; This is my last post.

I've been checking the manga and I agree the fights don't show a 8000 Nappa. Although I wouldn't say a 4000 either. With one punch only, he breaks or kill everyone, including Piccolo. Raditz was 3x Piccolo and didn't do that.
As for the characters reactions, Nappas says it must be broken, but both still act not so afraid of Goku although all shows that he is much greater than the others. They also know that scooters give a "minimum" power level (Vegeta thinks about that when he asks to kill the others : "It's 5000 minimum"). I don't see how could Nappa acts so arrogant at 4000 when scanning people : "981... 1220... 1083... you suck".... Feel confident against a mass of people who cumulate to more than his power (when tenshinan & yamcha arrive...) And again, still not be afraid of Goku who clearly is something and may be the 5000, at least, that was scanned...

My Cold won't ever be stopped by a wall of bricks

Still doesn't excuse making him ultra strong and an idiot for really no reason.

Well, he is only shown in "second form of reduction". That means potential, that mean using it.

Why not just use Cooler for the role of "powerful Frost Demon who actually advances"? He actually IS stronger than Freeza... no need to violate canon or anything.

Even "first form of augmentation" Coola can still be beaten by a basic SSJ1. So in order to level up, what should I have done ? Adding augmentation transformations to Coola ? I don't think you'd actually have preferred

[rereboy]

I doubt Goku was using Kaio-Ken while he was charging the Genki Dama and Freeza got mad and kicked him in the face.
Goku didn't want to kill Nappa; he wanted to cripple him. And he did.

That's why I stated that Freeza was pulling punches the whole fight. Like I said, the mere fact that he was using a percentage of his full power is already a dead give away that he didn't want to immediately defeat and kill Goku but wanted to hurt him and humiliate him instead. When he kicked Goku, he didn't intend to kill him so he restrained himself. When he actually intended to kill him, Goku was saved by Piccolo.

And exactly how would Goku restrain himself and only hurt Nappa instead of killing him while using Kaioken? If he was using Kaioken, his power was automatically 16.000. He couldn't be using Kaioken and restraing his power at the same time. And besides that, he didn't even hit Nappa at a slow velocity, he hit him at a velocity that was superior to the maximum velocity he could achieve with his 8.000 power level. So, its pretty clear to me that in those conditions he didn't restrain his power or pull his punch at all, because he couldn't under the circumstances. On the other hand, Freeza could and most likely did.