Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Kaboom]

One old guide from an anime comic or something listed Nappa at 4500 instead of 4000.

Does that sit better with anyone? Being a little bit OVER half of Goku's strength instead of a little bit UNDER it? I sometimes wonder if that relatively small but crucial difference, had it been kept and reprinted instead of 4000, would be enough to warm people up to Nappa's relatively low standing compared to Goku.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Excuse me Salagir2 but I don't appreciate you claiming Nappa's power level can't work. Nappa pretty much has to be 4,000 to make sense within the context of the story. Remember Nappa freaks out at the mere mention of Goku's power level registering at 5,000.

[Kamiccolo9]

I doubt Goku was using Kaio-Ken while he was charging the Genki Dama and Freeza got mad and kicked him in the face.
Goku didn't want to kill Nappa; he wanted to cripple him. And he did.

That's why I stated that Freeza was pulling punches the whole fight. Like I said, the mere fact that he was using a percentage of his full power is already a dead give away that he didn't want to immediately defeat and kill Goku but wanted to hurt him and humiliate him instead. When he kicked Goku, he didn't intend to kill him so he restrained himself. When he actually intended to kill him, Goku was saved by Piccolo.

And exactly how would Goku restrain himself and only hurt Nappa instead of killing him while using Kaioken? If he was using Kaioken, his power was automatically 16.000. He couldn't be using Kaioken and restraing his power at the same time. And besides that, he didn't even hit Nappa at a slow velocity, he hit him at a velocity that was superior to the maximum velocity he could achieve with his 8.000 power level. So, its pretty clear that to me that in those conditions he didn't restrain his power or pull his punch at all, because he couldn't under the circumstances. On the other hand, Freeza could and most likely did.

Kaio-Ken involves complete concentration and control of your ki. I imagine that Goku could restrain himself as much as he wanted. And Saiyans are tough. Look at the Vegeta fight; he gets beat all to hell, and can still take out everyone. Goku has plenty of endurance feats, Saiyans are naturally capable of surviving at high gravity, etc. And Goku is a master martial artist. I imagine he knows how to hit someone without killing them. And he didn't want to kill Nappa.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku merely tried to stop, not kill him. He broke Nappa's back in the process of doing that though.

[rereboy]

Why don't we all just agree that there are enough indicators to sustain different opinions regarding Nappa's power level? Yes, some things seem to not make much sense if we consider Nappa's power level to be close to Goku's 8000. But on the other hand other things also seem to not make much sense if we consider his power to only be 4000. That's all there is to it.

Personally, I think it would make most sense if Nappa was somewhere between 5000 and 5500 or 6000.

[dprez]

The Nappa thing is another one of those debates...

I like to think that in the end he is actually closer to Goku's 8,000. It just makes sense to me the way their fight went after Vegeta got Nappa to calm down. Nappa was just shocked to hear his power level is that high after less than a year ago he was a measly 400. Of course I understand he did "power-up" earlier, and if he was near 8,000 then, you'd think Gohan and the rest shouldn't have even been able to scratch him like they did. Possibly being confronted with someone like Goku and his power, Nappa just took it up a notch, to what I think his real "full power" was.

Thank you Salagir2 for clearing some things up. We see eye-to-eye on a few things. I like how you view the guide books in these debates.

I also like how Boo is raging right now. That's just how powerful Boo is. Always on a rampage.

[RandomGuy96]

One old guide from an anime comic or something listed Nappa at 4500 instead of 4000.

Does that sit better with anyone? Being a little bit OVER half of Goku's strength instead of a little bit UNDER it? I sometimes wonder if that relatively small but crucial difference, had it been kept and reprinted instead of 4000, would be enough to warm people up to Nappa's relatively low standing compared to Goku.

Either 4,000 or 4,500 works fine, but I guess I'd prefer the latter because it puts a bigger gap between him and Piccolo.

I've been checking the manga and I agree the fights don't show a 8000 Nappa. Although I wouldn't say a 4000 either. With one punch only, he breaks or kill everyone, including Piccolo. Raditz was 3x Piccolo and didn't do that.

He took Piccolo with an off guard elbow to the back of the neck, just like Majin Vegeta did to Goku, so it doesn't really prove anything. He was like 4 times as strong as Gohan and over twice as strong as Krillin and Tien.

Raditz being x3 Piccolo and not doing that doesn't really prove anything other than things are inconsistent/Raditz likes to toy. See Goku shrugging off a beat down from 18,000 Vegeta when he was only 8,000, doing the same thing to 50% Freeza who was 60,000,000 to his 3,000,000, et cetera and yet Vegeta one-shotting Cui (who was nowhere near twice as weak as him) and Goku one-shotting Recoome (who was closer to him than Piccolo was to Raditz).

And again, do you think someone at over three times another's strength can't tank them? That's just silly. We didn't see Piccolo and Nappa fight a lot; we saw Nappa take him off guard when Piccolo's tail strategy failed, and taking him off guard and unbraced again when Piccolo saved Gohan (kind of like when Gohan saved Vegeta). Whenever Piccolo attacked Nappa, he damaged him.

Even "first form of augmentation" Coola can still be beaten by a basic SSJ1. So in order to level up, what should I have done ? Adding augmentation transformations to Coola ? I don't think you'd actually have preferred

Movie 5 Goku > Yardrat Goku > Namek Goku is stated in the movie. "Basic SSJ1" doesn't mean anything because that's such a wide range of strength. For example, Future Trunks (Mecha Arc) and Namek Goku were both "basic SSJ1", yet the former had some trouble with Freeza while the latter was stated to be able to take out a much stronger Freeza in seconds. Android Arc Goku is a "basic SSJ1" just like he was when he returned from Yardrat, but Android Arc Goku is obviously strong enough to roflstomp Yardrat Goku. If Cooler had fought, say, Namek Goku, the result would be very, VERY different. Given how he almost killed a much, much stronger Goku, I'd go so far as to say he'd stomp him. He didn't need to level up at all with the weak opponents you have Cold going up against.

Well, he is only shown in "second form of reduction". That means potential, that mean using it.

Except Cold flat out said Freeza > him and he looks like an idiot in your version of the events. Cold was also never implied to be able to transform, so that "second form of reduction" stuff doesn't mean anything.

[TheGmGoken]

The Nappa thing is another one of those debates...

I like to think that in the end he is actually closer to Goku's 8,000. It just makes sense to me the way their fight went after Vegeta got Nappa to calm down. Nappa was just shocked to hear his power level is that high after less than a year ago he was a measly 400. Of course I understand he did "power-up" earlier, and if he was near 8,000 then, you'd think Gohan and the rest shouldn't have even been able to scratch him like they did. Possibly being confronted with someone like Goku and his power, Nappa just took it up a notch, to what I think his real "full power" was.

Thank you Salagir2 for clearing some things up. We see eye-to-eye on a few things. I like how you view the guide books in these debates.

I also like how Boo is raging right now. That's just how powerful Boo is. Always on a rampage.

I honestly think Nappa just have high durability.

[dprez]

Personally, I think it would make most sense if Nappa was somewhere between 5000 and 5500 or 6000.

This is what I see as likely. 4,000 just seams to low for me personally.

[rereboy]

Kaio-Ken involves complete concentration and control of your ki. I imagine that Goku could restrain himself as much as he wanted.

So you're saying that Goku could have been using Kaioken, which automatically doubles your power, while at the same time being able to restrain or suppress his power in order to not kill Nappa, even though he also hit him at a velocity greater than any he could achieve without Kaioken.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to just disagree with you.

Also, notice that I never said that Saiyans aren't tough. They sure are. But that on itself doesn't invalidate what I argued. In fact, if Sayiyans weren't very tough I would say that Nappa wouldn't have survived Goku's Kaioken blow even if he ahd a power level of 9000.

[rereboy]

Goku merely tried to stop, not kill him. He broke Nappa's back in the process of doing that though.

He stopped him with a power level of 16.000 and a blow delivered at a velocity higher than his maximum velocity without Kaioken. Like I argued, can't really see how he could have restrained himself at that speed and while using Kaioken. And yet Nappa lived.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kaio-Ken involves complete concentration and control of your ki. I imagine that Goku could restrain himself as much as he wanted.

So your saying that Goku could have been using Kaioken, which automatically doubles your power, while at the same time being able to restrain or suppress his power in order to not kill Nappa, even though he also hit him at a velocity greater than one he could achieve without Kaioken.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to just disagree with you.

SSJ multiplies power by 50, yet the Saiyans can still use it without going all out. Again, Goku is an expert fighter. He knows how to hurt someone without killing them. And Goku has exact control over his ki while using Kaio-Ken, so he could hold back as much as he wanted.

[TheMightyOzaru]

The Daizenshuu 7 says he is 4,000 so he's 4,000. The manga also implies his BP is lower than 5,000 so this makes sense. I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about Nappa's OFFICIAL, in case that needed clarification, power level.

[dprez]

Goku could have held back enough to not slay his foe, and Nappa could just be really durable. Nappa could also have a power closer to Goku's non Kaio-Ken base power of 8,000, like he seamed to. Goku even commented on how this was much better and that he didn't know if he could beet him quickly without Kaio-ken. This is my interpretation.

[TheGmGoken]

I'm pretty sure characters can decided whatever to kill beat up, or KO their adversary. Since if I can remember no accident kills ever happen. Goku even spared Freeza with his Ki blast(Angry Kamehameha in games).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku could have held back enough to not slay his foe, and Nappa could just be really durable. Nappa could also have a power closer to Goku's non Kaio-Ken base power of 8,000, like he seamed to. Goku even commented on how this was much better and that he didn't know if he could beet him quickly without Kaio-ken. This is my interpretation.

Nappa freaked out at Goku's BP reading of 5,000 and the Daizenshuu say he is 4,000.

[dprez]

The Daizenshuu 7 says he is 4,000 so he's 4,000. The manga also implies his BP is lower than 5,000 so this makes sense. I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about Nappa's OFFICIAL, in case that needed clarification, power level.

I disagree with this statement. The guidebooks say quite a few (seemingly important) things that are simply not the case in the manga.

The manga implies that Nappa is surprised by Goku's power, nothing more.

Nappa freaked out at Goku's BP reading of 5,000 and the Daizenshuu say he is 4,000.

He "freaked out" because Goku should not be that strong. It is impossible. I know what the Daizenshuu says. It says things that aren't true.

[rereboy]

The Daizenshuu 7 says he is 4,000 so he's 4,000. The manga also implies his BP is lower than 5,000 so this makes sense. I'm not sure why people are so up in arms about Nappa's OFFICIAL, in case that needed clarification, power level.

Because databooks and guides aren't above error, nor they are to be treated as some sort of bible of information of a series whose author isn't even known for his carefully and well planned plot or his impeccable memory regarding them. Nor are the teams who frequently work in the Dragon Ball franchise known for never making mistakes or for always having things very well thought out.

[Storm101]

I have to respect Salagir for being calm and willing to jump in on the debates. There's been some really mean hateful stuff posted in this topic towards him over the months.

[rereboy]

I'm pretty sure characters can decided whatever to kill beat up, or KO their adversary. Since if I can remember no accident kills ever happen. Goku even spared Freeza with his Ki blast(Angry Kamehameha in games).

Because they can alway restrain their power or just not hit their opponents very hard. But in Nappa's case, Kaioken ensured that Goku had a power level of 16.000 and Goku couldn't avoid hitting him very hard because he was traveling at a speed higher than his maximum speed without Kaioken.