Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
We went through this before - half of these fan theories just don't make sense.
For one, Goku says "Like this" indicating physical size, as explained here
smiley wrote:The mere fact that they were small should evidence enough that they are not as strong as they would be at their normal sizes (by 'not as strong', I don't mean in terms of ki quantity). It's practically an axiom that a lesser size means a far inferior physical power, and it should also probably be obvious that it implies that the scope of their attacks is limited [1]. It may merely be the case that they were not aware of the extent of their handicap until Goku fired his ki blast.
[1] If you think it works differently in Dragonball, consider the giant Piccolo at the 23rd TB. He thought he could win against someone stronger than himself by becoming bigger. And everyone else seemed to believe that, as well. So although Goku was stronger than even giant Piccolo, we can certainly conclude that giant Piccolo was stronger than regular Piccolo.
When Goku talks about fighting SuperBuu, he is clearly talking about size, as earlier Goku was unafraid to face a MUCH more powerful GotenksBuu head on, and this point is further reinforced when Goku brings up fusion as a solution. When fused, Vegetitto was able to hold his own against Buu, despite being just the size of candy.
No, ''like this'' means unfused.Vegetto managed to retain his power as a candy, probably because of the Potara,
Answer me this:What good would removing Good Buu do, if they still would be small and therefore weaker?
This size thing is baseless.
Goku wanted no parts of Gotenks Boo. When he starts flying towards him, Goku looks scared as fuck.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
MDSTSSJ wrote:Is a fact that Goku lied and dodged answers several times in the Boo´s Arc for a good reason. Lies are not conclusive or determinative but unfortunately, are very important in discussions of power in the Boo Saga. And by those lies, dodged answers and hurt the Vegeta´s pride, is not so easy to know the actual strength of SSJ3 Kakarotto in my personal opinion.
Is a fact ( Manga an Anime ) that Super Boo, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are way stronger than SSJ3 Kakarotto. For me, seeing it better now, from 4 to 6 times stronger but never 8 to 10 times.
Note: For me, x2 gap y a very big difference.
And it's a fact that all those lies or dodges were later cleared up.
So where does the random "I'm actually several times stronger than I really am even though SSJ3 has a limit of being 4x stronger than SSJ2 and I can beat a fusion and am stronger than my son who has more latent power than me" lie come from?
Not to mention that Goku had to be TOLD that he's small and is shocked when he hears it. And Vegetto obviously wasn't expecting to be small after exiting Buu.
On top of that, when mini-Buu approaches them, Goku is still scared, and Buu says that they still can't beat him unfused, even though they're all small. They immediately resort to yanking out Good Buu. He sensed SS3 Goku numerous times btw.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Axiom wrote:For one, Goku says "Like this" indicating physical size
Then why does Goku say to Vegeta later that they should go out & use Fusion to easily beat him? Obviously, he isn't taking into account their sizes at that point.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
The size excuse is easily the stupidest excuse I've heard in favor of Goku being stronger than Evil(Super) Buu. I'm sorry if that's offensive but it's truly stupid.
Axiom wrote:For one, Goku says "Like this" indicating physical size, as explained here
Umm no "like this" is referring to the fact they aren't fused .
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
And the only reason why Evil Boo mentions their size is to show why they can't escape out of his body because they are too small but not why they can't win. Being unfused is the reason which is why Evil Boo is happy when he hears they can't fuse
It would seem to me it's implied their Ki size had shrunk with them. Problem with that stupid theory is that Goku said he couldn't handle Buu BEFORE Buu HAD to tell them their Ki had shrunk. At least that's how I gathered it.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Draken wrote:
And it's a fact that all those lies or dodges were later cleared up.
So where does the random "I'm actually several times stronger than I really am even though SSJ3 has a limit of being 4x stronger than SSJ2 and I can beat a fusion and am stronger than my son who has more latent power than me" lie come from?
Yes most of all minus SSJ3 Goku go all out against Pure Boo. Vegeta realize that Kakarotto is not using all SSJ3 power by the presence of him. When Vegeta tells that, it's too late for Goku who was exhausted and lost almost all his energy.
I never support that big random lie. I believe in the SEG multipliers for the first time transformations but also believe that the Super Saiyan transformations can be mastered ( personal opinion ), so the multipliers should change.
Besides that, I also believe in the Ki suppressions when the character requires.
Of course Goku was small, and he knew it - he just didn't realize how small he was.
smiley wrote:
The "like this" quote can plausibly refer to either their miniature sizes or their non-fused states. As for the fact they thought they would do better if they had Potara; maybe that's true, after all, Vegetto was stronger than Buu even in his candy form. So maybe miniature Vegetto could defeat Buu. Or maybe they just thought they would be fast enough to get away.
Goku wasn't confident that he could even weaken Buu back to his SuperBuu self, though Vegeta believe that him and Goku are fully capable of defeating Buu without Fusion
smiley wrote:
In support of this interpretation, consider the following dialogue between Goku and Vegeta. I copied this from a scanlation, so I don't know how it sounds in the Viz or the original manga.
Vegeta: Plus, we don't need to fuse anymore.
Goku: We don't know yet! There's no guarantee that we'll save everyone and lead them to safety.
From the moment they defused, they were aiming to weaken Gohan-Buu to regular Super Buu form, so that he would be easier to defeat. They even think they won't need to fuse if they accomplish this.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It would seem to me it's implied their Ki size had shrunk with them. Problem with that stupid theory is that Goku said he couldn't handle Buu BEFORE Buu HAD to tell them their Ki had shrunk. At least that's how I gathered it.
Possible - Goku attempted to blow a hole in BUU and couldn't manage it, at which point BUU reminded (as Goku I'm sure is already aware) how much smaller he is now.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
Look at the order in which these took place. Goku is talking about having to resort to fusion before he realizes how small they are. He didn't realize that his power was lowered until he attempted to shoot his way out.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:It would seem to me it's implied their Ki size had shrunk with them. Problem with that stupid theory is that Goku said he couldn't handle Buu BEFORE Buu HAD to tell them their Ki had shrunk. At least that's how I gathered it.
Possible - Goku attempted to blow a hole in BUU and couldn't manage it, at which point BUU reminded (as Goku I'm sure is already aware) how much smaller he is now.
Why the hell would Goku have to be reminded his Ki had shrunk? Goku's stupid but he's not THAT stupid. Honestly, it bothers me that people completely throw out logic to satisfy their personal preferences . I would like it if Goku was stronger too, but he isn't. Gohan and Gotenks would crush Goku with no effort.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
Look at the order in which these took place. Goku is talking about having to resort to fusion before he realizes how small they are. He didn't realize that his power was lowered until he attempted to shoot his way out.
Or this tidbit
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!” Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.
Notice how Goku wants to return Super Boo to the first one. Which is what he later calls the Fat Boo, the very first one.
But the Church of Goku never gives up.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I think that Goku & Vegeta's power has indeed shrunk when they were made small. Possibly because they couldn't hold that much power in such small bodies. And the reason why Goku didn't notice that was because his ki was just right for his small body, proportionally.
hleV wrote:I think that Goku & Vegeta's power has indeed shrunk when they were made small. Possibly because they couldn't hold that much power in such small bodies. And the reason why Goku didn't notice that was because his ki was just right for his small body, proportionally.
Exactly. Which is why he thought he had a chance of blowing a hole in Buu. He felt that he was as strong as he normally was, until Buu corrected him.
.
