Nail And The Ginyu Force

[Undertaker]

Reccome survived Vegeta's blasts with no major damage and called it a warm up. Vegeta could not even survive Cui Cui's blasts if he had to stay still instead of using his speed to move

Zarbon and Dodria can take out Vegeta if they team up. Again, Reccome beat Vegeta easier than Monster Zarbon so 40,000 works fine

Who says Vegeta couldn't survive Kui's blasts? Who says that Zarbon and Dodoria could team up and take Vegeta? What does that have to do with Recoome's Battle Power?

Vegeta didn't just stood there as he moved aside

Frieza says it

It has to do because Reccome survived Vegeta's attack without taking a serious damage and Vegeta's attack should be amplified and > 30,000 by a lot

Saichuru says Nail could only help them a little a bit. I really find it doubtful he's stronger than any of them by a big amount, he should be in par with them.

I find it doubtful that a pseudo final flash would have such a low multiplier as to not damage some one at 7k stronger than vegeta.

[Kamiccolo9]

Reccome survived Vegeta's blasts with no major damage and called it a warm up. Vegeta could not even survive Cui Cui's blasts if he had to stay still instead of using his speed to move

Zarbon and Dodria can take out Vegeta if they team up. Again, Reccome beat Vegeta easier than Monster Zarbon so 40,000 works fine

Who says Vegeta couldn't survive Kui's blasts? Who says that Zarbon and Dodoria could team up and take Vegeta? What does that have to do with Recoome's Battle Power?

Vegeta didn't just stood there as he moved aside

Freeza says it

It has to do because Reccome survived Vegeta's attack without taking a serious damage and Vegeta's attack should be amplified and > 30,000 by a lot

Saichuru says Nail could only help them a little a bit. I really find it doubtful he's stronger than any of them by a big amount, he should be in par with them.

I find it doubtful that a pseudo final flash would have such a low multiplier as to not damage some one at 7k stronger than vegeta.

So? I could survive a punch to the face. Doesn't mean I wouldn't get out of the way.
And a couple of us have spent the last page or so saying why they couldn't take Vegeta. It would help if you would, you know, read the thread.
Says who? It was an unnamed ki attack, and he didn't spend much time charging it. No need for any huge amplification.
37,000 and 42,000 isn't that big of a difference. Also note that there were 3 of the Ginyus around Nail's level.

[Undertaker]

Reccome survived Vegeta's blasts with no major damage and called it a warm up. Vegeta could not even survive Cui Cui's blasts if he had to stay still instead of using his speed to move

Zarbon and Dodria can take out Vegeta if they team up. Again, Reccome beat Vegeta easier than Monster Zarbon so 40,000 works fine

Who says Vegeta couldn't survive Kui's blasts? Who says that Zarbon and Dodoria could team up and take Vegeta? What does that have to do with Recoome's Battle Power?

Vegeta didn't just stood there as he moved aside

Freeza says it

It has to do because Reccome survived Vegeta's attack without taking a serious damage and Vegeta's attack should be amplified and > 30,000 by a lot

Saichuru says Nail could only help them a little a bit. I really find it doubtful he's stronger than any of them by a big amount, he should be in par with them.

I find it doubtful that a pseudo final flash would have such a low multiplier as to not damage some one at 7k stronger than vegeta.

So? I could survive a punch to the face. Doesn't mean I wouldn't get out of the way.
And a couple of us have spent the last page or so saying why they couldn't take Vegeta. It would help if you would, you know, read the thread.
Says who? It was an unnamed ki attack, and he didn't spend much time charging it. No need for any huge amplification.
37,000 and 42,000 isn't that big of a difference. Also note that there were 3 of the Ginyus around Nail's level.[/quote]

You can't tank a punch unless you are 2X stronger and 42,000 is much > than 37,000 which is what you imply

Yep, Nail's level meaning 40,000+

Reccome took Vegeta out even easier than Monster Zarbon

Why is it hard for you to agree Reccome is at 40,000?

[Kamiccolo9]

You can't tank a punch unless you are 2X stronger and 42,000 is much > than 37,000 which is what you imply

Yep, Nail's level meaning 40,000+

Reccome took Vegeta out even easier than Monster Zarbon

Why is it hard for you to agree Reccome is at 40,000?

Use proper grammar. It's not that difficult, and I'm tired of having to decipher what you're talking about.
The Kikoho was a highly amplified attack that Nappa wasn't twox stronger than, yet he tanked it. Same with Gohan's Masenko, and Piccolo's blast. Freeza tanked Goku's Kamehameha, which was equal to Freeza's power. So no, you don't have to be twice as strong to tank an attack.
42,000 isn't that much stronger than 37,000. And I'm fully ok with Nail being stronger than the Ginyus.
Speaking of Nail's strength, I'm looking right now, and no comparison is made between Nail and the Ginyus. So where are you getting this quote about Nail from?
You can't compare this fight to the Zarbon one. Zarbon went all out from the beginning, and crushed Vegeta, while Vegeta managed to get in a bunch of hits against Recoome, who was just playing around.
I'm fine with 40,000. 37,000 just works better.

[Draken]

Why is it hard for you to agree Reccome is at 40,000?

Probably because it's so hard for you to not state everything like a fact and think your opinion trumps everyone else's.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, powerlevels are arbitrary numbers.

Logically, Ginyu Force's members (besides Guldo) are between 30,000 and 60,000, so we don't have exact numbers. But I think Nail can win Jeice in a hard fight. Nameckuseijins are wise fighters, I think they have some advantage over another fighters that have the same strenght.

Vegeta was at 30,000 and a Gyarikiho to Earth had a "1/3+" add, comparing Vegeta's powerlevel with Goku kaioken x3's powerlevel. The most powerful attack of Vegeta would be at 40,000 IMO, so it's safe to think the Ginyu Force's standard members would be around 40,000.

Personally,

Recoome - 40,000
Burter - 41,000
Jeice - 42,000

[rereboy]

Vegeta was at 30,000 and a Gyarikiho to Earth had a "1/3+" add,

If the Saiyans could change their power levels while attacking, Radditz wouldn't have freaked out when Goku and Piccolo did it agaisnt him.

Vegeta only became able to suppress his power level and increase it when he learned to control his Ki after his defeat on Earth.

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta was at 30,000 and a Gyarikiho to Earth had a "1/3+" add,

If the Saiyans could change their power levels while attacking, Radditz wouldn't have freaked out when Goku and Piccolo did it agaisnt him.

Vegeta only became able to suppress his power level and increase it when he learned to control his Ki after his defeat on Earth.

Just curious, how do you explain Vegeta's Galic Gun being able to match Goku's Kaio-Kenx3 Kamehameha?

[RandomGuy96]

Just because a low ranking grunt like Raditz doesn't know doesn't mean the elites don't know. In fact it would be stupid if they didn't, since Nappa's mouth blast and Vegeta's Galick Gun were both clearly amplified.

[Pantalones]

The gap between Reccome and Vegeta should be at least the same like the gap between Goku and Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc when Goku used Kaioken X3

24,000 - 18,000 = 6000
36,000 - 30,000 = 6000

Hmm.

Okay, so it's less of a gap if you're going by one number as a percentage of the other... but if you look at it a different way, going by raw numbers alone, a gap of 6000 between Recoome and Vegeta is pretty much the same as the gap of 6000 between Goku's Kaio-ken x3 and Vegeta. (...of course, Kaio-ken x3 Goku vs. Vegeta should actually be a slightly bigger gap than just 6000 since Goku was "over 8000," not just 8000... but since there's no specific number stated everyone seems to just put him at 8000/16,000/24,000 exactly.)

[RandomGuy96]

Its all percentage based, not numbers based.

Anyway, I don't know why it needs to have the same gap; Vegeta put up a much better fight against Recoome than he did against Goku there. 37,000 works fine for me. I think that, since it was barley charged, the Final Crash only had x1.2 amplification, giving it an offensive power of 36,000; strong enough to damage Recoome, but weak enough that Recoome can shrug it off.

I think it's implied though that the same blast would've inflicted a lot of damage to someone of the same power level as Recoome, and Recoome was just tough for his level, evidence by Gohan and Krillin being shocked at how little damage Recoome took even after sensing his ki.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

I'd say Nail is stronger than Recoome and almost on par with Jeice and Burter but slightly above them.

However if Jeice and Burter teamed up like they did in the Goku battle, I think they would defeat Nail.

[rereboy]

Vegeta was at 30,000 and a Gyarikiho to Earth had a "1/3+" add,

If the Saiyans could change their power levels while attacking, Radditz wouldn't have freaked out when Goku and Piccolo did it agaisnt him.

Vegeta only became able to suppress his power level and increase it when he learned to control his Ki after his defeat on Earth.

Just curious, how do you explain Vegeta's Galic Gun being able to match Goku's Kaio-Kenx3 Kamehameha?

The same way I explain Gohan being able to fight Vegeta a little after that. Fighters lose power as they battle. They spend energy, they get wounded, they take damage. All this drains their power and diminishes their top power as the battle goes on.

Gohan was able to fight Vegeta because Vegeta had already lost a great deal of power. Goku's Kaio-Kenx3 Kamehameha couldn't overcome Vegeta's attack because Goku was already seriously hurt by the strain of a form of Kaioken that he couldn't really handle. Its a mistake to think that his power at that moment had to be exactly the same as his top unhurt and unspent power times three.

So, for example, if Goku's use of the Kaioken had hurt him enough to drop his "base" power to around 5.000 (a 3.000 reduction, more or less) and assuming that Vegeta was also hurt by the Kaioken attacks to drop his power by 3.000 to 15.000, at that moment Goku's Kaioken x3 would more or less coincide with Vegeta's power. And this is a mere a example, I'm not saying that they lost exactly 3.000 or something like that.

[Kakashi]

Reccome, Burter and Jiece are all at 40,000

[RandomGuy96]

I have Recoome at 37,000.

[Kamiccolo9]

I have Recoome at 37,000.

Yep. That works fine for me as well. I'm debating whether or not to have Jeice and Burter at the same level, or slightly higher than that, though. I'm kinda partial to Jeice having the highest battle power of the three of them.

[RandomGuy96]

I have Jeice at 40,000. I see power level as a measure of your offensive power (evidenced by it going up significantly whenever someone charges an attack), and I think Jeice should have the largest offensive power of the three since I think his specialty is ki attacks. Like this:

Recoome-
--Offense- 37,000
--Defense- 42,000
--Speed- 36,000

Burter-
--Offense- 38,000
--Defense- 38,000
--Speed- 45,000

Jeice-
--Offense- 40,000
--Defense- 36,000
--Speed- 37,000

Vegeta's Final Crash- 44,000

That hit would've messed up Jeice pretty badly had it connected, but Recoome was able to receive minimal damage. He didn't even feel a lot of pain from it, likely because of his weird alien biology. Their bodies also factor into their attributes; Jeice is a small weedy guy, so his durability is the lowest, while Recoome is a big tough bulky guy, so his speed is the lowest.

[Kamiccolo9]

That makes sense. What makes you put Burter's offensive skills higher than Recoome's?

[RandomGuy96]

No particular reason; it just looks neater on PL lists for Burter to have a higher power level for me. Not that it really matters though; Recoome doesn't have a lot of impressive offensive feats. He defeated Vegeta pretty quick, but I don't think his hits were doing more damage to Vegeta than, say, Goku's were to Freeza. Another example of this system:

Grade II Trunks-
--Offense- 1,250,000,000
--Defense- 1,000,000,000
--Speed- 700,000,000

Initial Perfect Cell-
--Offense- 1,125,000,000
--Defense- 1,125,000,000
--Speed- 1,125,000,000

Nappa-
--Offense- 4,000
--Defense- 6,000
--Speed- 4,000

Android 18-
--Offense- 260,000,000
--Defense- 300,000,000
--Speed- 260,000,000

Certain fighters also have a psychic "stat", separate from their other stats. Form most fighters, this stat would be zero. For certain fighters, like the Ginyu Force's Guldo, it's high:

Guldo-
--Offense- 5,000
--Defense- 5,000
--Speed- 4,000
--Psychic Power- 36,000

Chiaotzu-
--Offense- 610
--Defense- 550
--Speed- 610
--Psychic Power- 3,000

Kaioshin-
--Offense- 1,200,000,000
--Defense- 8,000,000,000 (nah just kidding)
--Speed- 1,200,000,000
--Psychic Power- 5,400,000,000

[Kamiccolo9]

No particular reason; it just looks neater on PL lists for Burter to have a higher power level for me. Not that it really matters though; Recoome doesn't have a lot of impressive offensive feats. He defeated Vegeta pretty quick, but I don't think his hits were doing more damage to Vegeta than, say, Goku's were to Freeza. Another example of this system:

Grade II Trunks-
--Offense- 1,250,000,000
--Defense- 1,000,000,000
--Speed- 700,000,000

Initial Perfect Cell-
--Offense- 1,125,000,000
--Defense- 1,125,000,000
--Speed- 1,125,000,000

Nappa-
--Offense- 4,000
--Defense- 6,000
--Speed- 4,000

Android 18-
--Offense- 260,000,000
--Defense- 300,000,000
--Speed- 260,000,000

Fair enough. I seem to remember doing something similar with Semi-Perfect Cell in my ill-fated minimalist power levels list.