Super Saiyan 4 Pants

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It still doesn't make sense. It's not a magical technique, so it seems like they discovered it by chance.

[hleV]

Special can just mean a different type of magic. You can't simply say it doesn't make sense only because it's under a category of special (which you know nothing about).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Special is special, magic is magic.

[hleV]

Yes. And nothing says special can't create clothes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, but clothes that already exist, with Goten & Trunks having no idea about? How does that make sense, again?

[hleV]

Why do they need to know about Metamorian clothes? It's the technique itself that creates them, all Goten and Trunks have to do is perform the dance.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But why does it create these clothes, and not other clothes? Clothes are artificial things, not natural.

[hleV]

Well, if fusion isn't natural, but developed like you suggest, then I really don't see why they wouldn't develop the technique in a way that leaves the fusion clothed.

When Metamorians created this special technique, they made it so it would give that specific set of clothes. It's that simple.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It still doesn't make sense to me.

[vince90x]

Well does SS4 come before SSG?

[Kamiccolo9]

Well does SS4 come before SSG?

Nope. SSJG appeared in the new movie, which is set over a decade before the time period in which GT is supposed to take place.

[Zephyr]

Is the fusion dance ever actually stated to be "magical" in nature, or is that just an accepted fan assumption?

[Kamiccolo9]

Is the fusion dance ever actually stated to be "magical" in nature, or is that just an accepted fan assumption?

Fan assumption.

[Steven Perry]

SSJ4 must be a 'magical' transformation, which explains why clothing is manifested and Goku is in an adult form when he attains it- unlike other SSJ transformations which are 'physical'. There's the physical and magical layers of existence in the DB world, and a character can draw abilities from both realms, with some preferring one over the other or a combination of both (like Buu). SSJ4 is different from other SSJ transformations because it needs Bruits Waves, and maybe these waves are the source of...

[Zephyr]

Is the fusion dance ever actually stated to be "magical" in nature, or is that just an accepted fan assumption?

Fan assumption.

Then if that's true, the fusion dance gives the users a new set of clothes without necessarily being magic. Why should the materialization of clothes be considered a magic thing, and not just some form of ki manipulation? If that's the point in the entire series where you can no longer suspend your disbelief, I don't think this is the right series for you.

And if you want to take the route of thinking of "well it HAS to be magic if new clothes are spawned!" then you should also take the route of thinking that SSj4 has magical properties because of the clothes spawning. And that really wouldn't be as much of implausible leap in logic as many people think. It's the highest, most powerful combination of two different Saiyan transformations, why the hell can't it allow Saiyans to scrape the bottom of the realm of magical abilities? It would b no more of a jumping of the shark than Goku being an alien. Or aliens more powerful than the gods. Or robots more powerful than those aliens. Or there being more than one Super Saiyan after all of the legend hype. Or there being more levels of Super Saiyan. I could go on.

[Steven Perry]

...magic itself, much like Midi-chlorians are the source of The Force in Star Wars? =/ (Don't know much about Star Wars so it could be the wrong comparison) If the fusion dance imparts the clothing of it's originators whenever it's used, then maybe the same could be said for SSJ4; the form was originated magically by another Saiyan before Goku, perhaps the 'Legendary Super Saiyan'? Vegeta's SSJ4 clothing may not be the same as Goku's, but then again Gotenks' fusion clothes were not the same as Gogeta's.

[Kamiccolo9]

Deleted

[Zephyr]

...magic itself, much like Midi-chlorians are the source of The Force in Star Wars? =/ (Don't know much about Star Wars so it could be the wrong comparison) If the fusion dance imparts the clothing of it's originators whenever it's used, then maybe the same could be said for SSJ4; the form was originated magically by another Saiyan before Goku, perhaps the 'Legendary Super Saiyan'? Vegeta's SSJ4 clothing may not be the same as Goku's, but then again Gotenks' fusion clothes were not the same as Gogeta's.

Suppose that when two beings use the fusion dace, the technique, through ki, forces the atoms and molecules on a microscopic level to combine and re-materialize as the generic fusion clothes. Then, suppose that when one becomes a SSj4, the atoms and molecules of the shredded clothes rearrange and re-materialize as similar clothes, possibly based on the user's emotions, will, or ki signature. Maybe SSj4 just has that extreme degree of control of things through ki.

[hleV]

Then if that's true, the fusion dance gives the users a new set of clothes without necessarily being magic.

If you checked out the Daizenshuu 7-Special Attack Dictionary, you'd see that quite often techniques under the category of special seem very magical. Basically they often seem to do things that in our world would be considered magic. So there's absolutely no problem with a special technique generating a specific set of clothes.

Why should the materialization of clothes be considered a magic thing, and not just some form of ki manipulation?

Because Fusion is under the category of special, not sorcery. Either we go "fuck you, Daizenshu", or special can create clothes, just like sorcery.

Saiyan transformations are under ability. Perhaps Dende restoring everyone's power, which is also an ability, may be considered somewhat magical, but we're talking about Saiyan transformations. They transform the body and grant more power, never generate clothes. Until SS4, that is. That's why it's so weird.
TBH, I don't really care much about SS4, my point was to explain that body transformation and clothes generation are completely different things, and that Fusion clothes generation is completely fine in-universally.
For SS4, I highly doubt the makers were going by in-universe logic when deciding to make it produce clothes. I'm not gonna say it cannot be explained logically, though.

[Jackal puFF]

Forget the pants how does Goku turn into an adult when he does it? While Vegeta doesn't change one bit.. Yeah that's a thinker.