Nail And The Ginyu Force

[RandomGuy96]

The problem with giving a high stat to characters like that is it wouldn't really change much in terms of bloating. You'd still have to give the character who beat that other character up a high power level, justifying why the character's defensive stat didn't help 'em there.

[Kamiccolo9]

The problem with giving a high stat to characters like that is it wouldn't really change much in terms of bloating. You'd still have to give the character who beat that other character up a high power level, justifying why the character's defensive stat didn't help 'em there.

True, but it's not too hard to work around that. Mental state effecting ki, difference in defending against ki and physical attacks, whether the character is grounded or in midair... with enough stretching, it's usually possible to make things work.

[TheGmGoken]

The problem with giving a high stat to characters like that is it wouldn't really change much in terms of bloating. You'd still have to give the character who beat that other character up a high power level, justifying why the character's defensive stat didn't help 'em there.

I actually made a stats thread. I think it could work. It's just VERY VERY complex. Specially since the main factor is power levels.

[RandomGuy96]

True, but it's not too hard to work around that. Mental state effecting ki, difference in defending against ki and physical attacks, whether the character is grounded or in midair... with enough stretching, it's usually possible to make things work.

Maybe, but at that point is seems kind of reaching and kinda misses the point of some scenes. For example, when Cell barley budged from a full force kick to a vital area, the point was to say "Look how strong Cell is", not "Vegeta's not at full power".

[Kamiccolo9]

True, but it's not too hard to work around that. Mental state effecting ki, difference in defending against ki and physical attacks, whether the character is grounded or in midair... with enough stretching, it's usually possible to make things work.

Maybe, but at that point is seems kind of reaching and kinda misses the point of some scenes. For example, when Cell barley budged from a full force kick to a vital area, the point was to say "Look how strong Cell is", not "Vegeta's not at full power".

I'm also fairly certain that the author never intended anyone to look very deeply into this stuff

And while I'd never use this type of reasoning in an actual discussion, if I was working on a BP list with set rules, like I was a while back, any explanation is fair game. Only for those lists, though.

[RandomGuy96]

I'm also fairly certain that the author never intended anyone to look very deeply into this stuff

Yeah, that's a good point. But from a basic, reading perspective, Perfect Cell tanking a kick was most likely meant to impress the reader, and make the reader think Cell's strong.

[Kamiccolo9]

I'm also fairly certain that the author never intended anyone to look very deeply into this stuff

Yeah, that's a good point. But from a basic, reading perspective, Perfect Cell tanking a kick was most likely meant to impress the reader, and make the reader think Cell's strong.

Yeah, I agree. Which is why I said in the second part of my post, that I would hardly ever use long torturous explanations in an actual discussion. Those are just for power level lists where I'm imposing limits on myself. For example, I tried one where the base Saiyans never passed 10 million, so I had to come up with some fancy double talk to explain away some stuff. (It was working too, until 50% Goku had to mess everything up )

Generally, though, Toriyama makes it pretty obvious who is stronger.

[Kakashi]

37,000 is too low

40,000 fits perfectly

[Kamiccolo9]

37,000 is too low

40,000 fits perfectly

37,000 works fine. There's nothing that Recoome did that couldn't be done by someone at 37,000.
40,000 works as well though.

[TheGmGoken]

37,000 is too low

40,000 fits perfectly

It's only fits perfectly because you want it to. I have Rikum around 36 to 39 thousand.

[Kakashi]

37,000 is too low

40,000 fits perfectly

37,000 works fine. There's nothing that Recoome did that couldn't be done by someone at 37,000.
40,000 works as well though.

Why would Toriyama use that number? He overall uses main numbers like 10,000 or 30,000 so it makes sense for Reccome to be at 40,000 and besides it's more supported than 37,000

Vegeta said he was treated like a baby and I doubt Reccome would be below 40,000

The gap between Reccome to Vegeta should not be smaller than the one Vegeta had on Cui

[Kamiccolo9]

37,000 is too low

40,000 fits perfectly

37,000 works fine. There's nothing that Recoome did that couldn't be done by someone at 37,000.
40,000 works as well though.

Why would Toriyama use that number? He overall uses main numbers like 10,000 or 30,000 so it makes sense for Reccome to be at 40,000 and besides it's more supported than 37,000

You mean like Vegeta being at 18,000? Or Goku at 8,000? Or Kui at 18,000? Or Dodoria at 22,000? Or Zarbon at 23,000? Or Nappa being at 4,000? Or Goku at 416? Or Piccolo at 1,330?
Tell me again how often he uses "main numbers."

And no, it's not. If Goku and Piccolo can take hits from Raditz while only being a third of his strength, and can hurt him with their attacks, then Vegeta at 30,000 can take hits from and hurt Recoome at 37,000.

[Kakashi]

37,000 is too low

40,000 fits perfectly

37,000 works fine. There's nothing that Recoome did that couldn't be done by someone at 37,000.
40,000 works as well though.

Why would Toriyama use that number? He overall uses main numbers like 10,000 or 30,000 so it makes sense for Reccome to be at 40,000 and besides it's more supported than 37,000

You mean like Vegeta being at 18,000? Or Goku at 8,000? Or Kui at 18,000? Or Dodoria at 22,000? Or Zarbon at 23,000? Or Nappa being at 4,000? Or Goku at 416? Or Piccolo at 1,330?
Tell me again how often he uses "main numbers."

And no, it's not. If Goku and Piccolo can take hits from Raditz while only being a third of his strength, and can hurt him with their attacks, then Vegeta at 30,000 can take hits from and hurt Recoome at 37,000.[/quote]

I mean that if Toriyama had Vegeta at 30,000 so Reccome should be 40,000 and a step above him

They never hurt Raditz except their attacks and their attacks were about even with Raditz

I know it's non canon but in the Anime King Kai says that the Ginyu Force are 5X stronger than Goku which probably means Vegea Arc Goku and that makes them 40,000

[Kamiccolo9]

I mean that if Toriyama had Vegeta at 30,000 so Reccome should be 40,000 and a step above him

They never hurt Raditz except their attacks and their attacks were about even with Raditz

I know it's non canon but in the Anime King Kai says that the Ginyu Force are 5X stronger than Goku which probably means Vegea Arc Goku and that makes them 40,000

You mean like Goku being at 416 and Raditz being at 1,500 (or 1,200, whichever you go for)? Or Kui, Dodoria, and Zarbon, being at 18, 22, and 23 thousand while Vegeta was at 24,000? You're making up trends that never existed in the manga to support your position.

Which supports Recoome being at 37,000. Vegeta was able to slightly injure him, so he probably wasn't that far ahead of him.

You're bringing in anime quotes? Provide a clip with the quote before you use it. And even so, it's the anime. There's a reason we typically don't use anime power statements.

[Hitiro]

What Kamiccolo said, we don't use anime quotes because that isn't what the original author intended. For instance, I doubt Akira Toriyama intended Mr. Popo to be able to fight off to SSJ kids. That is extremely outlandish. Also, the anime messes up feats by characters by making them stronger or weaker than they should be. Like Vegetto picking Boohan apart without SSJ. A lot of people say it is possible, personally I think he needed SSJ otherwise why would Akira have turned him into a SSJ in straight away in the manga? Also, the whole SSJ3 Goku managing to dodge all of Bootenks attacks, as if SSJ3 Goku could put up a fight against a warrior with the power of Evil Boo and Gotenks.

[RandomGuy96]

He didn't doge Buutenks' attacks. I think he doded once while Buutenks was screwing around, then Buutenks tanked his pathetic attempt at an offense and kicked him around without trying.

[Saiga]

I use Ginyu's comment about Goku being able to school them at 60,000 as my primary basis, and try not to rank them too low because of that. I think they're 45,000 at least, maybe even 50,000. If they were 40,000 or lower I think Ginyu's estimation would be completely inaccurate.

[Kamiccolo9]

I use Ginyu's comment about Goku being able to school them at 60,000 as my primary basis, and try not to rank them too low because of that. I think they're 45,000 at least, maybe even 50,000. If they were 40,000 or lower I think Ginyu's estimation would be completely inaccurate.

That seems a bit high to me. Vegeta shouldn't have even been able to scratch Recoome if he was that much higher than him.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah, ditto. That should be a tanking and one-shot gap. And I don't think a 75% gap or an 83% gap (!!!) should be enough to speed blitz and one-shot someone. I think Ginyu's estimation is only accurate if the Ginyus are 40,000 or lower.

[Hitiro]

I use Ginyu's comment about Goku being able to school them at 60,000 as my primary basis, and try not to rank them too low because of that. I think they're 45,000 at least, maybe even 50,000. If they were 40,000 or lower I think Ginyu's estimation would be completely inaccurate.

That seems a bit high to me. Vegeta shouldn't have even been able to scratch Recoome if he was that much higher than him.

How so? In terms of battle power differences I think a 13,000 gap between them is fine.. I think you are forgetting that Ki blasts are usually multiples of the users battle power. PIccolo's Makankosappo was 3 times more powerful than his actual battle power.