Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
They barely have any time but that's where the RoSaT comes in, right?
And freaked out or not, for whatever reason that may be, that's still nowhere near what's needed to even hold a candle against Boo. From what I gather, he's surprised at how those two squirts can be so powerful at their age. And with them being the last remaining Saiyans, that's more than enough of a reason to think of them as their best and last hope.
And Piccolo's huge gains have long been shadowed by every Saiyan's even more huge gains.
Toriyama-sama wrote:They barely have any time but that's where the RoSaT comes in, right?
And freaked out or not, for whatever reason that may be, that's still nowhere near what's needed to even hold a candle against Boo. From what I gather, he's surprised at how those two squirts can be so powerful at their age. And with them being the last remaining Saiyans, that's more than enough of a reason to think of them as their best and last hope.
And Piccolo's huge gains have long been shadowed by every Saiyan's even more huge gains.
Yeah Piccolo's gains are huge. It's funny you have to mention the ROSAT because you don't like how a bunch of kids are already so powerful they dwarf Piccolo and are already close to Gohan. The Daizenshuu even says so. Your point is moot.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
With or without a "zenkai", Goku and the other Saiyans' powers did in fact skyrocket way past Piccolo's, as much as it hurts me to say it, seing how I love Piccolo (believe me when I say I wished he had a more active role in fights in the second half of Z). But sadly he hasn't
Which is not to say he can't stonger be than the kids (who, again, already display an impressive strength for their age).
Toriyama-sama wrote:With "zenkai" or not, Goku and the other Saiyans' powers did in fact skyrocket way past Piccolo's, as much as it hurts me to say it, seing how I love Piccolo (believe me when I say I wished he had a more active role in fights in the second half of Z). But sadly he hasn't
Which is not to say he can't stonger than the kids (who, again, already display an impressive strength for their age).
None of the Saiyans base forms match Piccolo. Saiyans big gains come from their transformations now a days. After Goku's 33x increase, no Saiyan gain was ever close to that. Piccolo's Cyborg arc gain to fight Gero was bigger than that as he is compared to a SSJ after he was clocked at over 1,000,000 before hand. The boys continually shock everyone and seeing how stressed Gohan and Vegeta were at dodging and blocking them shows they can't evade the boys easily. Sure they can win by actually fighting back. But for the Boys to make it so hard for them to block and avoid them means they aren't as far off as everyone thinks.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:It's funny you have to mention the ROSAT because you don't like how a bunch of kids are already so powerful they dwarf Piccolo and are already close to Gohan. The Daizenshuu even says so. Your point is moot.
What does one thing have to do with the other? The RoSaT is available, there's no denying that. They actually use it
And I've already mentioned what I think about the Daizenshuu quote (assuming it is true).
If you don't want to take SSJ into consideration, you can't take Piccolo's fusions either.
Anyways, I'm missing the point of this debate. Are you saying Piccolo's gains are constantly superior to anyone else's? If so, he would eventually be the strongest. Which he isn't since Vegeta and Trunks finished their first round at the RoSaT.
Last edited by Toriyama-sama on Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
408, actually... well sort of. That's what Raditz read him at, but certain things like the V-Jump power level for King Piccolo and the Weekly Jump level for Goku highly suggest he was more around 900 instead.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:408, actually... well sort of. That's what Raditz read him at, but certain things like the V-Jump power level for King Piccolo and the Weekly Jump level for Goku highly suggest he was more around 900 instead.
I don't like the boys being that strong, but they are. I can link to the D7 quote if anyone wants it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I don't like the boys being that strong, but they are. I can link to the D7 quote if anyone wants it.
May as well.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Sorry it was D2 under Goten. Scroll down in the link.
A gifted child who mastered Super Saiyan at a young age.
By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
ABED wrote:The fact that Goku and Vegeta had children after they turned Super Saiyan is likely the reason it was so easy for Goten and Trunks to transform, and didn't have the required anger
That's your opinion, not a fact. The official explanation is because they belong to the tailless generation of Saiyan Halflings.
Wait. Where does that officially come from?
Daizenshuu 4 & 7.
Daizenshuu 4 wrote:The tailless second generation are super ultra child prodigies.
Saiyan genes have an extraordinarily good compatibility with Earthling blood. Because of this, when the two races are mixed together children with formidable power are born. Particularly, those Halflings born without tails hide an exceptional battle power.There are many things that they naturally master from a young age, such as the ordinarily arduous transformation into a Super Saiyan. In spite of having such an outstanding battle sense, they do not have a fondness for battle like a pure Saiyan. Instead, it seems that the violent temperament of the Saiyan has been relaxed through their Earthling blood.
Daizenshuu 7 (Goten) wrote:A boy filled with energy, just like his father. He loves Gohan, calling him "big bro, big bro", and the two often play together. He prefers play to study. Even without training, he is able to transform into a Super Saiyan.
Daizenshuu 7 (Future & Present Trunks) wrote:The Trunks from the tragic future is serious and dutiful. Meanwhile, the one in the present is extremely different, being obstinate and full of bravado. He has surprising power for a child, including being able to transform into a Super Saiyan without even training, and managing to hit his father Vegeta once.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Toriyama-sama wrote:And Goten didn't seem on par with Gohan at all, much like Trunks didn't seem on par with Vegeta either.
Gohan was literally scared of Goten, and Goten was a great sparring partner for him as well. We also see Gohan sweating from blocking all of Goten's hits.
As for Vegeta, Trunks was hitting him so uncontrollably (to the point that he hit Vegeta), that Vegeta was forced to hit him.
There is definitely not a 2 times difference between base Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Toriyama-sama wrote:And Goten didn't seem on par with Gohan at all, much like Trunks didn't seem on par with Vegeta either.
Gohan was literally scared of Goten, and Goten was a great sparring partner for him as well. We also see Gohan sweating from blocking all of Goten's hits.
As for Vegeta, Trunks was hitting him so uncontrollably (to the point that he hit Vegeta), that Vegeta was forced to hit him.
There is definitely not a 2 times difference between base Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku.
It was a moment and you are trying to extrapolate their total strength from it. It's completely different if they had been in a real fight.
Gohan punched the crap out of Freeza and knocked him flat for a few seconds, but that in no way implies Gohan was anywhere close to Freeza's strength.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:It was a moment and you are trying to extrapolate their total strength from it. It's completely different if they had been in a real fight.
He do see Gohan & Goten sparring evenly, and Trunks touching Vegeta is counted as a feat by Daizenshuu 7. Not to mention that Goten & Trunks are implied to be stronger than #18 & Piccolo. And there is also the Daizenshuu statement that states that Goten & Gohan are equals... which even though was contradicted, it does confirm us that their powers are not very far.
ABED wrote:Gohan punched the crap out of Freeza and knocked him flat for a few seconds, but that in no way implies Gohan was anywhere close to Freeza's strength.
Gohan had a rage boost, so he was close to Freeza.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
