Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Toriyama-sama
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by Toriyama-sama » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:10 pm
Why shouldn't he be? It's clearly stated, not inferred from something else
Don't see how it's a plot hole. Characters are as strong as the writers want them to be, and base Goku is stronger than base Rildo, who's said to be stronger than Majin Boo (presumably Chibi Boo, but the point would still stand even if they meant the weakest Boo).
Not unreasonable at all considering what we saw throughout DBZ.
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Dr. Machismo
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by Dr. Machismo » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:49 pm
I don't like either overall (although Super Saiyan 4 looks really cool), seeing as the amount of Super Saiyan forms should have ended with level 3. I might dislike the Super Saiyan God even more as I find the everyone simply having to give their energy to Goku so he can become this omnipotent being to win stupid.
The world's greatest.
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Zephyr
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by Zephyr » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:06 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Lumping SSj God into the same tier as SSj Vegetto and SSj4 seems the least assumptive to me.
But there is also Goku's comment, which implies that SSG Goku is on a different level from Super Vegetto.[/quote]
Ah true. Well in that case I would have to place SSj God above SSj4.
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DannyDBZfanforever
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by DannyDBZfanforever » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:44 pm
Super Saiyan 4 by the notions of the manga is blasphemy. But it is more visually cool than SSGod Form (SSJGod Form looks like a Kaio-O-Ken enhanced with Super Saiyan Aura Bonus). Those reddish tones and the very aspect (base saiayn - Oozaru - super saiayn) are excellent. The designers of TOEI did a great job in drawing the SS4, the problem is the logic of the transformation (and logic and history of the animated series itself) that stinks to 100%.
Visually designed - Super Saiyan 4 is the most beautiful.
Combat effectiveness - Super Saiyan God (powerlevel)
More logical in the history of the series / manga - SSGod >> SS4
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:56 pm
Kaio-O-Ken
Why you write it like this? Not to mention the "O" was Not needed. The Kaio makes the KAI O sound. With the extra "O" it's more like KAI-O-Oken. Which sounds retarded
the problem is the logic of the transformation
HOW is SSJ4 not logically? Combine SSJ with Great ape? Actually few times GT had logic.
SGod Form (SSJGod Form looks like a Kaio-O-Ken enhanced with Super Saiyan Aura Bonus).
SSG GOD looks NOTHING like Kaioken.
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Birusu16
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by Birusu16 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:10 pm
Visually - I prefer SSJG. I like that the design is simplistic and not over the top. I also love the badass crimson aura Goku has.
Power - I'd say it's SSJG by a large margin. It's stated that SSJ Vegito might be stronger than SSJ4 and SSJG is a higher realm of power than SSJ Vegito, which likely means SSJG is far stronger and thus I'm inclined to say he's considerably stronger than SSJ4 as well.
Better overall - Probably SSJ4. It has no time limit and it can be achieved by a single saiyan rather than the 6 it takes for SSJG.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:23 pm
Finally someone ( TheGmGoken ) here take into account the Beyond Limits SSJ4. Nobody here takes Beyond Limits SSJ4 into account and the worst of all is that he exists in GT and is more than 12 times stronger than regular SSJ4. Regular SSJ4 is on par with Super Vegetto.
Beyond Limits Kakarotto SSJ4 is a very very strong being.
SSJ4 is one of my favorites transformations.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:28 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Goku isn't as strong as GT claims him to be. It's a plot-hole.
Why is a plot hole? Kakarotto training with a sparring partner like Oob, the gains can be huge!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:31 pm
Beyond Limits SS4 Goku is just SS4 Goku + SS Gohan, Goten & Trunks. He isn't many times stronger than SS4 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:37 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Beyond Limits SS4 Goku is just SS4 Goku + SS Gohan, Goten & Trunks. He isn't many times stronger than SS4 Goku.
3x stronger seems to work for me. Which is a BIG increase at this point. Funny SSJ4 can do what SSG is REQUIRED To do. Perhaps a SSJ4 SSG anyone xD.
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MDSTSSJ
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by MDSTSSJ » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:46 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Beyond Limits SS4 Goku is just SS4 Goku + SS Gohan, Goten & Trunks. He isn't many times stronger than SS4 Goku.
Yes he is and that's how I see it:
x10 Kamehameha do nothing on Yi Xing Long and that's one of the reasons I believe Yi Xing Long is at least 10 times stronger than regular SSJ4.
Beyond Limits SSJ4 is way stronger than Yi Xing Long as we saw. Super Yi Xing Long ( fused with 6 Dragons where only one is quite powerful and the other 5 are not strong enough or are very weak ) is 10 times stronger than Beyond Limits SSJ4.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:55 pm
Toriyama-sama wrote:Why shouldn't he be? It's clearly stated, not inferred from something else
Don't see how it's a plot hole. Characters are as strong as the writers want them to be, and base Goku is stronger than base Rildo, who's said to be stronger than Majin Boo (presumably Chibi Boo, but the point would still stand even if they meant the weakest Boo).
Not unreasonable at all considering what we saw throughout DBZ.
We never saw anyone in DB or DBZ getting 400 times stronger without near-death power-ups, transformations, merging, or getting their dormant power drawn out. Goku did none of these, and he also doesn't seem to be able to make significant gains, since he barely managed to surpass SS2 Gohan from Cell Games in Super Saiyan 2, and he is implied to be at around the same level he was in Boo arc during the 28th TB. Not to mention that GT (and the anime in general) has weird shit like Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku = SS4 Vegeta >>> SS Goku > SS Vegeta > Oozaru Vegeta.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:02 pm
. Not to mention that GT (and the anime in general) has weird shit like Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku = SS4 Vegeta >>> SS Goku > SS Vegeta > Oozaru Vegeta.
Correction it goes
Gogeta > Base Goku > Ape Vegeta > SSJ4 Goku > Base Goku > SSJ4 Vegeta > Base Goku > SSJ3 Goku > Base Goku > SSJ Goku > Rildo >Base Goku > That sword guy, Think his name was Lergraic > BAse Goku > Base Goku Z > Everyone else.
Seriously WTF
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Stark the lone wolf
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by Stark the lone wolf » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:08 pm
SSJ4 Goku (Shadow dragons and super 17 saga)>>>>the gods of destruction>>SSJG Goku>>>>>SSJ4 Goku (Baby saga)
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:11 pm
Stark the lone wolf wrote:SSJ4 Goku (Shadow dragons and super 17 saga)>>>>the gods of destruction>>SSJG Goku>>>>>SSJ4 Goku (Baby saga)
Got any reason to support that?
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KentalSSJ6
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by KentalSSJ6 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:35 pm
For sake of argument I'm just gonna list Beyond Limits SSJ4 as End of GT SSJ4. We do it with SSJ3 Goku so well do it with SSJ4.
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Toriyama-sama
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by Toriyama-sama » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:51 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:We never saw anyone in DB or DBZ getting 400 times stronger without near-death power-ups, transformations, merging, or getting their dormant power drawn out. Goku did none of these, and he also doesn't seem to be able to make significant gains, since he barely managed to surpass SS2 Gohan from Cell Games in Super Saiyan 2, and he is implied to be at around the same level he was in Boo arc during the 28th TB. Not to mention that GT (and the anime in general) has weird shit like Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku = SS4 Vegeta >>> SS Goku > SS Vegeta > Oozaru Vegeta.
That means absolutely nothing and I will keep my stance on the issue, because there is no definitive fact that can back what you're saying and simultaneously deny what GT clearly indicates.
Yes, GT was inconsistent, but it seems rather obvious that no DBZ villain can keep up with base GT Goku. Whatever the reasons there may be, DBZ characters have indeed, at times, increased their powers by such ridiculous amounts that it's no longer reasonable to assume it won't happen again. Goku trained extremely hard with Boo's reincarnation, for years! That's got to deliver some really good results.
Besides, most things in Dragon Ball are not objectively quantifiable (it would seem they were left like that on purpose) and you can't just come up with completely random numbers while at the same time disregarding the parts you like less, because I could do the exact opposite without being any less right.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:54 am
no DBZ villain can keep up with base GT Goku.
Super Boo= Gotenks
SuperBoo - Gohan
Super Vegetto is PERHAPS stronger than SSJ4 Goku."
So we can might even say Super Boo can beat base Goku. So that statement is wrong.
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Toriyama-sama
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by Toriyama-sama » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:10 am
TheGmGoken wrote:no DBZ villain can keep up with base GT Goku.
Super Boo= Gotenks
SuperBoo - Gohan
Super Vegetto is PERHAPS stronger than SSJ4 Goku."
So we can might even say Super Boo can beat base Goku. So that statement is wrong.
When I said "villains" I was thinking of their true forms, that being Freeza's final form, Cell's super perfect form and Pure Boo. Anyway, SSJ should be more than enough to take out every form of Boo.
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TheGmGoken
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by TheGmGoken » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:12 am
When I said "villains" I was thinking of their true forms, that being Freeza's final form, Cell's super perfect form and Pure Boo. Anyway, SSJ should be more than enough to take out every form of Boo.
But you said base which isn't enough. Thus making your statement wrong. Also you made it seem like any villain not just their "true form". Since DBGT count the movies would that include Janemba as well?
