How strong is Base Vegetto?

[Kakashi]

General consesnus seems to be either

Base Vegito = Buutenks

Base Vegito = Mystic Gohan

Base Vegito = Buuhan

Question is which ones seems most accurate.

Base Vegetto ~ Ultimate Gohan makes the most sense IMO. Vegetto never even tried to fight Gohan-Boo and went SSjin immidietly. That's because Gohan-Boo is much stronger IMO. There are people who put him below Ultimate Gohan

[rereboy]

I do agree that Vegetto needed SSJ to humiliate Boo, though. Otherwise there would be no point in going straight to that form in the manga.

I'd say it's mostly out-universe reasons for Vegetto going SS (wouldn't be as cool if he fought in base). Regarding in-universe, Vegetto going SS in the manga right off the bat and later telling that he didn't know he could own Boo so easily doesn't imply that SS was really needed (whereas in the anime, base Vegetto owns Boo but still needs to go SS afterwards). There are other points I can't be bothered to provide, just saying that people tend to ignore important details and just look at the fact that Vegetto transformed.

Even if its mainly for out of universe reasons, those reasons molded what happened in the story. Toriyama might have made Vegetto go SSJ right from the get go for the cool factor, but, in doing so, he made Vegetto's base not enough to humiliate Buu or, at least, implied so in-universe.

Its never implied anywhere that Gokhan would be inferior to Vegetto, ever.

Other than the fact that unlike Goku & Gohan, Goku & Vegeta are rivals?

Kaioshin stated that being rivals helps the fusion be stronger, but when does he state that their rivalry boost is enough to compensate the difference in power between Gohan and Vegeta? Because Gohan is WAY stronger than Vegeta.

I'm not denying that Vegetto has a rival boost, I'm simply saying that nowhere is it stated that the rival boost produces more power than the difference of power between Gohan and Vegeta.

Vegetto doesn't explicitly say he doesn't need SSJ though. There is a 50 times gap between his base and SSJ form.

Can't tell if you completely missed my point or just trolling again. If SS Vegetto didn't realize his power (at first, at least), it means he didn't realize his base power as well, which means that him going SS was not necessarily needed.

At which point, there's no reason for him to remain in SSJ form. Realizing that he could take care of Buu without difficulty with just his base, why doesn't he just revert back to humiliate him further without any added risk? IMO, it only makes sense if he at least thought it would be hard to win with just his base. If he thought it would still be easy, he has no reason to keep using SSJ.

[Kaboom]

Speaking seriously, I would think that Vegetto chose to go Super Saiyan right off the bat to play it safe, and probably needed it in order to beat Boo... but just didn't realize right away how much of an advantage he'd truly have. Like, if Boo's a 1, then with Super Saiyan Vegetto may have ended up at 10 when he expected to be at 5. So like he said, while he fully expected to be able to beat Boo, he didn't expect him to be so utterly helpless.

[rereboy]

General consesnus seems to be either

Base Vegito = Buutenks

Base Vegito = Mystic Gohan

Base Vegito = Buuhan

Question is which ones seems most accurate.

If I had to guess, I would put him somewhere between Gohan and Buutenks. Closer to Buutenks than to Gohan.

Speaking seriously, I would think that Vegetto chose to go Super Saiyan right off the bat to play it safe, and probably needed it in order to beat Boo... but just didn't realize right away how much of an advantage he'd truly have. Like, if Boo's a 1, then with Super Saiyan Vegetto may have ended up at 10 when he expected to be at 5. So like he said, while he fully expected to be able to beat Boo, he didn't expect him to be so utterly helpless.

At which point, like I said, he has no reason to keep using SSJ.

[hleV]

Toriyama might have made Vegetto go SSJ right from the get go for the cool factor, but, in doing so, he made Vegetto's base not enough to humiliate Buu or, at least, implied so in-universe.

Am I to assume that you're one of those people that don't deal in important details and just look at the bigger picture? Goku was planning to go SS when he fuses (with Gohan, but I don't think that matters) and the Elder Kaioshin told him to do that after fusing and not before. That's what Vegetto did. Only to realize that he's way more powerful than expected. But that's after he went SS. Base Vegetto could be anywhere from much weaker to much stronger than Boo.

At which point, like I said, he has no reason to keep using SSJ.

He has no reason to revert to base neither.

[Kaboom]

At which point, like I said, he has no reason to keep using SSJ.

Well, with the numbers I used to demonstrate, he'd still have to keep using it. His base form would only be about 1/5 as strong as Boo.

Even if that wasn't the case and his base form was stronger than Boo, then the case would still be "why not?" Whether to guarantee a win with minimal risk, or to humiliate Boo as part of his plan to get absorbed, it's still more advantageous for Vegetto to fight as a Super Saiyan.

[rereboy]

Toriyama might have made Vegetto go SSJ right from the get go for the cool factor, but, in doing so, he made Vegetto's base not enough to humiliate Buu or, at least, implied so in-universe.

Am I to assume that you're one of those people that don't deal in important details and just look at the bigger picture? Goku was planning to go SS when he fuses (with Gohan, but I don't think that matters) and the Elder Kaioshin told him to do that after fusing and not before. That's what Vegetto did. Only to realize that he's way more powerful than expected. But that's after he went SS. Base Vegetto could be anywhere from much weaker to much stronger than Boo.

At which point, like I said, he has no reason to keep using SSJ.

He has no reason to revert to base neither.

What I mean is something like this:

Toriyama made SSJ's hair light colored in the manga so that he didn't have to ink it. It was a decision, based on out of universe reasons, that molded what happened in the series. It made all SSjs have blond hair.

So, yes, its entirely possible that Toriyama may have made Vegetto go SSJ right away for the cool factor. But by doing so he molded the story by at least implying that Vegetto had some need for SSJ.

And I disagree that he had no reason to revert. It would serve to humiliate Buu (look, I can even beat you without SSJ!) while making Buu not so helpless, even if he still didn't have a chance. Not to mention that, as far as I remember, we never see a Saiyan in the series choosing to use and continuing to use SSJ without a specific reason when he could have won easily with just his base.

At which point, like I said, he has no reason to keep using SSJ.

Well, with the numbers I used to demonstrate, he'd still have to keep using it. His base form would only be about 1/5 as strong as Boo.

Even if that wasn't the case and his base form was stronger than Boo, then the case would still be "why not?" Whether to guarantee a win with minimal risk, or to humiliate Boo as part of his plan to get absorbed, it's still more advantageous for Vegetto to fight as a Super Saiyan.

My argument is only valid if Vegetto's base still allowed him to win without difficulty. Any other case, and he has a reason to stay in his SSJ form.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Vegetto doesn't explicitly say he doesn't need SSJ though. There is a 50 times gap between his base and SSJ form.

Can't tell if you completely missed my point or just trolling again. If SS Vegetto didn't realize his power (at first, at least), it means he didn't realize his base power as well, which means that him going SS was not necessarily needed.

I understood your point, I'm just saying this doesn't mean he doesn't need Ssj.

[hleV]

So, yes, its entirely possible that Toriyama may have made Vegetto go SSJ right away for the cool factor. But by doing so he molded the story by at least implying that Vegetto had some need for SSJ.

The out-universe reason doesn't make Vegetto need SS to beat Boo, unless you're dismissing important in-universe details.

And I disagree that he had no reason to revert. It would serve to humiliate Buu (look, I can even beat you without SSJ!) while making Buu not so helpless, even if he still didn't have a chance. Not to mention that, as far as I remember, we never see a Saiyan in the series choosing to use and continuing to use SSJ without a specific reason when he could have won easily with just his base.

Boo was getting humiliated. Do you honestly believe that at this point Boo would give a damn in which form the opponent is? I personally can't accept that as a valid argument. As long as Vegetto's winning, there's no difference in which form is he.

I understood your point, I'm just saying this doesn't mean he doesn't need Ssj.

So you understood my point, yet felt the need to write a completely useless post?

[rereboy]

The out-universe reason doesn't make Vegetto need SS to beat Boo, unless you're dismissing important in-universe details.

Directly, no. But by introducing the fact that Vegetto chose to go SSJ right away, if we look at it from a in-universe perspective for a explanation, we conclude that it at least implies that Vegetto had some need of his SSJ form.

We can explain it by saying that he made a mistake by underestimated his own power and thinking that he needed to go SSJ, when he didn't need it, but then we would have to explain why he chooses to stay in his SSJ form after that, and that's trickier.

We can say that he just didn't see the point in reverting, but considering that he was disappointed at how helpless Buu was, it would make sense for him to revert, not only to continue to humiliate Buu, but also to have a fight not so incredibly one-sided, even though he was still confident that he would win.

Overall, I think it would make more sense for him to choose to revert than to remain in SSJ if he thought that he could still win without much trouble just with his base.

Boo was getting humiliated. Do you honestly believe that at this point Boo would give a damn in which form the opponent is? I personally can't accept that as a valid argument.

Yes, he would. Buu has Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo in him. He knows perfectly well just how big a difference there is between base and SSJ forms, he knows that a SSJ1 is 50 times stronger than he was with just his base. Vegetto showing him that he could beat him with just his base, would be something like showing him that he could beat him just using one arm. He was already being humiliated, but that would be even more humiliating.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I understood your point, I'm just saying this doesn't mean he doesn't need Ssj.

So you understood my point, yet felt the need to write a completely useless post?

Umm no, your first post fails to mention that Vegetto doesn't explicitly say that he didn't need to transform. The notion that such a basic statement is being used to try and back up base Vegetto being stronger than Buuhan is weak argument at best. That's the point of my post.

[KentalSSJ6]

Gotta love these Oozaru/hleV debates. Its like they are Kanzenshuu's residential Goku and Vegeta with how much they go back and forth.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gotta love these Oozaru/hleV debates. Its like they are Kanzenshuu's residential Goku and Vegeta with how much they go back and forth.

Pretty much. I honestly don't know what his problem is though. I'm not openly rude to him sooooooo...

[Rocketman]

We can say that he just didn't see the point in reverting, but considering that he was disappointed at how helpless Buu was, it would make sense for him to revert, not only to continue to humiliate Buu, but also to have a fight not so incredibly one-sided, even though he was still confident that he would win.

Overall, I think it would make more sense for him to choose to revert than to remain in SSJ if he thought that he could still win without much trouble just with his base.

Vegetto could be equal to or a little stronger than Gohan-Buu in base, but that's not strong enough to actually threaten/damage/kill Buu.

[FoolsGil]

Well, some people would say SSJ Vegetto is equal in strength to SSJ4 Goku, take that pl and divide by 50.

[rereboy]

We can say that he just didn't see the point in reverting, but considering that he was disappointed at how helpless Buu was, it would make sense for him to revert, not only to continue to humiliate Buu, but also to have a fight not so incredibly one-sided, even though he was still confident that he would win.

Overall, I think it would make more sense for him to choose to revert than to remain in SSJ if he thought that he could still win without much trouble just with his base.

Vegetto could be equal to or a little stronger than Gohan-Buu in base, but that's not strong enough to actually threaten/damage/kill Buu.

Yeah. In that case, he has a reason to stay in SSJ. IMO, like I said, I think his power at base is somewhere between Gohan and Gotenks-Buu, or somewhere between Gotenks-Buu and Gohan-Buu, or even around Gohan-Buu but never high enough to beat Gohan-buu with just his base without difficulty, because otherwise I think he would just use his base agaisnt Buu in the manga (either when he formed or later on).

[hleV]

You're saying that Vegetto chose to stay SS, as if he even bothered to think about something like that. It's not about Vegetto choosing to stay SS, it's about Vegetto not being bothered to revert because it makes absolutely no difference for him (in case he's stronger than Boo in base, that is).

[rereboy]

You're saying that Vegetto chose to stay SS, as if he even bothered to think about something like that. It's not about Vegetto choosing to stay SS, it's about Vegetto not being bothered to revert because it makes absolutely no difference for him (in case he's stronger than Boo in base, that is).

I've already addressed this. You believe that Vegetto just didn't bothered, that he thought "meh, whatever" or didn't think at all. I just happen to believe that it would be more likely for him to revert to base than doing that (if his base can beat Buu easily), due to it being even more humiliating to Buu and because it would be more fun to Vegetto to do that than it would to continue the fight in a form 50 times stronger than the form that could already beat Buu without trouble.

[hleV]

Humiliating Boo was not what Vegetto wanted to do. He wanted to show Boo his superiority so Boo would absorb him. And succeeded.

Umm no, your first post fails to mention that Vegetto doesn't explicitly say that he didn't need to transform. The notion that such a basic statement is being used to try and back up base Vegetto being stronger than Buuhan is weak argument at best. That's the point of my post.

My first post didn't fail to mention anything that needed to be mentioned. You said you understood my point, but apparently you didn't (otherwise you wouldn't have replied). I said that Vegetto saying that he didn't know he could own Boo so easily simply means that at first he didn't know his full power, neither base nor SS. That's why there's no 100% proof that Vegetto needed SS to begin with. That's my whole point.

[rereboy]

Humiliating Boo was not was Vegetto wanted to do. He wanted to show Boo his superiority so Boo would absorb him. And succeeded.

He wanted Buu to feel helpless so that he would resort to absorption. One of the ways he did that (besides being so much stronger than him) was by humiliating him, which is why Vegetto kept taunting him and even started fighting him with just his legs at one point (which is a perfect example of Vegetto limiting himself to have more fun and to continue to humiliate Buu until he used his absorption).

By the way, showing Buu how much superior he is, falls right in line with reverting to base and kicking his ass just with base. That would have demonstrated how superior he was even more effectively than just using his legs to fight. Unless he couldn't do it just with his base.