Is Dragon Ball a misogynist series?

[kei17]

Well I guess we shouldn't allow food in anything in case someone on a diet is reading, watching etc. And really what's wrong with sexy?

Yeah, to me, it sounds as dumb as saying that you should not show characters drooling over meats and fish because vegetarians are also watching/reading the series.

[Fionordequester]

Alright you just took that to a weird place.

Sex is a thing that happens. Getting freaked out because a culture has a higher tolerance threshold of nudie mags is a thing that is silly. The most important thing a person can learn from traveling or studying other cultures is that morals are dogshit.

Tell that to single moms, who got pregnant in high school and have to work 18 hours a day just to break even. Or worse yet, women who had to give up their child to adoption because they couldn't possibly take care of them. Seriously, all it takes is one mistake to mess up someone's life for the next 10-20 years.

Well I guess we shouldn't allow food in anything in case someone on a diet is reading, watching etc.

That's different. Food is something someone can't possibly avoid. Nothing much to be done about that.

And really what's wrong with sexy?

Nothing. It's a careless attitude towards sex itself that's the problem. I mean, let's get one thing clear here, sex is beautiful, wonderful, and life enriching, but ONLY if you do it in a way that's sure not to bite you in the rear later on (and I don't count protection since that can fail even when you use it perfectly).

Why are people not allowed to show a little skin and look good?

Walking around in your underwear, or exposing your bare breasts like Bulma does 2-3 times is not "a little skin".

Why is it such a crime for someone to throw in a little fanservice? What are we Amish?

It's useless at best, and destructive at worst. Again, it feeds into a careless attitude about sex.

[Ringworm128]

If they're dumb enough to get knocked up it's their fault not the show, comic etc. This sounds awfully similar to the whole "games make kids violent" BS.

[kei17]

Bulma should not walk around in her underwear because she looks sexy that way? So you say female characters should always hide their skin though male characters often fight almost naked. That's what I call sexism.

I'm pretty sure Toriyama didn't let her stay that way for any kind of fan-service. She is just depicted as vulgar.

[Fionordequester]

If there dumb enough to get knocked up it's their fault not the show, comic etc. This sounds awfully similar to the whole "games make kids violent" BS.

Would you say they were careless for getting knocked up? If so, are you going to argue that having a high tolerance for nudie mags would do anything but hurt their chances of being careful?

This isn't just me having my own beliefs btw. This is something I'm saying as someone who's almost achieved his Psychology major. And while the "Video games make people violent" thing has been proven to be either false or true only to a very limited extent, pornography and other such things has been positively correlated with increased irresponsible actions. For those wondering what "correlated" means, it means there's not a PROVEN connection, but there's certainly some evidence there since irresponsible acts seem to rise and fall as acceptance of pornography rises and falls (with Japan being the only exception in the list of countries studied, oddly enough).

Bulma should not walk around in her underwear because she looks sexy that way? So you say female characters should always hide their skin though male characters often fight almost naked. That's what I call sexism. I'm pretty sure Toriyama didn't let her stay that way for any kind of fan-services. She is just depicted as vulgar.

The reason there's a problem is that she does it so often, and to be exploited for the sake of crass humor. That's different than just looking sexy.

And that's why I say Dragon Ball Z got better about that. That was indeed totally in character for Bulma, wasn't dwelled on too long, and was pointed out as stupid by Krillin. I never said she shouldn't walk around in her underwear. My point was that she displayed some of those attitudes that Akira and many others have for that brief scene.

[Ringworm128]

People aren't that stupid, I've seen countless suggestive material since I can remember and I wouldn't have sex without a condom. If someone gets knocked up without preparing it's because they didn't think it through or because they weren't informed.

[Fionordequester]

People aren't that stupid, I've seen countless suggestive material since I can remember and I wouldn't have sex without a condom.

I'm sure you wouldn't. And I'm sure most of us wouldn't. But not everyone is that smart, nor is Sex Ed taught properly to everyone. And while tightening up people's attitudes obviously won't suddenly cure the problem, it's sure to help, as I've learned in my studies.

[Ringworm128]

So ruin the fun for everyone because of a few idiots?

[Fionordequester]

Exactly. I know you're not saying what you're saying out of any sense of malice or anything so much as it is me being a bit better educated about this than most (speaking as a Psychology major), but if I have to choose between the future's of even ONE human being over a ton of other people having a brief moment of entertainment from a panel or so, I know what I'd choose.

EDIT: And let's be clear here, sex is a ton of fun. I know that, you know that, most everyone knows that. It's in our nature. But that doesn't mean it should be treated lightly.

[Ringworm128]

I see where you're coming from but I don't believe someone will go out and get knocked up because of something they saw on TV. And if they were that dumb they would have probably ruined their life anyway. Also you could probably say the same about pretty much anything even slightly on the radar. We might as well make every show like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLW2cxsj8Vw

[Fionordequester]

I see where you're coming from but I don't believe someone will go out and get knocked up because of something they saw on TV

http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/show ... ost8170840

There's a section on there stating the correlation between rape statistics and pornography statistics in various U.S. states as well as other countries. That said, it's a correlation only, and in fact, there are alternative suggestions. For example, if the country was misogynistic and cruel to women to begin with? Well naturally it should follow that the men there won't have any issues with pornography whether it was bad or not! And hey, Japan is an exception, even if it is the ONLY one. So horrible attitudes could be the CAUSE of the mushrooming of porn, and not the other way around...

But if you're any kind of person who is writing for as large an audience as the DBZ one, are you really going to want to take that chance?

EDIT: ANd of course, I THINK this goes without saying, but I'm NOT calling fans of porno mags rapists!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLW2cxsj8Vw

Cutting fanservice out isn't going to turn a show into unrelatable garbage with no edge, like that clip was. Heck, as I keep saying, Dragon Ball Z was fine on this, in SPITE of the occasional cheese, and it's all because THAT show handled it tastefully...usually!

[Ringworm128]

I mean that if you're gonna take out fanservice for that reason you might as well take out violence, swearing, drugs, arguing, smoking etc in case someone is influenced by them. And if there's a high area of rape it's because there's a high level of sicko's who would have done it anyway. It really is like those people who go "yep he played violent video games, that's the reason".

[Cold Skin]

I think women are depicted like what a child considers them, and perhaps how men often claim to see their wives/girlfriends: those "weird" beings called girls that don't have the same interests than boys (in this series: fights), and will sometimes be bossy and say "do this, do that, stop playing games or enhancing your motorcycle and take the trash out!!".

Of course, those are not necessarily reality, but I think Toriyama just likes to play on clichés a lot, whether it's clichés on mangas, women, men... And things that are often used as sort of jokes in our society are women being more complicated than men and hard to understand sometimes, being the "real boss in the house" who gets frightening when she says "do this, do that", being inexplicably in a bad mood sometimes, being smart and subtle when men are all about muscle (like Chichi giving Krilin the idea to go and meet Bulma in the anime and saying the guys definately can't seem to use their brains instead of focusing on the fight itself), being more worried about their children when fathers are more laid back like the "good buddy" and the one the little child will see as "the guardian of the family" or more simply "my cool hero" while they will see the mother as "the one who takes care of my health and my future"...

I think it has nothing to do with treating women this way or that way, I think it's just that Toriyama likes to push some clichés to the extreme in a playful way, to create interesting and more entertaining situations.

But women are shown to have strong points too (again, you may consider those as truth or clichés): they are able to tame even the wildest warriors, "Beauty and the Beast style" (Bulma tamed Vegeta through years), will ultimately recognize who would be their true love based on who cares about them rather than who's the "cute boy of the class" (C-18 obviously really cares about Krilin as he fulfills that role, which is the way he had an opening with her but also what made her smile at him when he saved her and her daughter in the 2008 special), can be the ones who have the right thoughts and words to calm down people's anxieties by pointing them the most important things and keep them grounded on the essential stuff (Chichi reassuring Trunks that he did the right thing and that he shouldn't overcomplicate things), can change their usual behavior and master their pulsions when it makes sense (Chichi not forbidding Goku to train Gohan and kindly explaining him what he'll have to do in exchange, which surprises and obviously touches Goku's heart), are able to change their behavior to match the father's absence and take care of their family no matter what (Chichi becoming more tolerant and less strict once Goku's dead, trying to be the balance that the both of them were), be geniuses beyond anyone else (Bulma accomplished feats that no one in the world and perhaps the universe accomplished, like the Dragon Radar - although one other being was seen being able to re-build her radar, but that being is quite unique himself), etc...

[Fionordequester]

I mean that if you're gonna take out fanservice for that reason you might as well take out violence, swearing, drugs, arguing, smoking etc in case someone is influenced by them. And if there's a high area of rape it's because there's a high level of sicko's who would have done it anyway. It really is like those people who go "yep he played violent video games, that's the reason".

It's not so much that I want all of that GONE. Heck, that's even worse, because then you're just plain shielding yourself from life. It's that I want those topics to be treated with the seriousness that they deserve. Dragon Ball Z, for example, has violence in it, but it's never glorified in any way, hence, it's treated with the seriousness it deserves (aside from the whole WE CAN BRING EVERYBODY BACK! thing). And to go along with Cold Skin, I like the women characters too!

[Ringworm128]

But I don't see the harm in joking around lightly with things. Heck, that's what makes humor so great, it let's you see things in a lighter way. And it's also the whole point of humor.

[Fizzer]

My first reaction, before thinking about it properly, would be that, yes, Dragon Ball is sexist. I'd say it's a product of it's time and if it was created in 2013, in the UK or US, there'd be uproar. There are widespread claims that Doctor Who and Supernatural are sexist (all I can see is that the main characters happen to be male), so Dragon Ball wouldn't stand a chance, when early on every time a female character is introduced, you already know she's going to be sexually humiliated for the sake of comedy. There are also many more male than female characters in Dragon Ball, but that's just because Toriyama finds it harder to draw new female characters than male ones, or he'd have wanted to make more women (I don't remember where I read that, but I think it's from an interview). This is one of the few things I'd change if I made Dragon Ball. Some characters might be completely gender-bent or replaced to address the imbalance, and characters like Chichi, 18 and Videl would have larger roles in action. Chichi could have sought training under Master Roshi and actually put up a decent fight against Goku in the 23rd TB for example.

However, when I look deeper, I become less sure. The women in Dragon Ball are strong, independent, three-dimensional characters, more than some of the men who are sort of just air-headed fighters. As The Monkey King said, Bulma is an incredible character. She remained headstrong and worked for years in an apocalyptic, hopeless world, and used her intelligence alone to save the Earth AND a parallel Earth. She's the main "scientist character" in the story, and the most intelligent character in the series, the only possible competition coming from gods and other scientists, which is a role more commonly held by a man in fictional media. The most revolutionary thing about Bulma for me, though, is that she was "slutty and proud" DECADES before that was cool or the concept had hit mainstream media at all.

I can't think of a single marriage or relationship in Dragon Ball in which the female is submissive. Gohan and Videl's relationship seems pretty balanced, while in most of them the woman is clearly in charge. Even Vegeta, the Proud Prince of Saiyans (TM), does what his wife tells him to. Again, when I think of a relationship in Dragon Ball, it's usually the woman who's the breadwinner. Chichi brings the money, Bulma brings the money, #18 brings the money. In the cases of Chichi and Bulma, it is just that they happen to be filthy rich, but they're still providing while their partners/husbands aren't.

I think men are actually more stereotypical than women, in Dragon Ball. It does depict that pretty much all men are pervy, like porn, will try to look up a girl's skirt if presented with the opportunity, and so on. This is also just played for humour though. Can the gag where Master Roshi sees Bulma's boobs and has an explosive nose-bleed be misogynistic when it's Roshi, and not Bulma, who clearly has the character "flaw" that is making this thing happen? It's a "men are perverts" joke, which seems pretty acceptable coming from Toriyama, a self-confessed pervert. It does also have an aspect of immature, "boobs are funny" humour, but Dragon Ball has just as much "willies are funny" as it does "boobs are funny".

To sum up, I think Dragon Ball does show that it's a product of it's place and time, but I actually think it's quite socially progressive, and I don't think you should take the jokes, or anything in Dragon Ball, too seriously.

[rereboy]

Dragon Ball is manga directed to young male audience. Of course women won't have that much relevance.

If the main theme is fighting, is only natural that almost all of the fighting cast is male, and, since its directed to a young male audience, it naturally doesn't have much romance, and themes like perverts, female nudity and such are treated more like a joke than a real thing.

That doesn't make misogynist because its never a manga that takes those things seriously.

[Kakarot88]

I find the video games at least to be somewhat misogynistic cuz [cant remember which exact game] three of the female leads Super moves are to have men come and help them lol
Gohan swoops in for Videl
17 teams up with 18
And Giru or Gill helps Pan
I can't remember what Kid Chi Chi and Arales super moves are in those Tenkaichi games and I know Zangyas is a solo as is Fasha's ...but STILL the main females of the series have men of robots come help them for their special attack
(That's pretty bad IMO)

[Blade]

It's not so much that I want all of that GONE. Heck, that's even worse, because then you're just plain shielding yourself from life. It's that I want those topics to be treated with the seriousness that they deserve.

I don't see how they're not. Vegeta did care about Bulma, despite his unaffectionate outward displays towards her. Trunks may have been born a bastard child, but this was out of a consensual affair, and furthermore Vegeta actually appears to be a caring father, even if perhaps outwardly cold towards Trunks save for a few moments of emotion. I fail to see how this sets a bad example to young people, especially as the details of the act itself are implicit at best and would likely go over the head of anyone too young to understand. Toriyama is in no way irresponsible for not providing a play-by-play explanation for younger people, and if it's the depiction of a child being born out of a stable relationship that you think sets a poor example, then I think you're perhaps somewhat out of touch with a reality that a lot of children who watch the show are already living, and have an understanding of a heck of a lot better than some dumbed-down, ham-fisted and, quite frankly, patronising explanation would provide.

Dragon Ball Z, for example, has violence in it, but it's never glorified in any way, hence, it's treated with the seriousness it deserves

Hardly. To Goku and Vegeta a fight is nothing more than an enjoyable experience from which they seek to test and better their abilities. Nine times out of ten they only fight because they love the challenge, and on the tenth instance when the world being at risk is their primary concern, they're still loving every minute of the battle. In Dragonball life, death and serious consequence are merely companions by association to the ultimate 'gameification' of martial arts and combat, where it's considered normal to allow two little kids with limited emotional comprehension of the situation to fight a monster that has just committed genocide against the human race in a high-stakes battle merely because their father wanted them to have a go at saving the world.

[rereboy]

Exactly. I know you're not saying what you're saying out of any sense of malice or anything so much as it is me being a bit better educated about this than most (speaking as a Psychology major), but if I have to choose between the future's of even ONE human being over a ton of other people having a brief moment of entertainment from a panel or so, I know what I'd choose.

EDIT: And let's be clear here, sex is a ton of fun. I know that, you know that, most everyone knows that. It's in our nature. But that doesn't mean it should be treated lightly.

Just because someone is incredibly stupid, way beyond the norm, other people shouldn't have to pay the price for their stupidity. Allowing that is called censorship. Or do you think that the censorship that existed in the past is any different than basically what you are saying? Censorship has always existed because someone took offense at the content, because someone thought that the content would be bad somehow. And you are basically defending that notion, I believe.

There will always be someone out there who might take offense at something, that might twist something harmless into something hurtful, that will do some stupid shit that no one else would think of, no matter what we do. And you are basically arguing that we should allow much more censorship because it might stop a few of those stupid people. That is not a good reason to allow censorship. At all.

If we followed that notion, then, if some stupid kid with severe problems killed someone and said that he got the idea from a videogame that had guns, then we would censor all the videogames with guns? How does that make sense..? Its not the videogames fault that the kid is stupid and has problems. If videogames didn't exist he might end up doing some other stupid thing or hurt other people down the road all the same.

In fact, I remember a few years back that a kid jumped out of his apartment window because he believed that he could fly like in the cartoons he watched. Lets ban all those cartoons? Censor the cartoon to make it even more obvious that people don't fly in real life? . Its not the cartoons' fault that the kid was abnormal compared to the millions and millions of kids that watch cartoons and don't jump out of windows.

Allowing censorship in the name of a obviously doomed battle (since there will always be stupid people doing stupid shit) is the wrong mentality.

The case with Dragon Ball is the same.