Is Dragon Ball a misogynist series?

[rereboy]

No, DB is homophobic because both of its gay characters are negatively stereotyped caricatures, with one being a woman hating hyper feminine clean freak mass murderer and the other being an inappropriately dressed pedophile joke character. How was that so hard to understand?

I would classify it as improperly stereotypical towards homosexuals for the sake of humor. Homophobic is different.

[TheGmGoken]

No, DB is homophobic because both of its gay characters are negatively stereotyped caricatures, with one being a woman hating hyper feminine clean freak mass murderer and the other being an inappropriately dressed pedophile joke character. How was that so hard to understand?

Just curious but do you know what homophobia is? Thats stereotyped not homophobic. Thats like saying Db is racist cause of how dark the black or African people along with their big lips. Stereotypes doesn't mean homophobic

[Rocketman]

they expect men to be superior fighters because they usually are in reality.

No, they aren't. Not only is the difference in physical strength far, far less than it is commonly made out to be, but greater physical strength means precisely dick in how good of a fighter you are.

Men are more commonly fighters, yes (due to various social, political and a tiny smattering of environmental conditions), but they are not inherently superior fighters.

People think physical strength makes better fighters because they've been told men are superior fighters because they are stronger. It's circular reasoning.

All of which still ignores that 1. even if all men were physically stronger than all women it wouldn't matter in DB because of ki and 2. a Saiyan woman would be far, far physically stronger than a Earthling man.

Why the hell should the author go out of his way to have more female fighters anyway?

Why do you thinking making more female fighters is "going out of his way"? Does it take more effort to draw a woman?

unnecessary sense of equality

You think equality is unnecessary?

[TheGmGoken]

What I think he means by unessnary equality is people bitching over things not needed to be bitching on. Yes Db is mostly male...so the fuck what. Please explain why its bad to have male characters being main focus and females being background. What about series thats all female and disrespect men? I bet they aren't accused of sexism. Go watch Highschool of dead, Desert punk, Highschool DxD, or Heaven lost property and then say Db is sexist.

[rereboy]

No, they aren't. Not only is the difference in physical strength far, far less than it is commonly made out to be, but greater physical strength means precisely dick in how good of a fighter you are.

There's a reason why in every form of competitive martial art women aren't grouped up with men and it has nothing to do with political or social reasons. Its simply because women have a physical disadvantage compared to men and so its viewed as unfair to group men and women together. Nobody is saying that some women wouldn't be able to compete with the men, but its not really fair because that disadvantage exists.

And actually, when everyone trains as hard as they can, to the top of their capabilities, having a physical disadvantage compared to people that also train as hard as they can makes all the difference in the world. That's basically why the humans become irrelevant compared to the Saiyans actually, despite the fact they they are much stronger than any regular human. So your argument about greater physical strength meaning dick when everyone trains to insane degrees doesn't really hold up. It actually makes all the difference.

Why do you thinking making more female fighters is "going out of his way"? Does it take more effort to draw a woman?

He would be going out of his way because he would have to consciously go agaisnt the expectations of the audience and the typical and natural tendencies of the genre of manga he was writing.

(And now that you mention it, Toriyama actually stated once that he finds women harder to draw than men, I believe).

You think equality is unnecessary?

If you actually read carefully what I write you would notice that I said equality regarding fighting. No such thing exists between man and women and there's also no need to have it in a manga at all. Its not discriminatory towards women to imply that men are usually stronger fighters. The only real advantage that could come of it would be perhaps a more varied rooster of characters. That's it.

[Cursed Lemon]

No, they aren't. Not only is the difference in physical strength far, far less than it is commonly made out to be...

The current female squat record is 804 lbs. The current male squat record is 1,268 lbs.

Come on, man, let's not be ridiculous about this.

[EXBadguy]

I strangely find myself coming back to this thread and I need to start getting away. FAST! Seems people still don't understand that it is what it is now.

The current female squat record is 804 lbs. The current male squat record is 1,268 lbs.

Come on, man, let's not be ridiculous about this.

OWNED!

[Rocketman]

There's a reason why in every form of competitive martial art women aren't grouped up with men and it has nothing to do with political or social reasons.

Mm, are you sure about that? Just look at all the whining recently in the US when women were allowed to go on active combat duty.

A whole hell of a lot of our preconceived notions are based on bullshit invented to justify male(/white/European/Christian/etc) dominance. "Women are inherently weaker so they can't be as good of fighters as men" is just as much bullshit as "Japanese have squinty eyes so they can't be as good of pilots as Americans" or "blacks have differently-shaped skulls so they're stupid and need to be enslaved".

He would be going out of his way because he would have to consciously go agaisnt the expectations of the audience and the typical and natural tendencies of the genre of manga he was writing.

And if there's one thing Toriyama never, ever does, it's subvert expectations.

Its not discriminatory towards women to imply that men are usually stronger fighters.

You're right, it isn't. But that's not what Dragonball does.

The current female squat record is 804 lbs. The current male squat record is 1,268 lbs.

Come on, man, let's not be ridiculous about this.

That is the very highest extreme of the spectrum, not valid to apply to the entirety. Unless you want to argue that all men can lift 400 pounds more than all women can.

[Insertclevername]

So it's so ridiculous for women to be on par with men but it isn't when children like Gokuu and Gohan can square off with adults. It's a fantasy. They don't even rely on pure physical strength in the majority of the series anyway since it's all about ki.

[RandomGuy96]

I like how "women are physically weaker than men" continues to be used as an excuse when ki is metaphysical, resulting in things like 5'9 Goku one-shotting 7 foot tall muscle-bound freaks twice his size, or King Piccolo losing to a kid that doesn't even come up this knee caps, or five year old Gohan smacking around the insanely buff and large Nappa.

[TheGmGoken]

So it's so ridiculous for women to be on par with men but it isn't when children like Gokuu and Gohan can square off with adults. It's a fantasy. They don't even rely on pure physical strength in the majority of the series anyway since it's all about ki.

No its not ridiculous since 18 did JUST THAT. So did Videl, Chi, and Ran Ran. I don't see what's people issue. Dbz has shown strong women. Db has women beating males. So why the FUCK is this a debate

[TheMightyOzaru]

Skill means nothing if you're much stronger in Dragon Ball so the logic of pure strength being the deciding factor applies here. However, the notion that females cannot be naturally stronger in fiction is a bit absurd, especially in Dragon Ball since power doesn't derive from muscle, it's derived from Ki.

[Cursed Lemon]

That is the very highest extreme of the spectrum, not valid to apply to the entirety. Unless you want to argue that all men can lift 400 pounds more than all women can.

I don't know if that's really the point.

Anyone who trains can out-muscle anyone who doesn't train.

Men are physically larger and more powerful than women, that's just a fact of physiology. It doesn't matter in the realm of fiction, sure, but here in the real world it's the truth, and a factor that colors a lot of peoples' perceptions - perceptions that transfer over to what they like to see in entertainment.

[Zephyr]

inappropriately dressed pedophile joke character.

Where is it ever stated or implied that 28th Tenkaichi Budokai Rob Halford had a sexual inclination towards prepubescents?

[rereboy]

Mm, are you sure about that? Just look at all the whining recently in the US when women were allowed to go on active combat duty.

A whole hell of a lot of our preconceived notions are based on bullshit invented to justify male(/white/European/Christian/etc) dominance. "Women are inherently weaker so they can't be as good of fighters as men" is just as much bullshit as "Japanese have squinty eyes so they can't be as good of pilots as Americans" or "blacks have differently-shaped skulls so they're stupid and need to be enslaved".

Armed combat has nothing to do with purely martial arts or unarmed combat. A female with a good tactical mentality and a good grasp on weaponry is worth a lot more than a dozen brutes physically stronger than her but with poorer tactical mentality and a poorer grasp on weaponry. Also, there's no guarantee that if those women weren't in the military, that there would be extra men replacing them, so it doesn't make sense not to have women. Extra soldiers is always a good thing from a military point of view.

I'm not saying that preconceptions don't exist, but women having a physical disadvantage isn't really one of them.

And if there's one thing Toriyama never, ever does, it's subvert expectations.

When there's a point to subverting expectations, its actually a good thing. Dragon Ball was good at being original in many things and subverting some expectations, but there was a point to them. But what exactly would be the point of having more female fighters? Perhaps a more varied cast of fighters? That's pretty much all the reasons I can think of. Having more female fighters due to a notion that it would be fair to have more female fighters simply because the quantity of male fighters versus female fighters in not very balanced doesn't really make sense.

You're right, it isn't. But that's not what Dragonball does.

Dragon Ball has a wide range of women and their personalities. Bulma, Mai, #18, Bulma's mom, Chichi, Videl and Lunch are all very different from each other and have distinct and almost always strong and independent personalities. Dragon Ball also allows mixed combats in tournaments proving than in their world women are allowed to compete with men, implying that they can be very strong and that they have no problem in mixing them with the men. We see female characters becoming as strong as invincible old masters (ChiChi compared to Roshi) and even stronger than Super Saiyans (#18).

However, Dragon Ball doesn't dwell on female fighters as much as male characters. This is due to a combination of the audience expectation, the genre of manga, the author's preference and no big advantage in doing the opposite, and not due to any kind of discrimination or ill will towards women.

Also, every single sexual situation is played for laughs in typical and stereotypical male fantasy fashion, actually making men usually look worse than the women by making their pervert tendencies very apparent.

That's what Dragon Ball does.

I like how "women are physically weaker than men" continues to be used as an excuse when ki is metaphysical, resulting in things like 5'9 Goku one-shotting 7 foot tall muscle-bound freaks like Recoome, or King Piccolo losing to a kid that doesn't even come up this knee caps, or five year old Gohan smacking around the insanely buff and large Nappa.

Ki is metaphysical and yet the Saiyans leave all the humans behind simply because they are Saiyans.

Yeah, that pretty much nullifies your argument that things like physical differences don't matter in Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball, as a manga, could have been made so that those things really didn't matter and it could ignore whatever audience expectation that might exist. The author chose not to due to multiple factors that I've already mentioned. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Skill means nothing if you're much stronger in Dragon Ball so the logic of pure strength being the deciding factor applies here. However, the notion that females cannot be naturally stronger in fiction is a bit absurd, especially in Dragon Ball since power doesn't derive from muscle, it's derived from Ki.

Like I said, physical differences matter, otherwise the Saiyans wouldn't leave everybody else behind just because they are Saiyans.

Its true that Dragon Ball could have followed a different path but the author chose this one and there's nothing really wrong about it.

[RandomGuy96]

Where is ever stated or implied that 28th Tenkaichi Budokai Rob Halford had a sexual inclination towards prepubescents?

He obviously had an attraction to Trunks, who was what, 17 at the 28th? Okay, not quite technically a pedophile, but still a stereotypical creepy old pervert type.

Ki is metaphysical and yet the Saiyans leave all the humans behind simply because they are Saiyans.

Yeah, that pretty much nullifies your argument that things like physical differences don't matter in Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball, as a manga, could have been made so that those things really didn't matter and it could ignore whatever audience expectation that might exist. The author chose not to due to multiple factors that I've already mentioned. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And the big buff Saiyan is left in the dust by the smaller less buff Saiyan.

No it doesn't. Their muscles have nothing to do with their power, it's because their Saiyan genetics are better at gathering ki for whatever reason due to zenkais and the Super Saiyan forms. Giving a female these abilities would not at all be related to their lack of physical strength on average compared to men.

And if real life strength suddenly matters, then should no kid in this series ever fight? How did Gotenks fight Super Buu? After all, Super Buu is over eight feet tall and pretty lean and muscular, while Gotenks barley comes up to his kneecaps.

[Zephyr]

Where is ever stated or implied that 28th Tenkaichi Budokai Rob Halford had a sexual inclination towards prepubescents?

He obviously had an attraction to Trunks, who was what, 17 at the 28th? Okay, not quite technically a pedophile, but still a stereotypical creepy old pervert type.

IIRC, he was 8 in the Buu arc, and the 28th TB was 10 years later. That'd make him 18.

[TheGmGoken]

I honestly dont see how this proves Db as misogynist or homophobic. More stereotypical which is NOT the samr thing. Not even close.

[Kamiccolo9]

Where is ever stated or implied that 28th Tenkaichi Budokai Rob Halford had a sexual inclination towards prepubescents?

He obviously had an attraction to Trunks, who was what, 17 at the 28th? Okay, not quite technically a pedophile, but still a stereotypical creepy old pervert type.

IIRC, he was 8 in the Buu arc, and the 28th TB was 10 years later. That'd make him 18.

Isn't the age one is considered an adult 20 in Japan?

[rereboy]

And the big buff Saiyan is left in the dust by the smaller less buff Saiyan.

No it doesn't. Their muscles have nothing to do with their power, it's because their Saiyan genetics are better at gathering ki for whatever reason due to zenkais and the Super Saiyan forms. Giving a female these abilities would not at all be related to their lack of physical strength on average compared to men.

And if real life strength suddenly matters, then should no kid in this series ever fight? How did Gotenks fight Super Buu? After all, Super Buu is over eight feet tall and pretty lean and muscular, while Gotenks barley comes up to his kneecaps.

Humans are different from Saiyans in Dragon Ball. Their body is different. They can turn Oozaru and they can have zenkais and they can turn Super Saiyan. These are all things specifically linked to their race and to their bodies, not to the soul.

Therefore, physical differences exist and matter.

This is not a matter of being completely realistic but giving a good experience to the viewers. Having the less buffed character be stronger can be something agaisnt the audience expectation, but it also follows a specific point of not being the most obviously strong looking character the strongest, something that Toriyama does fairly often with various benefits for the narrative.

Toriyama also does that with Chichi and 18 by making them look not menacing but being pretty strong at their appearance, #18 much more so, even stronger than the super saiyans of the time. He just doesn't do this more often with female characters because he chose to not deviate that much from the shonen genre tendencies and the audience expectation in that regard. Nothing wrong with that.

He obviously had an attraction to Trunks, who was what, 17 at the 28th? Okay, not quite technically a pedophile, but still a stereotypical creepy old pervert type.

Besides Trunks being basically an adult (I think he was already 18) that character could have been in his twenties for all we know.