Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Hellspawn28]

I'm rootinf for Kold since day 1. Just curious when you read this what voices do you hear?

Funi voices since those are the voices that I'm used too. Same goes with Marvel and DC comics where I read with the 90's voice cast.

[RandomGuy96]

How is he not dead yet? And Goku still thinks Bardock can win despite Cold being over 1.5 times stronger after going 100%? Despite Cold already being strong enough to stomp Bardock around the planet before powering up?

Oh whatever. This fight made no sense anyway; nothing related to Cold in DBM has. I've just turned off my brain and enjoyed the good art and decent choreography.

And that probably would be the case, since his second form is around Freeza's 100% already.

Funny thing here. If Cold was using around 3% of his power or so like Freeza was, and was already a bit above Freeza in his second form, that'd make him 33 times stronger than 16... which would actually match-up to the around x100 jump between Freeza's second form and 100% power.

Again, what bothers me the most about Cold is just how unnecessary all this canon violation is. Cold still could've transformed and beat these opponents. He didn't need to be 16 level for any of these fights, you could just give him a final form and still keep his power consistent with the manga. But then Salagir wouldn't be able to bloat Bardock like he wanted to I guess, so...

Whoa, seriously? I guess I completely forgot the part where they mentioned this, then. (...which wouldn't be too hard to do, since I haven't really been going back and reading over older parts of the comic or anything.) I had thought that Piccolo's recent "Cold's final form is way stronger than his sons, maybe closer to the Androids" was the first power comparison we really got for him, aside from being stronger than the alternate-universe Videl.

If King Cold was stronger than Cooler already before even getting to his final form, though... yeah, they've pretty much made his power level completely ridiculous.

It was in the supposedly canon novelization. Cooler wonders if Cold surpassed him when he first transformed, which implied that he had (Cooler appears to be able to sense ki), but not by much, so it was hard to notice. Cooler himself is also likely stronger than Trunks in his first appearance, so...

[rereboy]

Cold's 100% is probably just an added 30% like it was with Freeza before he went 100%.

By the way, Freeza is never mentioned to have been using just 3% ever, anywhere. Its not in the manga, its not in the anime and, as far as I know, its not in any guide.

Meanwhile, "everybody" keeps forgetting that Cold's true form could be just around #18's power or even somewhat inferior and his 100% form just 30% superior to that. Piccolo's statement just placed him around the general level of the androids, he wasn't sure where to place him.

[Saiga]

Freeza was definitely using less than 50%, though and was fighting evenly with a Goku who was only 2.5% of his strength. 3% is a pretty fair estimation. Cold starting out at a higher % of power than Freeza isn't exactly implied anywhere.

[rereboy]

Freeza was definitely using less than 50%, though and was fighting evenly with a Goku who was only 2.5% of his strength. 3% is a pretty fair estimation. Cold starting out at a higher % of power than Freeza isn't exactly implied anywhere.

Its a guess completely based on retroactively using guide exclusive power levels (150 million and 120 million) to come up with power levels for earlier portions of the fight between Goku and Freeza, despite the fact of the manga itself constantly reminds us that power levels are flawed and ultimately meaningless, despite the fact that the author himself completely dropped the use of power levels basically when the Freeza fight started (presumably because they had outgrown their usefulness for the story and with them gone the author wouldn't have to worry about having any kind of consistency regarding them from that point on), and despite the fact that (I believe) DBM doesn't follow the guides which basically excludes right from the start those guide exclusive power levels.

As for Cold starting out with 70% or any kind of other percentage, that's right, its not implied anywhere. Its unknown what kind he percentage he had, just like its unknown if he's closer to #18 in power or #16. Therefore, its useless to assume that he was as strong as #16 when he transformed into his true form and that his 100% is higher or much higher than #16. As far of we know, even at 100% he might still be inferior to #16.

The problem with Cold in DBM continues to be the justification for his power to be stronger than his sons.

[Saiga]

Well, the part of Freeza using less than 50% is from the manga. And the part of Goku being AROUND 2.5% of Freeza's full power is at least heavily supported by the manga, what with the Kaio-ken x20 scene and all.

Also the manga only really shows that the devices for measuring battle powers are flawed. The numbers don't actually lie, even - someone reading at 5,000 actually is that strong at the time of their reading, it just doesn't indicate whether this is their true strength. So, that argument has no relevance where scouters aren't involved.

But yes, I did forget that Salagir discounts the guides, but he still believes in the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x and the Kaio-ken multipliers along with Freeza's stated percentages already do enough without the guides.

Yes, assuming he is already as strong as 16 when he was compared to a range of Androids isn't exactly fair, but he WAS still compared to 16. There's no more reason to believe that he's weaker than 18. I think it's fairer to discuss the potential range of powers he could sit, including the highest, unless his strength is made clearer.

[rereboy]

Well, the part of Freeza using less than 50% is from the manga. And the part of Goku being AROUND 2.5% of Freeza's full power is at least heavily supported by the manga, what with the Kaio-ken x20 scene and all.

Also the manga only really shows that the devices for measuring battle powers are flawed. The numbers don't actually lie, even - someone reading at 5,000 actually is that strong at the time of their reading, it just doesn't indicate whether this is their true strength. So, that argument has no relevance where scouters aren't involved.

But yes, I did forget that Salagir discounts the guides, but he still believes in the Super Saiyan multiplier being 50x and the Kaio-ken multipliers along with Freeza's stated percentages already do enough without the guides.

Yes, assuming he is already as strong as 16 when he was compared to a range of Androids isn't exactly fair, but he WAS still compared to 16. There's no more reason to believe that he's weaker than 18. I think it's fairer to discuss the potential range of powers he could sit, including the highest, unless his strength is made clearer.

Assuming that Freeza stopped Goku's Kaioken still using his 50%, its a fair guess, but since its unknown just when Freeza started using his 70% (he just mentioned that he was using 70% right before powering up to 100%, and we are left without knowing if he only started using it after the Genki Dama, or during and after the Genki Dama, or during and after Goku's Kamehameha, or if he tapped into it to resist Goku's attack and then went back to 50% and only went back up for the Genki Dama, etc), and exactly when Goku started using Kaioken in his fight with Freeza (and what level of it), we realize that the correct answer is not that obvious.

Regarding scouters, even if its not intentional, I think its worth mentioning that also are shown to be somewhat inconsistent regarding the gaps of power between fighters and the dominance of one fighter over another. Also, as we see with Radditz's scouter, the scouter seems to take into consideration if the fighter is weighted down or not into its calculations of battle power, which should have nothing to do with the amount of Ki the fighters have. Therefore, the scouters seem to do more than just read the raw Ki or power of a fighter, they seem to be actually giving a real time estimate of the fighter overall fighting capability. Which, needless to say, muddles the issue severely and seems to give weight to the numbers being ultimately untrustworthy overall and not just because there are fighters out there that can hide their Ki. They are pretty good for being that can't sense Ki, though. Ki sensing isn't exactly perfect either.

[testing223]

Super Saiyan 2 Bardock would just be insulting to our intelligence. Hell, regular Super Saiyan is enough of a stretch.

Not really, especially since SSJ Bardock already appeared in official material.

[mAcChaos]

Why do people think it's so outlandish that Cold be stronger than his sons?

We never are told if he is in his 2nd form or final form in the manga.

[Pantalones]

I'm fine with Cold being stronger than his sons. He does look like he's in an equivalent of Freeza's second form, after all, and assuming his transformations work like Freeza's and Cooler's he should have two stronger forms than that (...though maybe not stronger to the same degree that Freeza's own 4th form is, because he was already compared to a suppressed final-form Freeza in his 2nd form, which would make his 4th form something like three times Freeza's full strength... which is probably pushing Android levels of power, if not surpassing #17 and #18. Or still weaker than Cooler in his 5th form, if you go by that absurdly high 470,000,000 level from the video game promotional thing.)

I don't think it's him being stronger than Freeza (or even Cooler) that people have a problem with, anyway.

When he's stronger than his sons without even reaching his final form, though, it starts to get a little silly... especially if he really is as strong as Android 16 in his final form (especially if the Android 16-like power was not his 100% but something lower.) That seems to be what people are taking issue with--King Cold suddenly being revealed as someone who could've stomped Trunks into the dirt with both hands tied behind his back if he'd only taken the time to transform.

[RandomGuy96]

Why do people think it's so outlandish that Cold be stronger than his sons?

We never are told if he is in his 2nd form or final form in the manga.

Except Cold repeatedly says that Freeza is stronger than him. Freeza says the same thing. I outlined this earlier in the thread:

Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P12.3
Tenshinhan: “It…it’s not just one…There’s another absurdly large ki…”

Note: it's Freeza and Cold.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”

Note: the same isn't said for Cold. Implying Cold and suppressed Mecha Freeza are equal, since nothing else is ever stated about Cold's strength.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P3.5
Freeza: “It’s an honor that my name should be known on this planet so far removed from the rest of the galaxy…However, unfortunately you don’t seem to know that I have the greatest power in the universe…”

Note: this is said right in front of Cold, who just stands there letting Freeza order him around.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”

Note: as far as Cold knows, the only thing this guy has done is defeat Freeza after a decent fight. This is enough for him to automatically declare this unknown guy the strongest in the universe. This line obviously makes no sense if Cold could do the same thing, and should count as Cold saying he's weaker

Chapter: 332 (DBZ 138), P6.1-2
Context: after Trunks kills Freeza
Cold: “My, you are capable, aren’t you? Marvelous, truly more than I imagined…To think that you could wipe my son Freeza out in that instant…How about it? Will you take Freeza’s place and become my child? Certainly you, the strongest in the universe, are qualified to join my clan.”

Note: all it took for Cold to declare this guy the strongest in the universe was for him to kill a SUPPRESSED Mecha Freeza. This line obviously makes no sense if Cold is even as strong as normal, 100% Freeza.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”

If Cold has a crapload of extra power that's above Freeza in reserve, now would be the best time to use it. He doesn't, and just begs for mercy after Trunks kills suppressed Freeza.

Even Salagir admits he kinda screwed up here.

RandomGuy96 made a good point explaining why clearly Cold isn't stronger than Freeza.
But everything can be bent a little (by me) and change that.

When he's stronger than his sons without even reaching his final form, though, it starts to get a little silly... especially if he really is as strong as Android 16 in his final form (especially if the Android 16-like power was not his 100% but something lower.) That seems to be what people are taking issue with--King Cold suddenly being revealed as someone who could've stomped Trunks into the dirt with both hands tied behind his back if he'd only taken the time to transform.

I have a problem with Cold being stronger than Freeza at all, since the manga makes it clear this isn't the case, though the other stuff you listed is obviously also an issue.

That and, again, how completely unnecessary this whole thing was. Salagir contradicted the manga, completely ruined the whole climax of the Freeza arc, and made numerous plotholes in his own work for... what exactly? Why is it necessary for Cold to be this strong? If they just wanted to do this to show off some cool transformations for Cold, they could've done that. Cold's transformations don't have to correspond to Freeza's so exactly, so he can be still be below Freeza and do what he's depicted as doing here (beating up Videl in his third form and thrashing Bardock in his fourth). All that'd have to change is Bardock's and possibly Videl's strength, and they don't have to be that powerful either.

If they did want to keep both Bardock and possibly even Videl above Freeza for whatever reason, why not just swap King Cold and Cooler? Cooler actually is stronger than Freeza, and could plausibly take on someone who could stomp him flat.

The only possible reason for this is if Salagir wanted SS Bardock to both lose to Cold and still be super duper strong- judging by these pages, above Kamiccolo strong. And I question whether or not that's worth it.

[mAcChaos]

Huh. I was going to point out that just because they know Freeza can get stronger doesn't mean anything about Cold since they don't know about whether or not he has transformations, etc. They only say that for Freeza since they saw first hand.

But the other stuff Cold says to Trunks is not really disputable. Unless Cold was just trying to appeal to his ego.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why do people think it's so outlandish that Cold be stronger than his sons?

We never are told if he is in his 2nd form or final form in the manga.

He may be able to transform 10 times. The fact is that even after transforming, he should still be weaker than Freeza.

[Saiga]

Assuming that Freeza stopped Goku's Kaioken still using his 50%, its a fair guess, but since its unknown just when Freeza started using his 70% (he just mentioned that he was using 70% right before powering up to 100%, and we are left without knowing if he only started using it after the Genki Dama, or during and after the Genki Dama, or during and after Goku's Kamehameha, or if he tapped into it to resist Goku's attack and then went back to 50% and only went back up for the Genki Dama, etc), and exactly when Goku started using Kaioken in his fight with Freeza (and what level of it), we realize that the correct answer is not that obvious.

Regarding scouters, even if its not intentional, I think its worth mentioning that also are shown to be somewhat inconsistent regarding the gaps of power between fighters and the dominance of one fighter over another. Also, as we see with Radditz's scouter, the scouter seems to take into consideration if the fighter is weighted down or not into its calculations of battle power, which should have nothing to do with the amount of Ki the fighters have. Therefore, the scouters seem to do more than just read the raw Ki or power of a fighter, they seem to be actually giving a real time estimate of the fighter overall fighting capability. Which, needless to say, muddles the issue severely and seems to give weight to the numbers being ultimately untrustworthy overall and not just because there are fighters out there that can hide their Ki. They are pretty good for being that can't sense Ki, though. Ki sensing isn't exactly perfect either.

Okay, fair point about the 70%, but 70% vs 50% doesn't make a huge difference overall. And I think that some anime stuff aside the Kaio-ken usage is quite clear in that fight. So I don't think there's any reason to think that Freeza was using much power at all to begin with, same thing with Cold.

[rereboy]

Why do people think it's so outlandish that Cold be stronger than his sons?

We never are told if he is in his 2nd form or final form in the manga.

Because if he was stronger than Freeza in the manga (in his true form or any other form) it wouldn't make sense for him to not try to transform agaisnt Trunks who had just killed Freeza. Also, Cold never contradicts Freeza when Freeza says he is the strongest in the universe.

But it would be easy to come up with an explanation for Cold to be stronger than his sons in this fan manga since they are from another universe. That's where the flaw really is, they don't provide a decent explanation.

[FoolsGil]

Why do people think it's so outlandish that Cold be stronger than his sons?

We never are told if he is in his 2nd form or final form in the manga.

Because if he was stronger than Freeza in the manga (in his true form or any other form) it wouldn't make sense for him to not try to transform agaisnt Trunks who had just killed Freeza. Also, Cold never contradicts Freeza when Freeza says he is the strongest in the universe.

a lot of things in the manga and anime don't make sense. There's contradictions everywhere. Speaking of contradictions it was stated in story that King Cold was slightly stronger than Freeza.


You know in hindsight, Toryama should have have Cold coming to Earth in a Final Form, but he probably thought the second form that Freeza had was more awesome-I know I like it, and it makes sense why Toryama didn't bother having him Cold transform against Trunks-Cold was a means to an end.He needed Trunks to come to the past, but he wanted to throw in some mystery and action so he brought in Freeza to attack Earth to show what Trunks can do, but since Freeza has no way to get to Earth, He came up with Cold, thought 2nd form was the most cool/intimidating, had Cold pick Freeza up take to Earth and have Trunks kill Freeza, and to tie up loose ends, Trunks kills Cold because that part of the story is over and it was time to learn about Androids and the Future.

And also, why would Trunks give Cold time to transform? I'd rather not see Cold killed mid transformation. Either way I'm sure that if Toryama was asked about Cold, he would confirm that he has a 3rd and 4th form, just like his sons.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why do people think it's so outlandish that Cold be stronger than his sons?

We never are told if he is in his 2nd form or final form in the manga.

Because if he was stronger than Freeza in the manga (in his true form or any other form) it wouldn't make sense for him to not try to transform agaisnt Trunks who had just killed Freeza. Also, Cold never contradicts Freeza when Freeza says he is the strongest in the universe.

a lot of things in the manga and anime don't make sense. There's contradictions everywhere. Speaking of contradictions it was stated in story that King Cold was slightly stronger than Freeza.

No. It's not. If you're going to make statements like this, you need to back them up with evidence.

[Hellspawn28]

I feel at this rate DBM throws all logic out of the window and is like "Fuck it. It's a AU, deal with it!".

[RandomGuy96]

Speaking of contradictions it was stated in story that King Cold was slightly stronger than Freeza.

No it wasn't. Not in the manga, which Salagir claims to follow.

And also, why would Trunks give Cold time to transform?

He DID give Cold a chance to transform.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P9.1
Context: challenging Freeza and Cold
Trunks: “Come at me at full power right from the start. I’m not soft like Son Goku…”

I'd rather not see Cold killed mid transformation. Either way I'm sure that if Toryama was asked about Cold, he would confirm that he has a 3rd and 4th form, just like his sons.

As was said: he could have a third form, a fourth form, a fifth form, a sixth form, even a thirtieth form, it wouldn't matter. Now matter how many transformations he makes, he'd end up weaker than Freeza.

[Z-Dragon]