Raditz/Nappa Battle Power

[DBZGTKOSDH]

About the energy loss:
I'm not contradicting myself in my previous post. Both Goku's & Freeza's bodies were in a bad shape after the Genki Dama, since both of them were beaten up. However, being in a bad shape doesn't mean that Freeza's energy was lowered. Freeza's statement, again, says nothing about him having lost energy. He says "Even having taken this damage, there’s still no way I’ll be done-in by the likes of you!", which translates into "You were strong enough to hurt me, but not strong enough to kill me". And even Freeza says that he is using 70% of his power against SS Goku, and then goes to 100% of his power. SS2 Gohan on the other hand had lost half of his ki, meaning that his power was at 50%.
But you are right, it seems that damage really does lower ones power, but not to the extent that you think. You seem to think that every hit lowers ones power, but from what I see, it's the major damage that lowers one's power. Raditz's power didn't necessarily fall from Gohan's hit, he couldn't get Goku out of him because the pain limited his body movement. If you get punched hard in the chest, will you be able to move freely? Nail's power didn't drop only because he was beaten up, but also because he was regenerating. Goku was surprised that Cell still had that much ki not because he should have gotten weaker from the damage, but because he should be dead from the damage with no ki at all.


About Goku/Vegeta vs Freeza/Dodoria:
These are two very different battles. Vegeta was trying to kill Dodoria, and Dodoria had lost all his will to fight, while Goku wanted to humiliate Freeza, and Freeza never lost his will to fight. There are more factors in fights other than battle powers.


About Freeza's & Cell's power-ups:
While Freeza & Cell did the same thing, with Cell doing it at a more extreme level, which kills his speed.


About the SS multiplier:
Like you said, the x10 could be wrong if it didn't fit in the manga. Freeza

[freezamite]

I'm not contradicting myself in my previous post. Both Goku's & Freeza's bodies were in a bad shape after the Genki Dama, since both of them were beaten up. However, being in a bad shape doesn't mean that Freeza's energy was lowered.

So, both of them were beaten up, but Goku was even unable to stand up by himself and Freezer didn't lose even a bit of energy? Unless you can prove that Freezer wasn't affected by the injuries this is clearly going against the manga and the most basic common sense.
And yes, you're contradicting yourself in that the "their eyes open" was the proof that they regained their Ki. You're only putting excuses that even you don't believe are true.

Freeza's statement, again, says nothing about him having lost energy. He says "Even having taken this damage, there’s still no way I’ll be done-in by the likes of you!", which translates into "You were strong enough to hurt me, but not strong enough to kill me".

That would be one of the worst "translation" I've ever seen.
"Even having taken this damage, there's still no way I'll be done-in by the likes of you!" clearly translates into "Even as weakened as I am, I'm still stronger than you".

And even Freeza says that he is using 70% of his power against SS Goku, and then goes to 100% of his power. SS2 Gohan on the other hand had lost half of his ki, meaning that his power was at 50%.

Because Gohan isn't restraining his power after being hurt by Cell, and of course, he speaks comparing his current full power to his previous full power. Freezer on the other hand was restraining his power even after being injured, and he spoke obviously for the power he was using at that moment.

But you are right, it seems that damage really does lower ones power, but not to the extent that you think. You seem to think that every hit lowers ones power, but from what I see, it's the major damage that lowers one's power.

I think it's proportional to the damage taken, and now it seems that a huge attack that almost killed Freezer isn't enough to damage him. Freezer, who almost died, wasn't injured enough.
On the other hand, Gohan who received some considerable damage but nothing close to being killed, lost 50% of his power. That's nonsense.

Raditz's power didn't necessarily fall from Gohan's hit, he couldn't get Goku out of him because the pain limited his body movement.

Well, it's good that at least now you're considering things like the pain on your excuses (not arguments to me anymore).
Look, that would be a somewhat plausible theory (it's a shame that at this point I don't think you're trying to defend an honest view of the manga, but only trying to desperately justify your original stance at any cost even when you are aware that it didn't make any sense) if it wasn't for those lines:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

Your previous justification about Raditz's 1500 units is that even when 1307 was much less than his strength (the same difference than between Vegeta and Dodoria, a much higher difference than the one between Goku KKx2 and Vegeta), since Raditz wasn't expecting Gohan's attack it dealt to him an extraordinary amount of damage.
The 1307 reading was considered true by Vegeta because how much damage Raditz took from that hit, which means that:
1. Raditz suffered a large amount of damage, confirmed by himself and Vegeta.
2. The damage wasn't anything extraordinary due to it being a "surprise" attack because otherwise Vegeta wouldn't have considered the effect it had on Raditz "normal" by any means. In fact, he would've said that "considering the damage Raditz took the brat should be much stronger" or "yes, although it's strange that Raditz had taken so much damage with a hit like that".
At the same time, they're the ones saying that a 1200 saibaman rivals Raditz in terms of power.
1500 is clearly wrong as demonstrated by those two statements.

If you get punched hard in the chest, will you be able to move freely? Nail's power didn't drop only because he was beaten up, but also because he was regenerating.

It doesn't matter if it didn't drop ONLY because he was beaten up, I was only trying to demonstrate that it dropped because of the injuries and that has been clearly proved at this point.

Goku was surprised that Cell still had that much ki not because he should have gotten weaker from the damage, but because he should be dead from the damage with no ki at all.

Yes, of course Goku wasn't surprised by something as "normal" as someone's injures weakening him, I was proving that injuries weakens the ones being injured. Just that.

About Goku/Vegeta vs Freeza/Dodoria:
These are two very different battles. Vegeta was trying to kill Dodoria, and Dodoria had lost all his will to fight, while Goku wanted to humiliate Freeza, and Freeza never lost his will to fight. There are more factors in fights other than battle powers.

Vegeta did what he wanted with Dodoria, and Dodoria only lost his will to fight after being humiliated by Vegeta. On the other hand, Freezer gave (even if only for a few minutes) a serious fight to Goku, who wasn't even sure of his victory until Freezer had lost too much power.
Dodoria NEVER had a chance against Vegeta, and Goku quit the fight when he knew Freezer couldn't fight against him. Goku's way to humiliate Freezer was to quit the match without killing him, that was the humiliation. If Freezer was that much weaker in comparison to him, Goku would've quit the match at the very beginning of it.

About Freeza's & Cell's power-ups:
While Freeza & Cell did the same thing, with Cell doing it at a more extreme level, which kills his speed.

Freezer's technique INCREASED his speed, and Cell did the same he did against Trunks, which hadn't anything to do with what Freezer did.
You have a quote of the manga saying that Cell did the same that Trunks, and your excuse is that it wasn't the case because that Cell looked to big.
And now you're saying that Cell did the same as Freezer when:
1. Judging from the size increase, what Freezer did was even smaller than what Cell/Trunks did on the island.
2. Contradicting the manga when it said that Cell did the same mistake than Trunks.
3. Contradicting any logic because what Freezer did increased his speed and strength, so I don't see how Cell did the same thing when he traded speed for strength.

It seems that this has reached the personal level. You're personally invested on that discussion, this is not about dragon ball anymore, but about your pride.
At this point where it seems that nothing that's been written on the manga will make you change your opinion because you will always invent something no matter how contradictory with the manga it is, I'm not interested on this. No matter how many evidences I show you, you will always invent something.

About the SS multiplier:
Like you said, the x10 could be wrong if it didn't fit in the manga. Freeza

No, you go exclusively by the Daizenshuu, and that's fine. 10x doesn't fit the Daizenshuu and 50x doesn't fit the manga, while 10x fits the manga and it's what Toriyama drew and 50x doesn't fit the manga no matter the excuses you put.
I'm fine if you consider that the Daizenshuu is more important than the manga, I don't think so and since this is a matter of purely personal tastes that discussion ends here (at least, for me).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, both of them were beaten up, but Goku was even unable to stand up by himself and Freezer didn't lose even a bit of energy? Unless you can prove that Freezer wasn't affected by the injuries this is clearly going against the manga and the most basic common sense.

FREEZA SAID HE WAS USING 70% OF HS POWER, AND THEN POWERED UP TO 100%.

And yes, you're contradicting yourself in that the "their eyes open" was the proof that they regained their Ki. You're only putting excuses that even you don't believe are true.

Not my problem if you can't understand my point!

That would be one of the worst "translation" I've ever seen.
"Even having taken this damage, there's still no way I'll be done-in by the likes of you!" clearly translates into "Even as weakened as I am, I'm still stronger than you".

Your opinion then. I happen to disagree.

Because Gohan isn't restraining his power after being hurt by Cell, and of course, he speaks comparing his current full power to his previous full power. Freezer on the other hand was restraining his power even after being injured, and he spoke obviously for the power he was using at that moment.

Gohan is talking about his current power, not his full power. He wasn't at full power. No one in the series or real-life says that he is using his full power when he is not.

I think it's proportional to the damage taken, and now it seems that a huge attack that almost killed Freezer isn't enough to damage him. Freezer, who almost died, wasn't injured enough.
On the other hand, Gohan who received some considerable damage but nothing close to being killed, lost 50% of his power. That's nonsense.

Freeza thought he would be killed, he didn't almost die.

Well, it's good that at least now you're considering things like the pain on your excuses (not arguments to me anymore).
Look, that would be a somewhat plausible theory (it's a shame that at this point I don't think you're trying to defend an honest view of the manga, but only trying to desperately justify your original stance at any cost even when you are aware that it didn't make any sense) if it wasn't for those lines:

Chapter: 204 (DBZ 10), P12.1-2
Vegeta: “At any rate, the battle power of Kakarot’s son is unusually high, even by the standards of Saiyan children.”
Nappa: “Maybe his reading was wrong.”
Vegeta: “No, it wasn’t wrong. Raditz really took a large amount of damage from that brat’s attack. It seems that mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.”

Your previous justification about Raditz's 1500 units is that even when 1307 was much less than his strength (the same difference than between Vegeta and Dodoria, a much higher difference than the one between Goku KKx2 and Vegeta), since Raditz wasn't expecting Gohan's attack it dealt to him an extraordinary amount of damage.
The 1307 reading was considered true by Vegeta because how much damage Raditz took from that hit, which means that:
1. Raditz suffered a large amount of damage, confirmed by himself and Vegeta.
2. The damage wasn't anything extraordinary due to it being a "surprise" attack because otherwise Vegeta wouldn't have considered the effect it had on Raditz "normal" by any means. In fact, he would've said that "considering the damage Raditz took the brat should be much stronger" or "yes, although it's strange that Raditz had taken so much damage with a hit like that".
At the same time, they're the ones saying that a 1200 saibaman rivals Raditz in terms of power.
1500 is clearly wrong as demonstrated by those two statements.

I believe I have already admitted that 1.500 doesn't make sense for Raditz before our grand debate.

Yes, of course Goku wasn't surprised by something as "normal" as someone's injures weakening him, I was proving that injuries weakens the ones being injured. Just that.

In this case, Cell shouldn't have any ki because of death not injuries.

Vegeta did what he wanted with Dodoria, and Dodoria only lost his will to fight after being humiliated by Vegeta. On the other hand, Freezer gave (even if only for a few minutes) a serious fight to Goku, who wasn't even sure of his victory until Freezer had lost too much power.
Dodoria NEVER had a chance against Vegeta, and Goku quit the fight when he knew Freezer couldn't fight against him. Goku's way to humiliate Freezer was to quit the match without killing him, that was the humiliation. If Freezer was that much weaker in comparison to him, Goku would've quit the match at the very beginning of it.

Let's not forget that Dodoria never managed to hit Vegeta, and that their fight lasted for a few seconds before Vegeta immobilized him. The Goku vs Freeza fight was one-sided for Goku, with Freeza managing to take him by surprise a few times.

Freezer's technique INCREASED his speed, and Cell did the same he did against Trunks, which hadn't anything to do with what Freezer did.
You have a quote of the manga saying that Cell did the same that Trunks, and your excuse is that it wasn't the case because that Cell looked to big.
And now you're saying that Cell did the same as Freezer when:
1. Judging from the size increase, what Freezer did was even smaller than what Cell/Trunks did on the island.
2. Contradicting the manga when it said that Cell did the same mistake than Trunks.
3. Contradicting any logic because what Freezer did increased his speed and strength, so I don't see how Cell did the same thing when he traded speed for strength.

Freeza increased his muscles. He increased drastically his power, speed, endurance, etc, but he lowered his stamina. Cell increased his muscles even more. He increased even more drastically his power, endurance, etc, but he killed his speed, and lowered his stamina even more. Same thing, different level with even more drawbacks.

Like the SSGrade 2 & 3 forms. Vegeta increased his muscles, increasing drastically his power, speed, etc, but with lowering his stamina. Trunks increases his muscles even more, increasing even more drastically his power, endurance, etc, but he killed his speed, and lowered his stamina even more.

It seems that this has reached the personal level. You're personally invested on that discussion, this is not about dragon ball anymore, but about your pride.
At this point where it seems that nothing that's been written on the manga will make you change your opinion because you will always invent something no matter how contradictory with the manga it is, I'm not interested on this. No matter how many evidences I show you, you will always invent something.

Really? You really believe your opinion is a fact, and that people that disagree with you exist only to defend their "pride"?

No, you go exclusively by the Daizenshuu, and that's fine. 10x doesn't fit the Daizenshuu and 50x doesn't fit the manga, while 10x fits the manga and it's what Toriyama drew and 50x doesn't fit the manga no matter the excuses you put.
I'm fine if you consider that the Daizenshuu is more important than the manga, I don't think so and since this is a matter of purely personal tastes that discussion ends here (at least, for me).

Not really, I throw away the contradicting things in the Daizenshuu, and only keep the things that fit in the manga. x50 makes perfect sense in the manga IMO. Your opinion is NOT a fact, just like my opinion isn't.

[freezamite]

So, both of them were beaten up, but Goku was even unable to stand up by himself and Freezer didn't lose even a bit of energy? Unless you can prove that Freezer wasn't affected by the injuries this is clearly going against the manga and the most basic common sense.

FREEZA SAID HE WAS USING 70% OF HS POWER, AND THEN POWERED UP TO 100%.

Yes, and what we are discussing is if this 70% was relative to the energy he had at that moment, or if it was an absolute term. You are continuously ignoring what you're said in order to progress in the discussion. Don't you see how I'm quoting you and answering to your exact arguments one after the other? Why are you not answering to mines and only taking into account your own vision of that line?
Ignoring my points while saying they're wrong... that's not fair by any means and it's impossible to have a polite discussion if you're constantly doing this.

Because Gohan isn't restraining his power after being hurt by Cell, and of course, he speaks comparing his current full power to his previous full power. Freezer on the other hand was restraining his power even after being injured, and he spoke obviously for the power he was using at that moment.

Gohan is talking about his current power, not his full power. He wasn't at full power. No one in the series or real-life says that he is using his full power when he is not.

Lets look at an english dictionary:
Full: 1. Containing all that is normal or possible
Full power = All my energy = 100% of energy and no matter how you look at that, there are two possible meanings, and all of them are equally correct without any context.
You grab "full" as "containing all that is normal" and I grab "full" as "containing all that is possible". You can pefectly say Gohan was at that moment at full power, because at that moment for him it only was possible to be at 50% the energy he normally had since the other 50% had been lost, and the same goes for Freezer and everyone else on the series except the ones with infinite energy.
It's a valid meaning of "full" because at that moment it 50% is full since the other 50% had been lost for the character.

In other words, if I grab a bottle of 1 litter of capacity, I cut the upper half of it, I throw that cut half to the rubbish can and then I fill the remaining bottom half with water, then that bottom half is full no matter if the bottle was once able to contain 1 litter of water and it's correct to say that the recipient it's at full capacity now. And of course, you could also say that this bottle now only contains half the amount of water it contained yesterday when it was also full.

What you're constantly doing is eliminating one of the meanings of that word, and imposing the other one as if it was the only possible. Do you know how is that called?
Equivocation -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation

If you want to defend your stance at "full power" meaning "all that is normal" in the context of Freezer, then be my guest and demonstrate it with the manga. But what you can't do it's to ignore the other interpretation without demonstrating that it's incorrect, because with that attitude I think that you are too personally involved in that discussion.

Look, I demonstrated that characters lose energy when they're damaged, and also that Freezer wasn't an exception. You say that he was an exception like the androids or kid bu, well then, demonstrate it. But stop that "full power means no energy was lost" fallacy based on ignoring the other meanings of the word "full", and even more if you're trying to demonstrate that Toriyama was wrong about that, this is not the way to discuss something.

I think it's proportional to the damage taken, and now it seems that a huge attack that almost killed Freezer isn't enough to damage him. Freezer, who almost died, wasn't injured enough.
On the other hand, Gohan who received some considerable damage but nothing close to being killed, lost 50% of his power. That's nonsense.

Freeza thought he would be killed, he didn't almost die.

Yes, so Freezer was intact, totally undamaged, but he thought he would die. Fantastic. Pilaf was stronger than Perfect Cell, but he wanted to secretly train Goku and this is the reason he never killed him even when he could, because Perfect Cell was stronger than Kid Goku and nowhere in the manga it's said that Pilaf wasn't as strong as Perfect Cell. I also know how to play at that.

I believe I have already admitted that 1.500 doesn't make sense for Raditz before our grand debate.

As far as I remember you only admitted that Nappa's 4000 didn't make sense, but if you have also admitted that for Raditz's 1500 then I'm sorry I forgot that.

In this case, Cell shouldn't have any ki because of death not injuries.

Yes, but he was alive and he "only" lost ki due to the injuries. It may be a contradiction in the sense that he couldn't be alive without his head, but it followed the rule that "injuries" makes someone lose his energy.

Let's not forget that Dodoria never managed to hit Vegeta, and that their fight lasted for a few seconds before Vegeta immobilized him. The Goku vs Freeza fight was one-sided for Goku, with Freeza managing to take him by surprise a few times.

Freeza taking him by surprise a few times and the fight being one-sided? It wasn't one sided until Freezer had lost his energy, before that, the fight was totally even. I mean, chapter 324 last page, or chapter 322. I don't see there anything resembling a one-sided fight. Chapter 323 is a total win for Freezer, even if he evades the KameHame he firstly demonstrates he can cope with it, but of course he uses his more versatile technique to catch Goku by the side. It was a surprise in the sense that he could do something Goku wasn't expecting, but not in the sense of attacking treachery.
The fight doesn't become one sided until chapter 325, and even there Freezer is able to connect two punches on Goku even if at that point he had already lost too much energy to fight him properly.

The difference was bigger than the one between Vegeta and Dodoria according to you.

Freeza increased his muscles. He increased drastically his power, speed, endurance, etc, but he lowered his stamina. Cell increased his muscles even more. He increased even more drastically his power, endurance, etc, but he killed his speed, and lowered his stamina even more. Same thing, different level with even more drawbacks.

The problem is that this is a "Pilaf = Perfect Cell" kind of reasoning. The manga clearly says that this was the same transformation Trunks did. And that transformation always traded Speed for Strength no matter if it was done at a lower level (island) or taken to the limit (Cell games).
You say that it was the same thing, well, it's your word against what was written on the manga. On the other hand, when Cell uses his dead beam against Gohan it was pointed out that "this was a technique that Freezer used", but when he powers up nothing of that is said.
So Cell uses the same technique than Freezer despite Trunks saying that he had used the same technique than him and having the same effect than the technique he used.

Well, since Trunks says that that transformation was the same he used, and since it has the exact same effects of the transformation they used, then I go with "Cell used the same change that Trunks used" and not with "Cell used the same change that Freezer used".

Like the SSGrade 2 & 3 forms. Vegeta increased his muscles, increasing drastically his power, speed, etc, but with lowering his stamina. Trunks increases his muscles even more, increasing even more drastically his power, endurance, etc, but he killed his speed, and lowered his stamina even more.

But this "SSGrade 2 & 3" it's only a fan-made nomenclature. On the manga they were two different changes, and for what matters, I never saw Vegeta loosing his stamina. I mean, can you demonstrate that Vegeta lost his stamina with the manga? I don't see that anywhere!

Really? You really believe your opinion is a fact, and that people that disagree with you exist only to defend their "pride"?

No, I only believe that when someone is constantly using fallacies or ignoring someone else's arguments in order to defend his stance.
Your "full power" trickery of ignoring what I'm saying instead of answering to it makes me think that you're not interested on defending you conception on the manga but that there's something more here. I mean, this is only a manga, why would you constantly ignore my argument regarding the "100%" being relative to what was possible and not to what was normal if you aren't personally invested on it?
I don't care in discussing anything with anyone, in fact, I even admitted that you were right in some aspects of what was discussed, but when I see you reaching the point of invention or lie, then that makes me suspicious.

Not really, I throw away the contradicting things in the Daizenshuu, and only keep the things that fit in the manga. x50 makes perfect sense in the manga IMO. Your opinion is NOT a fact, just like my opinion isn't.

My opinion may not be a fact, but it's a fact that you've been ignoring my point the whole time and not answering to it directly. It's that what makes me think what I said to you. 50x makes perfect sense in the manga to you going with what you think of it, and it would be fine if you weren't defending your stance with fallacies that imply that even you are conscious that this is not the case.
Answer my argument, demonstrate to me that when Freezer says "full power" it can't be interpreted like "all the power he has at that moment" since it's a totally valid interpretation going by the definition of those words.
You're evading this point constantly, and the only time you answered to it was to say "I disagree" without giving any reason. I've already given you tons of reasons why I consider that "full power" didn't mean "all the power he normally has" and they can be summarized in "Freezer wasn't at his normal condition at that point of the fight".

The only two arguments you've given to defend your stance are:
"Freezer wasn't damaged even when he said he was" and "Freezer recovered his ki when he increased his power to 100%", but you then said that "Freezer recovering his ki" was your mistake so at that point all I've read regarding that is "Freezer wasn't damaged despite he saying he was".
The problem here is that in order to demonstrate that Freezer didn't lose energy you use your own interpretation of full power as "the power Freezer normally has", and to demonstrate that Freezer's full power was the power he normally had and not the one he possibly had at that moment you say that he wasn't injured despite him saying so.
You can't use your own premises or opinions to demonstrate your own opinions or premises, if you want to demonstrate your stance you have to grab a solid fact of the manga that without any doubt invalidates my interpretation of it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes, and what we are discussing is if this 70% was relative to the energy he had at that moment, or if it was an absolute term. You are continuously ignoring what you're said in order to progress in the discussion. Don't you see how I'm quoting you and answering to your exact arguments one after the other? Why are you not answering to mines and only taking into account your own vision of that line?

Because as I've already said a tons of times, I disagree with your interpretation. I just can't interpret it like that. There is nothing else to say, really.

Ignoring my points while saying they're wrong... that's not fair by any means and it's impossible to have a polite discussion if you're constantly doing this.

I'm not ignoring you points, I disagree with your points. Freeza either is at 100% Full Power, or if he is too tired and/or injured, he isn't.

Lets look at an english dictionary:
Full: 1. Containing all that is normal or possible
Full power = All my energy = 100% of energy and no matter how you look at that, there are two possible meanings, and all of them are equally correct without any context.
You grab "full" as "containing all that is normal" and I grab "full" as "containing all that is possible". You can pefectly say Gohan was at that moment at full power, because at that moment for him it only was possible to be at 50% the energy he normally had since the other 50% had been lost, and the same goes for Freezer and everyone else on the series except the ones with infinite energy.
It's a valid meaning of "full" because at that moment it 50% is full since the other 50% had been lost for the character.

Let's take 2 examples:

• By your logic, if a bottle of water is half-empty, it's full because it is the maximum amount of water it has at the point, even though it's possible to fill more water.
• By your logic, the battery of a mobile phone is always at 100%, even though my mobile phone's battery says that it is at 7%.

Same thing happens with Freeza. His body normally has a specific amount of ki, which is his 100% Full Power (both "100%" & "full power" are stated in the manga by Freeza), it can't contain more power through normal means. If he gets injured and/or tired, his power drops. Meaning that he isn't full anymore, and he is less than 100%. But by your logic, Freeza is at 100% Full Power all the time when he isn't suppressed,

In other words, if I grab a bottle of 1 litter of capacity, I cut the upper half of it, I throw that cut half to the rubbish can and then I fill the remaining bottom half with water, then that bottom half is full no matter if the bottle was once able to contain 1 litter of water and it's correct to say that the recipient it's at full capacity now. And of course, you could also say that this bottle now only contains half the amount of water it contained yesterday when it was also full.

If it was the same case, Freeza would be permanently weaker from the damage from the Genki Dama.

If you want to defend your stance at "full power" meaning "all that is normal" in the context of Freezer, then be my guest and demonstrate it with the manga. But what you can't do it's to ignore the other interpretation without demonstrating that it's incorrect, because with that attitude I think that you are too personally involved in that discussion.

Do you have any example that shows someone saying something like "I'm using my full power right now, even though I've lost power"?

Yes, so Freezer was intact, totally undamaged, but he thought he would die. Fantastic.

When someone is literally almost dead, he is unconscious wit fatal injuries, and his heart is about to stop. Freeza however could stand & move normally, and never lost consciousness. He saw a ki attack coming at him that he couldn't stop because it was stronger than him, and he shit his pants. It exploded, it hurt like a bitch, it took a part of his tail, but he didn't lost consciousness or any other part of himself.

Yes, but he was alive and he "only" lost ki due to the injuries. It may be a contradiction in the sense that he couldn't be alive without his head, but it followed the rule that "injuries" makes someone lose his energy.

Well yeah, he should have lost ki since he lost half of his body, but that wasn't the point of Goku's statement.

Freeza taking him by surprise a few times and the fight being one-sided? It wasn't one sided until Freezer had lost his energy, before that, the fight was totally even. I mean, chapter 324 last page, or chapter 322. I don't see there anything resembling a one-sided fight. Chapter 323 is a total win for Freezer, even if he evades the KameHame he firstly demonstrates he can cope with it, but of course he uses his more versatile technique to catch Goku by the side. It was a surprise in the sense that he could do something Goku wasn't expecting, but not in the sense of attacking treachery.
The fight doesn't become one sided until chapter 325, and even there Freezer is able to connect two punches on Goku even if at that point he had already lost too much energy to fight him properly.

The difference was bigger than the one between Vegeta and Dodoria according to you.

Goku was clearly

The problem is that this is a "Pilaf = Perfect Cell" kind of reasoning. The manga clearly says that this was the same transformation Trunks did. And that transformation always traded Speed for Strength no matter if it was done at a lower level (island) or taken to the limit (Cell games).
You say that it was the same thing, well, it's your word against what was written on the manga. On the other hand, when Cell uses his dead beam against Gohan it was pointed out that "this was a technique that Freezer used", but when he powers up nothing of that is said.
So Cell uses the same technique than Freezer despite Trunks saying that he had used the same technique than him and having the same effect than the technique he used.

Did they both increase their muscles? However, did Cell increased his muscles even more? It's not exactly the same thing, but it has the same logic, only that Cell & Trunks went beyond the level Freeza & Vegeta went. Freeza got big, Cell got even bigger, and then even bigger in Cell Games, but in the end, both of them got bigger than normal, no?

But this "SSGrade 2 & 3" it's only a fan-made nomenclature.

They are official names used in official guidebooks. Super Saiyan Grade 2 is the form that Vegeta, Trunks, and Goku have displayed that doesn't decrease speed, and Super Saiyan Grade 3 is the form Trunks & Goku (and Cell?) used, that decreases speed.

On the manga they were two different changes

I know. Vegeta changes into bigger, and Trunks changes into even bigger. They are doing the same thing, with Trunks doing it at a bigger level, and thus, he achieves a 3rd SS form.

It's like if we are both blowing a balloon. I blow it less, you blow it more, so mine is smaller than yours, yet we are both doing the same thing.

and for what matters, I never saw Vegeta loosing his stamina. I mean, can you demonstrate that Vegeta lost his stamina with the manga? I don't see that anywhere!

I never saw Vegeta losing stamina as well, but it is implied from the fact that Goku, and Vegeta & Trunks after him, decides to stop using it and focus on regular Super Saiyan. If stamina wasn't the problem with Grade 2, then I don't know what the problem was, but Goku says that the only problems with Grade 3 are the decrease in speed & the fast ki consumption, and we know that speed isn't an issue with Grade 2. Also, both Freeza's power-up & Grade 3 are stated to consume ki faster than usual, so it's safe to assume that Grade 2 does the same as well.

My opinion may not be a fact, but it's a fact that you've been ignoring my point the whole time and not answering to it directly. It's that what makes me think what I said to you. 50x makes perfect sense in the manga to you going with what you think of it, and it would be fine if you weren't defending your stance with fallacies that imply that even you are conscious that this is not the case.
Answer my argument, demonstrate to me that when Freezer says "full power" it can't be interpreted like "all the power he has at that moment" since it's a totally valid interpretation going by the definition of those words.
You're evading this point constantly, and the only time you answered to it was to say "I disagree" without giving any reason. I've already given you tons of reasons why I consider that "full power" didn't mean "all the power he normally has" and they can be summarized in "Freezer wasn't at his normal condition at that point of the fight".

No, I only believe that when someone is constantly using fallacies or ignoring someone else's arguments in order to defend his stance.
Your "full power" trickery of ignoring what I'm saying instead of answering to it makes me think that you're not interested on defending you conception on the manga but that there's something more here. I mean, this is only a manga, why would you constantly ignore my argument regarding the "100%" being relative to what was possible and not to what was normal if you aren't personally invested on it?
I don't care in discussing anything with anyone, in fact, I even admitted that you were right in some aspects of what was discussed, but when I see you reaching the point of invention or lie, then that makes me suspicious.

I'm not ignoring or evading your points, I just disagree with them.

The only two arguments you've given to defend your stance are:
"Freezer wasn't damaged even when he said he was" and "Freezer recovered his ki when he increased his power to 100%", but you then said that "Freezer recovering his ki" was your mistake so at that point all I've read regarding that is "Freezer wasn't damaged despite he saying he was".
The problem here is that in order to demonstrate that Freezer didn't lose energy you use your own interpretation of full power as "the power Freezer normally has", and to demonstrate that Freezer's full power was the power he normally had and not the one he possibly had at that moment you say that he wasn't injured despite him saying so.
You can't use your own premises or opinions to demonstrate your own opinions or premises, if you want to demonstrate your stance you have to grab a solid fact of the manga that without any doubt invalidates my interpretation of it.

The whole "ki recovery" thing was to explain how Freeza had regained his full power, because I trusted your words as facts. However, after doing some research, it turned out that you were wrong, or at least that what you were saying was an interpretation that I disagree with (and can't agree with because I don't find anything saying that Freeza lost power in that line, but anyway) and not a fact. Furthermore, it also turned out that Freeza was at 70% before powering-up. So, I was wrong, and I admitted my mistake.
I also never said that Freeza wasn't damaged. What I'm saying is that Freeza wasn't damaged enough to lose power, or at least a significant amount of power.

[Kaboom]

Q: When is 100% not 100%?
A: When you're trying to justify your made-up rules for power levels.

This is still the single best response to the thread. Contrary to most other posts within, so much was said with so few words.

Seriously, what's even being debated anymore? Every time I try to read through one of these mega-posts, I start to feel a little queasy. Is it even about Raditz and Nappa's power levels anymore? Is it about Goku versus Freeza? How did the topic diverge to the 'Grade' Super Saiyan states? Someone summarize it for me.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

From what I can see: Freeza wasn't fighting at his highest level of power because of the damage he received from the Genki Dama. Basically, the 100% power he was using was the full-power he had access to at that particular point. Freeza was pretty close to Goku's power before his full-power drained his stamina. Cell's Power Weighted form was/wasn't the same power-up that Freeza used.

[Fionordequester]

Freezamite, I think I'm beginning to understand how you guys got to this point. You DO come off as really condescending, with posts like "your ideas go against the most basic parts of common sense" and stuff like that. Honestly, your detractors are being really patient, not closing this thread, and still being willing to debate you. I encourage you to find a better way of stating your disagreements, but, it's your choice.

EDIT: I mean heck, even if you DO think your opponent is a world class idiot, you're not supposed to say that. A simple "...I'm confused by what you're saying, and I don't see how you could possibly be right because..." does just fine.

[freezamite]

Yes, and what we are discussing is if this 70% was relative to the energy he had at that moment, or if it was an absolute term. You are continuously ignoring what you're said in order to progress in the discussion. Don't you see how I'm quoting you and answering to your exact arguments one after the other? Why are you not answering to mines and only taking into account your own vision of that line?

Because as I've already said a tons of times, I disagree with your interpretation. I just can't interpret it like that. There is nothing else to say, really.

Well then, that's the same as admitting that you can't admit that you're wrong on anything. In fact, now I've looked for the "I already admitted that Raditz couldn't be 1500" and no, you were defending Raditz being at 1500 all the time.

Let's take 2 examples:

• By your logic, if a bottle of water is half-empty, it's full because it is the maximum amount of water it has at the point, even though it's possible to fill more water.
• By your logic, the battery of a mobile phone is always at 100%, even though my mobile phone's battery says that it is at 7%.

I can't believe you're trying to do what you're doing. That has to be one of the worst manipulations I've ever seen. Look, I know this page is called Kanzenshuu and that previously it was something like "Danzenshuu". The reason this site has gained this popularity are those guides, and you're personally invested on defending them at any cost.
From fallacy to fallacy, or you can't even understand the most basic explanations which I doubt it's the case, or you have personal interests on that discussion. This is beyond ridiculous and those examples have nothing to do with what I explained to you. Here is what I said, and THAT STANDS TRUE NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU TRY TO MANIPULATE IT:

If I grab a bottle of 1 litter of capacity, I cut the upper half of it, I throw that cut half to the rubbish can and then I fill the remaining bottom half with water, then that bottom half is full no matter if the bottle was once able to contain 1 litter of water and it's correct to say that the recipient it's at full capacity now. And of course, you could also say that this bottle now only contains half the amount of water it contained yesterday when it was also full.

If it was the same case, Freeza would be permanently weaker from the damage from the Genki Dama.

Can't I grab the cut part of the bottle from the rubbish can and fix it? This has nothing to do with anything being temporal or permanent. While the bottle has the upper half cut, then it's full capacity is the bottom half. If then I grab the upper half and I paste it to the bottom half, so the bottle can be used again as if it was new, then the full capacity it's he full bottle again.
On the same regards, while Freezer or anyone else without infinite energy is injured he simply can't use the energy/stamina he lost, so the bottle of Ki has been clearly cut. Until that bottle of ki is reattached (or the injured one is healed) then the same logic can be applied.
If you can't understand that this is what I'm saying (even if you disagree with it, at least answer to that) but you've been able to open your computer, go to the internet and register here by yourself, is because you are personally invested on that discussion.

Anyways, in DB the energy lost due to injuries CAN'T BE USED AGAIN unless those injuries are healed or something else compensates for the energy lost. It wasn't Freezer's case unless you can demonstrate it, it was what the author said he drew and it's what's coherent with the rest of the manga. STOP MANIPULATING OTHER'S PEOPLES ARGUMENTS IN ORDER TO DEFEND YOUR STANCE.

Do you have any example that shows someone saying something like "I'm using my full power right now, even though I've lost power"?

I don't need to find anything like that to demonstrate what I'm saying, because at the end, I'm doing a literal interpretation of what's said in the context it's said. I know you say that thinking that, since no other character has ever fought using only a fraction of his power until the very end of the fight, I won't be able to find any other example of anything resembling that.
But since you insist on it, yes, I have an equivalent quote reserved for you:

Chapter: 218 (DBZ 24), P14.2-6
Context: after Tenshinhan fires the Kikoho at Nappa
Nappa: “Phew…You really gave me a scare…!”
Vegeta: “That idiot, he used up all his power and died pointlessly…”

How could Ten Shin Han use "all" his power if he had been absolutely destroyed by Nappa, to the point where he had one arm cut and received some serious injuries? Because "All" in that context means "all he had left" and not "all he normally has".

Since this is you manipulating what I'm saying, and this has obviously reached the personal investment phase of a discussion where everything is valid in order to not admit that you're wrong, I don't see it worth to discuss this any more.

When someone is literally almost dead, he is unconscious wit fatal injuries, and his heart is about to stop. Freeza however could stand & move normally, and never lost consciousness. He saw a ki attack coming at him that he couldn't stop because it was stronger than him, and he shit his pants. It exploded, it hurt like a bitch, it took a part of his tail, but he didn't lost consciousness or any other part of himself.

The problem is that your point is that he didn't lose any energy. Oh, and since the Genkidama impacted him, Goku & the others had enough time to go to an island to rest and chat for a while, so it's obvious that if Freezer didn't appear until that time passed it was because he may have lost consciousness during a short period of time or couldn't move due to the pain until some time had passed.
Freezer was injured, that's the valid point, and he lost energy, not only confirmed by his words but also by Toriyama. You have nothing against that besides your lies and manipulations.

Well yeah, he should have lost ki since he lost half of his body, but that wasn't the point of Goku's statement.

I don't care about the point of Goku's statement, I used that statement (among tons of other statements) to demonstrate that injuries makes someone to lose part of their power.

Goku was clearly

You are clearly lying and manipulating. If you want to think that the 100% Freezer vs Goku SSJ was more uneven than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta then be my guest, that's not what was drawn on the manga.

Did they both increase their muscles? However, did Cell increased his muscles even more? It's not exactly the same thing, but it has the same logic, only that Cell & Trunks went beyond the level Freeza & Vegeta went. Freeza got big, Cell got even bigger, and then even bigger in Cell Games, but in the end, both of them got bigger than normal, no?

Size doesn't means anything in DB. Cell technique and Freezer technique had nothing to do with them because Cell in fact transformed himself (he was able to use 100% of his power before) while Freezer simply forced his body to its limit in order to power up to 100%.
They're not going by the same principles, because they're described as something totally different.

I never saw Vegeta losing stamina as well, but it is implied from the fact that Goku, and Vegeta & Trunks after him, decides to stop using it and focus on regular Super Saiyan. If stamina wasn't the problem with Grade 2, then I don't know what the problem was, but Goku says that the only problems with Grade 3 are the decrease in speed & the fast ki consumption, and we know that speed isn't an issue with Grade 2.

There are tons of other possibilities. Grade 2 was the result of physically training the body, while SSJ had to be evolved mastering the SSJ Ki. There can be made tons of speculations regarding Grade 2, but to assume it has a problem with stamina when we saw Vegeta using it during a lot of times and such a problem wasn't seen or described is to invent something because it interest to you, like that Pilaf = Perfect Cell "theory" of mine.

I'm not ignoring or evading your points, I just disagree with them.

No, you've been manipulating my words, and then disagreed with the manipulated words. That's beyond evading my point.

This is still the single best response to the thread. Contrary to most other posts within, so much was said with so few words.

Yes, that's saying two things at that point: We will manipulate what you're saying to defend our stance at any cost.

If only a normal user had done that I wouldn't say this, but this is a moderator here and It seems that this page has economical interests on defending at all costs those guides, and I don't like to discuss with people that purposely lie about something because have personal interest on defending a concrete stance no matter what.
This is the "daizenshuu" site with the name a bit changed, and it's of course defending what's said on the daizenshuu guides because people comes here expecting to find information explained there. Of course, if those guides lose credibility even if it's only on a tiny part of them, this site can be economically affected in a negative way, so all kinds of manipulations and fallacies are used to defend them at any cost.

Go ahead and erase everything I've said on that forum among with my user account, because it will be the only way you will impose your fallacious view of the manga to anyone.

Is it even about Raditz and Nappa's power levels anymore?

Raditz and Nappa's power levels were demonstrated wrong in my last message, to the point where even personal interests couldn't negate it. As I said, the only way to defend your economical interests earned upon imposing to the Dragon Ball fanbase a single vision of the facts that even contradicts the author himself is to erase those threads.
You've also closed a lot of threads because what was discussed wasn't what you opined of the manga, so go ahead with that one too.

From what I can see: Freeza wasn't fighting at his highest level of power because of the damage he received from the Genki Dama. Basically, the 100% power he was using was the full-power he had access to at that particular point. Freeza was pretty close to Goku's power before his full-power drained his stamina. Cell's Power Weighted form was/wasn't the same power-up that Freeza used.

If you don't want your account erased you would do better eliminating this post. It's pretty obvious that there are economical interests here that go above what's said or drawn on the manga.
This is not a DB discussion forum, but a Daizenshuu is right while the manga is wrong forum, and that could be interpreted as going against the rules.
I had been insulted and mocked for defending my stance, my words have been clearly manipulated and the truth doesn't matter. I'm a newbie, I came here to kill some time and to discuss about my favourite MANGA and I can afford to go against this page's economical interests.
You have 10 times the amount of messages posted I have, so loosing your account won't be to you the same as it will be to me by any means.

Regards.

Freezamite, I think I'm beginning to understand how you guys got to this point. You DO come off as really condescending, with posts like "your ideas go against the most basic parts of common sense" and stuff like that.

When I said that line was when I thought those were legit posts with flawed logic behind. Now it has been demonstrated by a moderator that this page has economical interests that go beyond what's said or written on the manga.
I may sound condescending when I still didn't think there were economical interests on that, but at least I haven't lied to anyone in order to defend my stance, and speaking of condescension here are a few posts directed to me:

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

An example of how to discuss something. Of course, approved by the moderation.

100% Freeza is 120 million. Was shown and confirmed in the Daizenshuus and nothing will change that. Fan material does not compare and holds no ground next to official material. Continuing to argue about this will not end well in your favor.

This literally means "stop saying the Daizenshuu is 100% right or you will be banned". Great.

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

This. I've seen this as well. No way in hell Freeza = Perfect Cell. I'm sorry if this is rude. But Freeza being equal to Cell is so illogical that only a Freeza fanboy would think of it. I'm sorry once again but it's been stated and proven many times that Freeza < Cyborgs < CELL. Did you IGNORE THE DAIZENSHUU?

Yes, how could I ignore that the DAIZENSHUU can't be wrong by any means and that Toriyama is a fool unable to write two lines of dialogue without contradicting himself?

After I replied saying that the Daizenshuu may be wrong in some aspects:

Yeah, this is a waste of time. Gonna take a page from dbzfan with this one.

After someone asks somebody to "calm down" that this is only a "discussion about a cartoon series":

Please lock it indeed. This thread is going nowhere.

So whoever has a different stance than the one defended by this page's staff hasn't the right to even opine.
Of course, the thread was closed not even 3 hours after the request was made, but before this had to be said by the administrator of the page:

This nonsense is not welcome... You're proving that you're a joke, not to be taken seriously, and one to simply overlook and never given a second thought.

I took that as a general warning to everyone, and most and foremost to the ones that entered my thread insulting me, but it seems it clearly was a direct advise to me. Stop going against this page's interests, well, I simply won't censure myself. "Sorry".

All those quotes are from one single thread of mine, and there are tons and tons of posts like that on nearly every single thread I've opened (the only one without them being the one about Ki-detection/scoutters), so this is not about condescension because if anyone has been treated with condescension that has been me and it was fine as long as this condescension was used to defend this page's interests.

My mistake has been, in front of what clearly was a rude manipulation, to think that it simply was someone being wrong and that's is why I said lines like "that's not logical by any means". It wasn't logical, but it hadn't the intent to be logical since the beginning. This is about defending the Daizenshuu guides at any costs, well then, I'm saying here that for me THE MANGA IS ABOVE THE GUIDES, and that, EVERY TIME A GUIDE WILL CONTRADICT WHAT'S SAID ON THE MANGA I WILL GO WITH THE MANGA UNLESS THE MANGA CAN BE PROVEN WRONG USING FACTS ALSO STATED ON THE MANGA.

Is this stance against this page's implicit rules? Well, then, you're free to erase my posts and my account, because I'm telling you right now that I WON'T RESPECT THAT "DAIZENSHUU IS RIGHT AND THE MANGA SHIT" RULE.

[Hugo Boss]

If only a normal user had done that I wouldn't say this, but this is a moderator here and It seems that this page has economical interests on defending at all costs those guides, and I don't like to discuss with people that purposely lie about something because have personal interest on defending a concrete stance no matter what.

This is the "daizenshuu" site with the name a bit changed, and it's of course defending what's said on the daizenshuu guides because people comes here expecting to find information explained there. Of course, if those guides lose credibility even if it's only on a tiny part of them, this site can be economically affected in a negative way, so all kinds of manipulations and fallacies are used to defend them at any cost.

Go ahead and erase everything I've said on that forum among with my user account, because it will be the only way you will impose your fallacious view of the manga to anyone.

Well, I'm a normal user so I can speak for myself. I don't have any particular interest in defending Daizenshuu so I don't believe the other users have. I think the guides are just the start point for discussions, not the end.

Raditz and Nappa's power levels were demonstrated wrong in my last message, to the point where even personal interests couldn't negate it. As I said, the only way to defend your economical interests earned upon imposing to the Dragon Ball fanbase a single vision of the facts that even contradicts the author himself is to erase those threads.

Though I have problem to understand Nappa's powerlevel being at 4.000, I'm ok with Raditz being at 1.500. I already have posted some of my opinion in this thread about why I believe Nappa's powerlevel would be wrong but now I think it's just a conventional number that serves for comparison. Nappa managed to give Goku some fight after using the sparking aura, but maybe that was just him giving everything he has gotten and Goku blocked every single movement including the kappa technique. Remember he used a rapid-fire kamehameha, not a full power version of it.

Go away. You are factually wrong. I've seen you post this bullshit on multiple forums. Why do you have such a hard on for Freeza anyway? Just accept you're wrong, no one will believe your dumb fan fiction and stop posting.

An example of how to discuss something. Of course, approved by the moderation.

Maybe because your posts are too long, it's difficult to detect.

If you don't want your account erased you would do better eliminating this post. It's pretty obvious that there are economical interests here that go above what's said or drawn on the manga.

I don't think so. I just think you are having a problem to accept a disagreement in this particular subject. I read all your posts, by the way.

This is not a DB discussion forum, but a Daizenshuu is right while the manga is wrong forum, and that could be interpreted as going against the rules.

I had been insulted and mocked for defending my stance, my words have been clearly manipulated and the truth doesn't matter. I'm a newbie, I came here to kill some time and to discuss about my favourite MANGA and I can afford to go against this page's economical interests.

You have 10 times the amount of messages posted I have, so loosing your account won't be to you the same as it will be to me by any means.

Regards.

Well, it is implied to be In-Universe discussion, so every opinion can be accepted since it doesn't desrespect another. I'm a newbie too, but I can discuss on the same level as an old-school, we can learn things from each other. It's not a good attitude to use this page's economical interests against it. When a discussion is not good for us, it's better to leave for a moment, trust me.

[Rocketman]

You didn't come here to discuss, you came here to preach.

You shout down any and every differing view because you are the sole possessor of The Truth, and now you've graduated to screaming that everyone besides you is a liar or somehow involved in A Conspiracy To Silence The Manga.

[Fionordequester]

When I said that line was when I thought those were legit posts with flawed logic behind. Now it has been demonstrated by a moderator that this page has economical interests that go beyond what's said or written on the manga.
I may sound condescending when I still didn't think there were economical interests on that, but at least I haven't lied to anyone in order to defend my stance, and speaking of condescension here are a few posts directed to me:

So? Two wrongs don't make a right. Besides, if any stranger were to come upon your posts, what do you think would look better to them? One stranger mocking someone who has constantly been polite and reasonable the whole time, or TWO strangers mocking each other out? In one, there's one you can sympathize with, but with the other...well, they're BOTH morons!

Now it has been demonstrated by a moderator that this page has economical interests that go beyond what's said or written on the manga.

And how do you know that? How do you know it's that, and not just them having a different opinion?

[VegettoEX]

You didn't come here to discuss, you came here to preach.

You shout down any and every differing view because you are the sole possessor of The Truth, and now you've graduated to screaming that everyone besides you is a liar or somehow involved in A Conspiracy To Silence The Manga.

This basically sums it up.

freezamite, at this point you've established a pattern beyond the requirement for a full and permanent account ban. However, were I to do that right now, you would never be able to read this message, so let this be your final warning.

You have a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what Kanzenshuu is, and have now wandered into unbelievable conspiracy-theory territory. You are consistently rude, abrasive, and condescending toward other members. Your contributions are long-winded, generally without any merit, and cancerous with regard to breeding further, genuine conversation.

Enough is enough. Seriously. That's it. In fact, this is it. The very single next rude post you ever make will result in the aforementioned complete and permanent ban from the entirety of the website. This includes the forum, yes, but also every single last guide, news post, and translation that we make available. You will have absolutely zero access to any of it.

If you find any value whatsoever in anything you have access to on the entirety of the kanzenshuu.com domain, you will make an immediate and lasting change in the way you address your fellow fans.

If you don't, that will be that. You've made this into a completely embarrassing mess of melodramatic nonsense where we have to babysit you, and we simply don't have the time, resources, energy, or desire to do so.

You clearly need us more than we need you at this point. Prove us wrong.

[Fionordequester]

One thing I would advise is perhaps leaving for a month or so, and then just coming back saying calm and amiable things. That's what I did when I ended up in a similar situation as you on Something Awful. And believe me, if you think the dude's on HERE are rude and mocking, then well...you don't really know rude and mocking till you've asked someone to censor some sexual material in a Something Awful thread, and have had people respond by literally paying $10 bucks to change your avatar into a Naked Zombie Chick with her breasts fully exposed (complete with my signature being changed to that same complaint I typed out), or a close-up picture of some woman's cleavage, or have had almost everyone call you an idiot. Seriously.

Yet even then, the next thing I know, a month later, I start a Let's Play, and suddenly, I get tons of compliments on how wonderful it is, and have thus far been posting there for a month without anyone whatsoever making any reference to the huge storm of garbage that got me probated for a month (which was partially my fault for not having enough tact, a weakness of mine)...

Heck, now I'll even go as far as to say that Something Awful doesn't deserve it's reputation, so much as it just has a few bad apples here and there...which is basically the case for most ANY large website in the world. I got mistreated ONCE, sure, but on the whole, it was a pretty grand experience with lots of funny dudes!

[ABED]

My thoughts, battle powers don't make much sense, so I wouldn't put much thought into the numbers.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm a freaking manipulator & liar? Seriously? Can you explain how?

Well then, that's the same as admitting that you can't admit that you're wrong on anything. In fact, now I've looked for the "I already admitted that Raditz couldn't be 1500" and no, you were defending Raditz being at 1500 all the time.

Look closer.

maybe the 1.500 really isn't a good number for Raditz.

Anyways, in DB the energy lost due to injuries CAN'T BE USED AGAIN unless those injuries are healed or something else compensates for the energy lost. It wasn't Freezer's case unless you can demonstrate it, it was what the author said he drew and it's what's coherent with the rest of the manga. STOP MANIPULATING OTHER'S PEOPLES ARGUMENTS IN ORDER TO DEFEND YOUR STANCE.

Are you sure? Because after Cell returned to Earth after he exploded, he got a power-up that made his power rival that of SS2 Gohan. Gohan had lost over half of his power, yet later, he managed to kill Cell, even though Piccolo noticed that Gohan's power is inferior to Cell's when the Kamehamehas clashed. Which means that Gohan's ki returned to full power, or at least close to full power & definitely went over 50% when he went all out & killed Cell.

But since you insist on it, yes, I have an equivalent quote reserved for you:

Chapter: 218 (DBZ 24), P14.2-6
Context: after Tenshinhan fires the Kikoho at Nappa
Nappa: “Phew…You really gave me a scare…!”
Vegeta: “That idiot, he used up all his power and died pointlessly…”

How could Ten Shin Han use "all" his power if he had been absolutely destroyed by Nappa, to the point where he had one arm cut and received some serious injuries? Because "All" in that context means "all he had left" and not "all he normally has".

Using all of his power & using his full power are two very different things. Is English your mother language? Because it isn't for me, and I can tell the difference.

The problem is that your point is that he didn't lose any energy. Oh, and since the Genkidama impacted him, Goku & the others had enough time to go to an island to rest and chat for a while, so it's obvious that if Freezer didn't appear until that time passed it was because he may have lost consciousness during a short period of time or couldn't move due to the pain until some time had passed.
Freezer was injured, that's the valid point, and he lost energy, not only confirmed by his words but also by Toriyama. You have nothing against that besides your lies and manipulations.

When did Freeza & Toriyama said that Freeza lost energy?

Goku was clearly

You are clearly lying and manipulating. If you want to think that the 100% Freezer vs Goku SSJ was more uneven than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta then be my guest, that's not what was drawn on the manga.

(I was supposed to write more than this in my previous post, but probably forgot to with all this mass of texts)

Let's see how the fight with Vegeta & Dodoria went:

Spoiler:

Vegeta catches Dodoria by surprise.

Spoiler:

A scared Dodoria desperately attacks, with Vegeta dodging everything & catching his hits. Let's not forget that when someone is calm instead of scared, he fights better.

Spoiler:

Dodoria runs away desperately, and Vegeta's ki blast hits the unguarded Dodoria.

Now, let's see how the fight went before Freeza's power started to fall.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P14.3-4
Context: after full power Freeza beats up on Goku
Freeza: “How was that? That just now was a warm up exercise for the final attack that I’m about to show you.”
Goku: “…I figured…I’d have been disappointed if you were at that kind of level…”

Freeza attacks, and Goku smiles & mocks him after that.

Spoiler:

Freeza attacks, Goku dodges & counter-attacks.

Spoiler:

Freeza manages to hit Goku with a surprise attack.

After they start fighting again later:

Spoiler:

Freeza manages to hit Goku a few times, but not strong enough to stop him from doing counter-attacks. And at some point there, Freeza's power also starts to drop.
Then Goku gave up, Freeza used Kienzan, got sliced, got almost killed.

What you are saying is that SS Goku is stronger than Freeza only because Freeza is injured, no? Well, Goku disagrees with you.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

SS Goku is stronger that 100% Full Power Freeza. And since Kaio-ken x20 Goku was weaker or equal with 50% Freeza, it means that the 100% Full Power Freeza we saw was stronger than 50% Freeza before the Genki Dama, and SS Goku is stronger than Kaio-ken x20 Goku, meaning that Super Saiyan gives a greater boost than that of Kaio-ken x20, meaning that the SS multiplier is above 40.

Size doesn't means anything in DB.

It only means something when a strong character gets bigger.

Cell technique and Freezer technique had nothing to do with them because Cell in fact transformed himself (he was able to use 100% of his power before) while Freezer simply forced his body to its limit in order to power up to 100%.
They're not going by the same principles, because they're described as something totally different.

"100%" is just a term. This was the strongest state that Freeza could use, so this was his 100% power. Goku in Boo arc could go up to SS3, so this was his 100% power. Gohan in the Cell Games could go up to enraged SS2, so that was his 100% power. Cell could increase his muscles & power up to that point, so that was his 100% power. His full power when he powered up without increasing his muscles was his full power in that state, which was the best state for him to fight, not his full power in general. Just like in Boo arc, when Goku was fighting with Vegeta, he was using his full power in SS2, but not his full power in SS3, which is his full power in general.

There are tons of other possibilities. Grade 2 was the result of physically training the body, while SSJ had to be evolved mastering the SSJ Ki. There can be made tons of speculations regarding Grade 2, but to assume it has a problem with stamina when we saw Vegeta using it during a lot of times and such a problem wasn't seen or described is to invent something because it interest to you, like that Pilaf = Perfect Cell "theory" of mine.

Goku specifically says this:

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…”

Goku says that the issues of Grade 3 are speed loss & fast ki consumption, and says that Super Saiyan (Grade 1) is the most balanced form. But since Grade 2 doesn't decrease speed, but increases it from what we saw, it means that the only problem with it is it's fast ki consumption (not at the same rate as Grade 3), and since Grade 1 is the most balanced form, it implies that power & speed are more balanced, and that the ki consumption is smaller compared to Grades 2 & 3 (we know there is ki consumption, since their goal was to eliminate it by mastering Super Saiyan). Plus, FP Freeza & SSG2 have the similar size, and they have similar sizes in their SS & 70% states. So, the ki consumption is probably similar as well, since Muten Roshi's Max Power & Cell's Power-Weighted states also have similar drawbacks.

EVERY TIME A GUIDE WILL CONTRADICT WHAT'S SAID ON THE MANGA I WILL GO WITH THE MANGA UNLESS THE MANGA CAN BE PROVEN WRONG USING FACTS ALSO STATED ON THE MANGA.

Except that we don't see any contradiction in the manga to disregard the Daizenshuu & other guide in this case. No one has Daizenshuu > Manga, we just take the Daizenshuu as facts when we don't believe that they contradict the manga.

My thoughts, battle powers don't make much sense, so I wouldn't put much thought into the numbers.

I agree. Their only purpose was to show who is strongest than who, and even Toriyama said that we shouldn't take the numbers he throws seriously.

[Kaboom]

You know what I find extra funny? People like to cite Vegeta's "fights" against Zarbon and Dodoria as examples of why certain guidebook numbers just can't be correct because the gaps are too small by comparison? Then they claim that to disbelieve their findings goes against the manga.

Well, Zarbon and Dodoria's power levels were never given in the manga. Only in the Daizenshuu, right in there along with Raditz's 1500, Nappa's 4000, and Freeza's 120 million. So you're either calling foul on certain guidebook numbers by citing other guidebook numbers, which is self-contradictory, or you're basing your criticism of them on your own made-up numbers for those two, which anyone must realize doesn't hold any weight.

[RandomGuy96]

You know what I find extra funny? People like to cite Vegeta's "fights" against Zarbon and Dodoria as examples of why certain guidebook numbers just can't be correct because the gaps are too small by comparison? Then they claim that to disbelieve their findings goes against the manga.

Well, Zarbon and Dodoria's power levels were never given in the manga. Only in the Daizenshuu, right there alongside Raditz's 1500, Nappa's 4000, and Freeza's 120 million. So you're either calling foul on certain guidebook numbers by citing other guidebook numbers, which is self-contradictory, or you're using made-up numbers for those two, which anyone must realize doesn't hold any weight.

They probably run the logic that Dodoria has to be decently stronger than 18,000 given what he said about Vegeta, which doesn't leave any room in between Vegeta's pre-healing boost 18,000 and post-healing 24,000. Or want to discredit the guidebooks by saying "See? They contradict themselves!".

Hopefully, Toriyama's comments on BOG will finally put an end to this.

"I suppose if Beerus' strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."

[freezamite]

Though I have problem to understand Nappa's powerlevel being at 4.000, I'm ok with Raditz being at 1.500. I already have posted some of my opinion in this thread about why I believe Nappa's powerlevel would be wrong but now I think it's just a conventional number that serves for comparison. Nappa managed to give Goku some fight after using the sparking aura, but maybe that was just him giving everything he has gotten and Goku blocked every single movement including the kappa technique. Remember he used a rapid-fire kamehameha, not a full power version of it.

Nappa's sparkling aura was also there when Nappa powered up before Goku's arrival. Even if it was a rapid-fire kamehame, Nappa's technique was also of the rapid-fire type, which means that it didn't have that much energy concentrated on it.

Regarding Raditz's 1500, look at what Vegeta says regarding Gohan's lecture at 1307. In my opinion that phrase invalidates Raditz being at 1500.

I just think you are having a problem to accept a disagreement in this particular subject.

I've looked twice at those pages, and some of those replies were moderated and I just didn't notice it. So two things I have to say regarding that:
1. That last message of mine, the one with the conspiracy theory, has been one of the most embarrassing posts I've ever written. Of course I won't edit a single coma of it, not because I don't regret some of the things I said there, but because it's an example of how not to behave on those circumstances.
2. Where I have the problem is not on the disagreement, but in what I thought was a difference in treatment (and that was entirely my fault) and on putting on my mouth things that I've never said. Regarding that thing of manipulating my words, I still think that some users did it when they transformed my stance of "full/all can refer to what's possible (relative meaning) and not only to what's normal (absolute meaning)" to "100% is not 100%" though. It could have also been a misunderstanding though...

You didn't come here to discuss, you came here to preach.

I don't think so. It's simply that I don't think that discussing means agreeing with things that I don't agree with. If I came here to preach, I wouldn't have admitted some errors I gladly admitted.
I won't say "Yes" to things that from my point of view are a "No". Plain and simple.

So? Two wrongs don't make a right. Besides, if any stranger were to come upon your posts, what do you think would look better to them? One stranger mocking someone who has constantly been polite and reasonable the whole time, or TWO strangers mocking each other out? In one, there's one you can sympathize with, but with the other...well, they're BOTH morons!

True.

And how do you know that? How do you know it's that, and not just them having a different opinion?

I said what I said based on a misjudgement of mine. It's just that I didn't notice that people that had been banned were banned, and I jumped to conclusions purely based on that. My fault.

You have a complete and fundamental misunderstanding of what Kanzenshuu is, and have now wandered into unbelievable conspiracy-theory territory. You are consistently rude, abrasive, and condescending toward other members. Your contributions are long-winded, generally without any merit, and cancerous with regard to breeding further, genuine conversation.

Enough is enough. Seriously. That's it. In fact, this is it. The very single next rude post you ever make will result in the aforementioned complete and permanent ban from the entirety of the website. This includes the forum, yes, but also every single last guide, news post, and translation that we make available. You will have absolutely zero access to any of it.

In my defence I would say that the tone of my messages has been in line with the ones directed at me. That being said, all that last post of mine (or the part speaking of these site "interests") was embarrassing to say the least, and so was my attitude on some other posts. I don't think that saying "sorry" is enough to compensate for it, and of course I will change my attitude from here onwards.
This is as much of a sincere "sorry" as it can possibly be, and not only a reaction to that warning of yours. I didn't see that you (as the staff in general) took actions in regards to those posts, and as I said, jumped to conclusions completely. That conspiracy theory has been something that was on my mind since the first moment I (mistakenly) thought that the disrespectful posts directed at me weren't moderated, and of course, since I thought there were other interests besides discussing here I also acted more rudely than what I should.

I'm a Dragon Ball fan that have fun discussing about Dragon Ball, mostly in topics related to power-scaling. If I registered here was to discuss with other fans, and while I immensely appreciate your job on providing proper translations about the manga and other related material, that wasn't the reason I registered. In other words, I want to discuss about Dragon Ball and I want to do it well, so if there's some kind of "permission system" implemented that would allow you to ban me from those resources while giving me another opportunity on this forum, then I think that I deserve it completely.

I insist in that I didn't see that measures had been taken to those other users, and I acted like a total paranoid insulting and accusing you and the rest of the staff of things that you never did.

If you don't, that will be that. You've made this into a completely embarrassing mess of melodramatic nonsense where we have to babysit you, and we simply don't have the time, resources, energy, or desire to do so.

You clearly need us more than we need you at this point. Prove us wrong.

Well, I didn't see the "banned" under some users that insulted me. It's as you say an embarrassing post because it was full of accusations based on nothing but a misunderstanding of mine.
On the other hand, I'm using your website to discuss about DB and also it's resources to learn more about it. Not that "need" would be the word I would use to describe that (it's DB after all, not anything truly important), but it's of course me that's more interested on what you offer than of course your page about someone posting his own vision of the series as thousands of other uses also do. What I mean is that I'm perfectly conscious that I'm only one among thousands, nothing more and nothing less.

One thing I would advise is perhaps leaving for a month or so, and then just coming back saying calm and amiable things. That's what I did when I ended up in a similar situation as you on Something Awful. And believe me, if you think the dude's on HERE are rude and mocking, then well...you don't really know rude and mocking till you've asked someone to censor some sexual material in a Something Awful thread, and have had people respond by literally paying $10 bucks to change your avatar into a Naked Zombie Chick with her breasts fully exposed (complete with my signature being changed to that same complaint I typed out), or a close-up picture of some woman's cleavage, or have had almost everyone call you an idiot. Seriously.

Yet even then, the next thing I know, a month later, I start a Let's Play, and suddenly, I get tons of compliments on how wonderful it is, and have thus far been posting there for a month without anyone whatsoever making any reference to the huge storm of garbage that got me probated for a month (which was partially my fault for not having enough tact, a weakness of mine)...

Heck, now I'll even go as far as to say that Something Awful doesn't deserve it's reputation, so much as it just has a few bad apples here and there...which is basically the case for most ANY large website in the world. I got mistreated ONCE, sure, but on the whole, it was a pretty grand experience with lots of funny dudes!

Thanks for the advise, although our cases weren't even comparable in the sense that what offended me (besides those insults that were moderated) was just my paranoia. So more than leaving for a week or month (if I didn't realize how wrong I was I probably would have come again with the intention of getting me banned from this site with another "stellar" message), I think that what I have to do at this point is to apologize to everyone.

I'm a freaking manipulator & liar? Seriously? Can you explain how?

I may have jumped to conclusions. But "100% is not 100%" is not what I said by any means and I thought that you put that into my mouth to manipulate my stance.

Look closer.

maybe the 1.500 really isn't a good number for Raditz.

True. I didn't see that.

Are you sure? Because after Cell returned to Earth after he exploded, he got a power-up that made his power rival that of SS2 Gohan.

Yes, he regenerated through a special cell he had that not only restored all his ki healing him completely, but it also gave him his Perfect Form without the need of having #18 absorbed.

Gohan had lost over half of his power, yet later, he managed to kill Cell, even though Piccolo noticed that Gohan's power is inferior to Cell's when the Kamehamehas clashed. Which means that Gohan's ki returned to full power, or at least close to full power & definitely went over 50% when he went all out & killed Cell.

There was never a serious clash between Gohan and Cell on the manga. Cell was always confident and mocking Gohan, he was playing with Gohan the whole time until Vegeta enters the scene, which was at the precise point that Cell was going for the kill.
Since Cell was attacked by surprise he couldn't react to Gohan's sudden surprise attack, and that attack was a KameHame, which we know is more powerful than a normal punch.
In other words, that kame-hame clash was all of it done under special conditions that compensated the difference between Cell and Gohan, it never contradicted Gohan having only half his normal strength because Cell was killed without having a chance of defending himself.

Using all of his power & using his full power are two very different things. Is English your mother language? Because it isn't for me, and I can tell the difference.

No, English it's not my mother language, and in fact that can be what makes you say that "all" and "full" aren't the same. Both full and all are relative to what you refer to.
As I demonstrated with the example of the bottle, full can also be used in those two context:
"All that it normally contains/has".
"All that it can possibly have".

Both meanings are equally valid. When Freezer said that he would use his full power I took that with the second meaning, since he was (besides how injured he was left) still only fighting with 50% of his remaining strength. Since every single character loses energy when he is injured, I assumed that when he said "full power" he meant "all the power I can possibly release at this point" because his injuries were never healed or anything and it made sense to me on the context of the manga.

If this is a semantic issue, then I have to say that I grabbed the definition of "full" from an english dictionary so I'm pretty sure that "full" can be used on the context I've used it. If an english native speaker can help us regarding that, the better.

When did Freeza & Toriyama said that Freeza lost energy?

Freezer said he was badly injured, and going by the series, that means that he lost energy. The way he expresses on chapter 317 after coming back from the Genkidama explosion also points towards injuries affecting his energy. On chapter 323 Freezer says something on the lines of "If I get stuck on the explosion (of Namek) I will lose even more energy than I already have" (there isn't a translation of that phrase on the strength checker, but the version of the manga I rely on when I can't use any of Herm's translations has been mostly accurate), on chapter 325 we know Freezer loses energy not only for becoming tired, but also for becoming injured (he clearly can't even fly after being cut by his own kienzans).

On the other hand, Toriyama saying that he drew the SSJ with a 10x increase over Goku's previous strength and not the 50x it's said on the guides also confirms that he had the intention of lowering Freezer's strength with the Genkidama attack.

Let's see how the fight with Vegeta & Dodoria went:
Vegeta catches Dodoria by surprise.

That surprise attack was soft enough to not harm Dodoria. Vegeta didn't have the intention to go for a kill or even to severely injure Dodoria there.

A scared Dodoria desperately attacks, with Vegeta dodging everything & catching his hits. Let's not forget that when someone is calm instead of scared, he fights better.

Emotions affect on how well one can fight, but being scared is never pointed as a reason to not being able to fight at 100%. In fact, Freezer was also scared when Goku quit the match...

Freeza attacks, and Goku smiles & mocks him after that.

You forget to mention that Freezer attack was also a mock on Goku, because it was done as a warming up. In other words, Goku mocks Freezer after Freezer has tried to mock Goku.

Freeza attacks, Goku dodges & counter-attacks.

More like:
Freezer attacks, Goku tries to counter-attack, Freezer dodges and connects an energy attack with the aim to distract Goku and catch him from behind, Goku realizes that, dodges and then counter-attacks with a hit to Freezer's head and throwing him away.

Freeza manages to hit Goku with a surprise attack.

Do you see the bottom part of page 127 where Freezer and Goku are going all out with their respective attacks, and none of them can surpass the other one with pure strength? Goku is clearly trying his best on the bottom-left panel of that page, even if he couldn't possibly expect Freezer dodging the KameHame, Freezer clearly hold up well enough against it.

Freeza manages to hit Goku a few times, but not strong enough to stop him from doing counter-attacks. And at some point there, Freeza's power also starts to drop.

Which can't be said from Dodoria, who couldn't even hit Vegeta once no matter how he tried it.

And I would add another part of the fight that in my opinion is also key. After Freezer hits Goku with his attack and Goku arises from the bottom of the lake tired and injured, Freezer mocks Krilin and Goku's anger restores his power again.

What you are saying is that SS Goku is stronger than Freeza only because Freeza is injured, no? Well, Goku disagrees with you.

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P9.1
Context: Goku continues to explains why he doesn’t feel like fighting Freeza anymore
Goku: “I’m already satisfied. Your pride is in tatters…Someone has appeared who surpasses you, Freeza, who supposedly no one in this world could surpass…And this person was merely a Saiyan…”

Goku also told Ginyu that he was stronger and used KK to fool him, and it's also done by other characters in other circumstances (Vegeta for example fools #20 with the same kind of trick). In other words, Goku wanted to humiliate Freezer, and even if it was thanks to a Genkidama and the two times he got madly angered at him, he surpassed Freezer at the end.
Goku won, that's undeniable, and in fact both the Genkidama and the "rage boosts" were part of Goku's resources in battle.

SS Goku is stronger that 100% Full Power Freeza. And since Kaio-ken x20 Goku was weaker or equal with 50% Freeza, it means that the 100% Full Power Freeza we saw was stronger than 50% Freeza before the Genki Dama, and SS Goku is stronger than Kaio-ken x20 Goku, meaning that Super Saiyan gives a greater boost than that of Kaio-ken x20, meaning that the SS multiplier is above 40.

Still not seeing how the injuries Freezer had didn't lower his energy despite it being the case in any other fighter. The point of disagreement is purely the meaning we give to "full", and if it's possible to use full in the context I'm using it, then I would like you to explain me which reasons there could be to go with the other meaning. Why didn't Freezer loose energy like everybody else if we know that he in fact looses energy on those scenarios?

"100%" is just a term. This was the strongest state that Freeza could use, so this was his 100% power. Goku in Boo arc could go up to SS3, so this was his 100% power. Gohan in the Cell Games could go up to enraged SS2, so that was his 100% power.

True.

Cell could increase his muscles & power up to that point, so that was his 100% power.

I disagree. The problem here is that Cell's transformation traded speed for power, and this isn't an increase in BP in DB terms. In other words, Freezer powered up to 100% and in the process he doubled both speed, strength and damage resistance.
On the other hand, Cell traded speed for power and became an even worse fighter than he was before the change.

This Cell transformation and Freezer increase to 100% are described as something totally different, and anyone never says they're related on anything. It is, in other words, a totally different transformation with some resembling aspects like the increase in body size.

His full power when he powered up without increasing his muscles was his full power in that state, which was the best state for him to fight, not his full power in general. Just like in Boo arc, when Goku was fighting with Vegeta, he was using his full power in SS2, but not his full power in SS3, which is his full power in general.

WoW. You've put me an example on how "full" can be something circumstantial to the situation, or in other words, you are perfectly aware that Goku could be using his "full power" in SS2 while still not using his real full power (that would be SSJ3).
If that use of the word "full" can be totally used for you without any problem, then why do you act as if you didn't know it?
I mean, copying your phrase, what I'm saying is:
"Just like in Namec arc, when Freezer was fighting with Goku SSJ, he was using his full power in his injured state, but not his full power in a normal condition, which is his full power in general."

I mean, at that point, with the way you've used the word full, you've demonstrated that my way of understanding "full" is also a valid and possible approach. You've done here with Goku the same you've been criticizing me to use with Freezer.
So, if we agree in that "full" can be used on contextualized situations that doesn't mean "full in general", but "full for what's possible at that point" then I think that what has to be done is to discuss if that context Freezer was in when he said he was going at "full power" is a context that could affect his "full power". Don't you agree?

But since Grade 2 doesn't decrease speed, but increases it from what we saw, it means that the only problem with it is it's fast ki consumption (not at the same rate as Grade 3), and since Grade 1 is the most balanced form, it implies that power & speed are more balanced, and that the ki consumption is smaller compared to Grades 2 & 3 (we know there is ki consumption, since their goal was to eliminate it by mastering Super Saiyan).

That's a good point but I think you jump to conclusions. What this quote means is that regular SSJ is more balanced than Grade 2. In other words, imagine that a SSJ with 10 million BP is 10 million in speed/damage resistance/force-power while a SSJ Grade 2 of that same BP would have the equivalent of 8 million in speed and 12 of strength/resistance to say something.
Grade 2 increased the speed in comparison to regular SSJ, but that was also because Vegeta powered up through that way. In other words, he not only went from regular SSJ to SSJ Grade 2 but he also powered up from lets say 5 to 10. Even if those 10 are less balanced than the original 5, it could still be possible for the speed to increase to 7 or 8.

What Goku says is that a regular SSJ with the same BP of a SSJ Grade 2 would be a more balanced fighter. But Vegeta went with Grade 2 much, much, much more time than Freezer went with his 100% bulked state, and Vegeta never had any stamina problem described.

You know what I find extra funny? People like to cite Vegeta's "fights" against Zarbon and Dodoria as examples of why certain guidebook numbers just can't be correct because the gaps are too small by comparison? Then they claim that to disbelieve their findings goes against the manga.

Well, Zarbon and Dodoria's power levels were never given in the manga.

But I have never used the BP that Daizenshuu gives to Dodoria in my examples. I base what I'm saying in the fact that Dodoria considered himself superior to Vegeta's 18000 on earth. For him to be so confident on surpassing Vegeta at 18000, he had at least to be at around 20000. That's the logic I'm using and not the Daizenshuu.

They probably run the logic that Dodoria has to be decently stronger than 18,000 given what he said about Vegeta, which doesn't leave any room in between Vegeta's pre-healing boost 18,000 and post-healing 24,000.

That's exactly what I do.

[Fionordequester]

Awe, so now you're not feeling picked on anymore? WONDERFUL! And yeah...I know what you mean. We all make mistakes, but the good news is that every day we wake up is a brand new opportunity to make a fresh start at things. That's how I look at it anyway, with my long term sins (procastination and laziness and all that).

Anyways, I'd put that stuff at the top then, so that it doesn't get lost under your responses to DBZGTKIDOSH then.