Have you ever cheered for the villain during a fight?

[dbzfan7]

Well Little Kuriboh does a fantastic job to, but he's meant to be taken more for laughs. But he did nail the serious moments that did give me chills.

[KentalSSJ6]

Well Little Kuriboh does a fantastic job to, but he's meant to be taken more for laughs. But he did nail the serious moments that did give me chills.

Off the top of my head, his "Give me some ideas" line was one that stuck with me.

[dbzfan7]

Well Little Kuriboh does a fantastic job to, but he's meant to be taken more for laughs. But he did nail the serious moments that did give me chills.

Off the top of my head, his "Give me some ideas" line was one that stuck with me.

Yep...that line sent chills down my spine..

[Kamiccolo9]

Well Little Kuriboh does a fantastic job to, but he's meant to be taken more for laughs. But he did nail the serious moments that did give me chills.

Off the top of my head, his "Give me some ideas" line was one that stuck with me.

Yep...that line sent chills down my spine..

"You're beginning to remind me a lot of him."

LK is great.

[ABED]

I do think people have grown more cynical. I constantly read where people have written about how they like the villains because they're flawed "they're like us". But on the spectrum of people you're closest to, who are you closer to in terms of morality? The clean-cut superman, or a murderer like Heisenberg or Dexter Morgan?

I would definitely consider Goku a badass. He can give and take an ass kicking and keep going. Vegeta's too whiney. I have no problem with goody two shoes, my only issue is when they aren't well done, and it comes off as flat. It sucks when the villain gets the colors and the hero is two dimensional. That's why Die Hard is so damn good. You have a great villain, but you also have an equally colorful hero. John McClane isn't your typical hero but he's undoubtedly a hero. He does the right thing but in funny and awesome ways.

Like I wrote, people have forgotten how to write compelling heroes. Joker is interesting but Batman can be equally as compelling if he doesn't have a thumb up his ass. Sherlock Holmes is a great character regardless of whatever villain he's facing.

[Storm]

Well, I'll personally agree that I was sick of people rooting for Walter White in the final season of Breaking Bad, either coming up with bullshit rationale to justify his actions or simply saying "it's fiction, who cares if I root for the bad guy." But the internet doesn't always attracted people who come off as well-adjusted.

I agree that great heroes are something of a lost art, but I think with the New Sincerity movement we're seeing more of that come back, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe gaining popularity. It's just generally easier (or at least easier to please audiences with) to make an entertaining villain because of the fact that they usually drive the plot.

[ABED]

I rooted for Walter, but that's because he was going up against Nazis. However, I was firmly in Hank's corner for most of the series. What gets to me is when people root for Walt and hate on Skylar. Why? What did she do to deserve some of the crap she got from fans? She was a victim. Okay, she stepped over the line after finding out Walt's secret, but there's nothing she did that was worse than Walter. What baffles me about this is that the writers were very clear that this isn't admirable, cool, or excusable behavior. They weren't writing even an anti-hero. I can talk about that show all day, but I won't. I think it's illustrative of a trend among viewers.

I'm ambivalent about the reaction towards Man of Steel. People called Superman "boring" because he was too much of a goody good. Then he kills someone, and some people lose their minds. "How can he kill someone?! He's supposed to be better than that!" I wonder if some people said both.

To bring this back around to DB, I find it odd when some lament Vegeta being anything other than "badass". They don't like him whiney. He's a bad guy!

[Storm]

I'll conclude the Breaking Bad discussion (and feel free to PM me if you want to continue it) and say in regards to Skyler: I think it's just good ol' misogyny.

Speaking as someone who has Vegeta as their favorite Dragon Ball character, I too am baffled at how much people protect and romanticize the character. Like people flip out when he dances in Battle Of Gods, or when he refuses to fight Broly in movie 8. It's kind of a fan version of Flanderization; if a character has a significant trait (being badass), that's all they can be. I like Vegeta because of his faults and weaknesses, not in spite of them.

[ABED]

I think it's fine to like something in spite of shortcomings but he's a villain, and anti-hero at best, so having moments where he's not "badass" are appropriate. He should have the "piece of shit" factor that a good villain possesses.

What's Flanderization?

[hleV]

I cheered for Majin Vegeta.

[TheGmGoken]

I would definitely consider Goku a badass. He can give and take an ass kicking and keep going.

The average hero to be honest. Not badass.

Like I wrote, people have forgotten how to write compelling heroes. Joker is interesting but Batman can be equally as compelling if he doesn't have a thumb up his ass. Sherlock Holmes is a great character regardless of whatever villain he's facing.

Most people always prefer Joker anyways. No matter which form Comic, Movie, Video Games, and TV show. People think Batman is a great written hero. But they just prefer Joker. NOTHING is wrong with that.

I do think people have grown more cynical. I constantly read where people have written about how they like the villains because they're flawed "they're like us". But on the spectrum of people you're closest to, who are you closer to in terms of morality? The clean-cut superman, or a murderer like Heisenberg or Dexter Morgan?

Where have you read this at? Because if it's some message forums or boards then 60% of them are liers trying to fit in. Saying that act like the villains when many of them are the nicest people ever. They just might like the villains but have no great explanation like they see that others do. I'm closer to Superman than a murderer. But I vastly prefer most villians than heroes. Even the old school heroes.

I'm ambivalent about the reaction towards Man of Steel. People called Superman "boring" because he was too much of a goody good. Then he kills someone, and some people lose their minds. "How can he kill someone?! He's supposed to be better than that!" I wonder if some people said both.

Movie was kinda boring to be honest unless you mean the actual hero. Which is slightly less boring.. SuperMan character is, will always be, and was always boring. Just boring. Though most of his fights and villains are equally boring as well. Superman's story as a whole is boring

To bring this back around to DB, I find it odd when some lament Vegeta being anything other than "badass". They don't like him whiny. He's a bad guy!

People like some character with some balls to be honest. I don't mean brave. I mean have some attitude. Most of Vegeta's whiny scenes makes sense so I don't really care(Except for Movie 12). Most people don't complain that Vegeta is whiny. They complain that he's just a stepping stone to show that the villain is strong.

What's Flanderization?

To speak in the upbeat, euphemistically nonsensical style of a character

I think it's fine to like something in spite of shortcomings but he's a villain, and anti-hero at best, so having moments where he's not "badass" are appropriate. He should have the "piece of shit" factor that a good villain possesses.

That doesn't mean we can't like Vegeta just cause he's a "villain". .....

Vegeta stop being a villain around Cyborg arc to be honest. He was more of a jackass than anything. Also most people like Vegeta because of the Saiyan Arc where EVERYONE alive that could fight tried to kill him and they could't do it and the fact that Vegeta tried everything and none of them died. Freeza Arc. Fans began admire Vegeta's planning skills and battle style. Cell Arc is just full of Vegeta moments. Boo Arc. Majin Vegeta and Vegeta's respect.

[DBZAOTA482]

What's Flanderization?

It's when a character trait (often minor) becomes increasingly empathized to the point where it basically becomes what defines the character.

Notable examples: Ned Flanders (trope namer) from The Simpsons, Peggy Hill from King of the Hill, Most of the main characters from Spongebob SquarePants (hell the show itself is flanderized), etc.

[Storm]

The average hero to be honest. Not badass.

Heroes are usually badass... otherwise, they wouldn't be heroes.

[TheGmGoken]

The average hero to be honest. Not badass.

Heroes are usually badass... otherwise, they wouldn't be heroes.

Heroes IMO aren't usually badass unless you don't mean comic book ones. Which I'll agree that 70% of heroes(Movie heroes, TV series, and even Video game heroes. BTW doesn't have to be a Super Hero) are badass. But we need to agree that Ethan Mars is the WORST hero ever.

Don't watch his son
Let his son disobey him
NEVER taught his kids to look BOTH ways before crossing the Street(Which leds to a death).
Got K.O at playground.
Have to save his son(This is where he becomes a hero) with 2 other people helping.
And when his son has only 18 hours LEFT to live.

Ethan Mars is having sex with a girl he met 2 days ago .

Ethan Mars = Definition of what a true hero(Wish I thought of this when we had Goku parenting threads)

[Storm]

I've never watched Heavy Rain, so I have no opinion on Ethan Mars.

The term "badass" is colloquial, anyway. I tend to think of it as characters who are cool, and you can be cool for a variety of reasons. Son Goku is badass because he continues to fight his battles to the bone and manages to come up with solutions on the spot to get out of a hairy situation. Sherlock Holmes is badass because he uses his knowledge and clever thinking to solve problems while managing to deceive others around him. Avatar Aang is badass because he overcomes his fear and hatred of fighting and violence in order to oppose those that use said fighting and violence as a tool to oppress others. And so on.

[TheGmGoken]

I've never watched Heavy Rain, so I have no opinion on Ethan Mars.

It's a game - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Rain (You should buy, rent, or borrow. Great game)
Here's what I mean BTW. Not showing graphic parts though.

Spoiler:

His Son is drowning in this

When his son got 18 hours to live. He's is having sex with someone met 2 days ago

Son Goku is badass because he continues to fight his battles to the bone and manages to come up with solutions on the spot to get out of a hairy situation. Sherlock Holmes is badass because he uses his knowledge and clever thinking to solve problems while managing to deceive others around him. Avatar Aang is badass because he overcomes his fear and hatred of fighting and violence in order to oppose those that use said fighting and violence as a tool to oppress others. And so on.

I think badass is a term which people have different views on what it's on. I find Goku smart(Fighting wise) not badass. Not a bad thing.

[Storm]

It's a game

That was the joke on my part.

[RandomGuy96]

Goku is definitely a badass. I don't know how he can't be considered one under any reasonable standard.

[TheGmGoken]

It's a game

That was the joke on my part.

Oh then...........

Goku is definitely a badass. I don't know how he can't be considered one under any reasonable standard.

Well in my defense I think Goten is badass. Maybe the fanboy talking in me. But I honestly think Goku stop being badass after Freeza arc

[ABED]

The average hero to be honest. Not badass.

Not the average hero. The average hero is someone like Kuririn. They can take a beating but they couldn't have all of their limbs incapacitated but still defeat their arch nemesis. Goku goes the extra mile, that's badass. But I hope we can agree that the term is vague and there's no universally accepted definition of a badass.

I've been in the Dragon ball fandom for a long time and I can assure you all that there are plenty of people that don't like that Vegeta can come off as whiney. That's not everyone, but enough that it does give me pause.

Where have you read this at?

I've read interviews, articles, reviews, critiques, listened to interviews from critics, writers, etc. I see it all over the place and all the time. It's disconcerting.