How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
I know it's filler but I'd still like to see it explained. I doubt the increased gravity would be a threat to the Ginyu Force if the then-dead Z Fighters could withstand it. These are people that gave Vegeta trouble and yet had their arses handed to them by Yamcha. There's probably something I'm missing.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
It's just really bad filler, It cannot be explained, at all, in story or out. It showed them doing what Vegeta couldn't, without Kaioken even. . Hell Tenshinshan did the Multiform to fight Jeice and Burter, an ability that divides your power in two. For him to fight them evenly divided by two, he would have to be 2 times stronger than Goku at that point for it to work
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Angelus
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Yeah, bad filler. If you think that's bad, there's a filler when Yamcha beat Olibu and a Gorilla-esque fighter in a sparring match. Olibu is weaker than weighed-clothes Pikkon. Pikkon, who can take on SPC. And you have Goku not being SSJ2 yet. Gaah. Confusing.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Paikuhan used a special technique to beat Cell. Paikuhan was also probably suppressed against Olibu, since he could fight evenly with base Goku in the next fight.Angelus wrote:Yeah, bad filler. If you think that's bad, there's a filler when Yamcha beat Olibu and a Gorilla-esque fighter in a sparring match. Olibu is weaker than weighed-clothes Paikuhan. Paikuhan, who can take on SPC. And you have Goku not being SSJ2 yet. Gaah. Confusing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Invisible Kaioken? Only thing that possibly works to make sense of it.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
It actually makes sense when you remember one thing: power ups in the series never really make sense. Remember Piccolo in this same arc? He did even less training than the humans, yet his power was enough to completely awe Nail ( = stronger than all the Ginyus bar the Cap'n) and strong enough that, even after sensing Krillin's and Gohan's massive powers, he thought that he had to go help them against Freeza. And this is after he talked about how much stronger he had gotten on the planet, to the point he thought he could beat first form Freeza alone (he was wrong, of course, but given all of the events he saw he'd have to be many times stronger to even consider the possibility). This does not sound like a person who is still weaker than Saiyan Saga Vegeta, otherwise he'd probably say SOMETHING, like "oh my god I'm actually weak as shit, this was a horrible mistake, even Krillin is over twenty times stronger than me".
Pikkon took on Cell with Burning Shot, which I think is a kaio-ken like technique. At his full power, he was also over twice as strong as SS Goku, given the way he tanked the Super Kaioken and Instant Kamehameha, so combine that with a special attack and there's no real contradiction with him beating Super Perfect Cell. As for his fight with Olibu: given his next fight against Goku, Pikkon at that level was still suppressed massively (he goes from being weaker than base Goku to effortlessly stomping SS Goku). Yamcha in that filler is only portrayed as being about as strong as CG base Goku... which, granted, is still wanktastic, but not THAT severe. Maybe in the anime, the humans did actually take those ROSAT trips?Yeah, bad filler. If you think that's bad, there's a filler when Yamcha beat Olibu and a Gorilla-esque fighter in a sparring match. Olibu is weaker than weighed-clothes Paikuhan. Paikuhan, who can take on SPC. And you have Goku not being SSJ2 yet. Gaah. Confusing.
Last edited by RandomGuy96 on Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
I actually like this filler, because at least it gave their training a pay off. Yamcha and Tenshinhan train with Kami, and nothing really comes out of it. Same with their King Kai training.
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
They trained so much, their power eventually exceeded that of the Ginyu force members.Weejus wrote:I know it's filler but I'd still like to see it explained. I doubt the increased gravity would be a threat to the Ginyu Force if the then-dead Z Fighters could withstand it. These are people that gave Vegeta trouble and yet had their arses handed to them by Yamcha. There's probably something I'm missing.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
But wouldn't that make Yamcha stronger than Vegeta at that point? Vegeta could barely hold his own against Reacoom.dbgtFO wrote:They trained so much, their power eventually exceeded that of the Ginyu force members.Weejus wrote:I know it's filler but I'd still like to see it explained. I doubt the increased gravity would be a threat to the Ginyu Force if the then-dead Z Fighters could withstand it. These are people that gave Vegeta trouble and yet had their arses handed to them by Yamcha. There's probably something I'm missing.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Didn't that filler take place during the Goku vs Freeza fight? If that was the case, then no, Vegeta would still be nearly 50 times stronger than Yamcha.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Wasn't it stated or implied somewhere in the manga that Piccolo was 10x stronger than Nail when he arrived on Namek? It would make sense seeing as he was still considering fighting Frieza alone after sensing him power up in 1st form. If Piccolo got that strong then the others could have got pretty strong too.
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Nothing about him being ten times stronger, but it's definitely implied that he's over 42,000 at least. Depending on you interpret a certain comment, he might even be 300,000 or so.90sDBZ wrote:Wasn't it stated or implied somewhere in the manga that Piccolo was 10x stronger than Nail when he arrived on Namek? It would make sense seeing as he was still considering fighting Freeza alone after sensing him power up in 1st form. If Piccolo got that strong then the others could have got pretty strong too.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Only explanation that could make sense: when they were given their bodies back, Enma deliberately made them weaker so they'd be more appropriate opponents.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Why did they even get their bodies back in the first place?
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Kamiccolo9
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
I believe it's implied that Kaio arranged it in order to provide training for Yamcha and co.Weejus wrote:Why did they even get their bodies back in the first place?
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Considering what Piccolo said about himself, and what Gero said about the humans in the android arc, no, it's not the only reason.Saiga wrote:Only explanation that could make sense: when they were given their bodies back, Enma deliberately made them weaker so they'd be more appropriate opponents.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
"That could make sense". Even if the manga does it (arguable) it still wouldn't make sense.RandomGuy96 wrote:Considering what Piccolo said about himself, and what Gero said about the humans in the android arc, no, it's not the only reason.Saiga wrote:Only explanation that could make sense: when they were given their bodies back, Enma deliberately made them weaker so they'd be more appropriate opponents.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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RandomGuy96
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Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
That's what I meant. It's not the only explanation that could make sense.
Does it, though? The manga never established that this COULDN'T happen, considering the humans did at least ask for more intensive training than Goku, got much more of a boost than him by doing the same training before, were stronger than him when they got there, and didn't have to waste time learning techniques. Then there's Piccolo's gains in general...
Does it, though? The manga never established that this COULDN'T happen, considering the humans did at least ask for more intensive training than Goku, got much more of a boost than him by doing the same training before, were stronger than him when they got there, and didn't have to waste time learning techniques. Then there's Piccolo's gains in general...
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it can't make sense to anyone else.Saiga wrote:"That could make sense". Even if the manga does it (arguable) it still wouldn't make sense.RandomGuy96 wrote:Considering what Piccolo said about himself, and what Gero said about the humans in the android arc, no, it's not the only reason.Saiga wrote:Only explanation that could make sense: when they were given their bodies back, Enma deliberately made them weaker so they'd be more appropriate opponents.
Re: How did Yamcha et al beat the Ginyu Force?
Did I say it can't make sense to anyone else?Draken wrote:
Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it can't make sense to anyone else.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!