Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[RandomGuy96]

Shouldn't Freeza also have dozens of generic weaker-than-Raditz troops back at his ship?

[TonyTheTiger]

You know, it's at this point in the series that I'm reminded how Krillin is deliberately held back since he could, in theory, end this entire ordeal single handedly. He has the Taiyoken. He has the Kienzan. And none of the bad guys can sense energy. Krillin could roflstomp before Goku even gets there.

[Shnuki]

Shouldn't Freeza also have dozens of generic weaker-than-Raditz troops back at his ship?

No, all of Freeza's soldiers were with him during their raids on the villages (in the manga). And hey, speaking about the anime, how convenient it was for our heroes that none of Freeza's goons that stayed on his ship had a Scouter!

[rereboy]

You know, it's at this point in the series that I'm reminded how Krillin is deliberately held back since he could, in theory, end this entire ordeal single handedly. He has the Taiyoken. He has the Kienzan. And none of the bad guys can sense energy. Krillin could roflstomp before Goku even gets there.

Oozaru Vegeta, who didn't see Krillin's Kienzan or was able to sense energy and still dodged the attack, says hi.

In short, it wouldn't have worked. They would be momentarily blind, but they still have other senses to rely on (even without Ki sensing) and are much faster than Krillin or any of his attacks.

In fact, Freeza also dodged a Kienzan from Krillin without even seeing it since it was launched from his back. That didn't stop him from dodging it.

[Gonstead]

The fact that the Kienzan makes the noise it does I find is enough to warn you something is coming.

[Saiga]

So out of two instances of Kuririn launching a Kienzan at someone who can't see him and can't sense ki, it is dodged both times. I think it's fair to say it's just not as simple as Taiyoken + Kienzan = win everything forever.

[mAcChaos]

Well, imagine if your eyes were closed and a boulder was rolling towards you.

You would hear it and feel the rumbling for sure.

[TonyTheTiger]

Actually, the fact that it gets dodged so much is actually good evidence of how story breaking it is. For the plot to work it can't be allowed to hit anybody, unlike most ki blasts which are routinely tanked. Krillin is made less than effective specifically because otherwise he'd be too effective. There's even a trope for it: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dLethality.

[RandomGuy96]

The fact that it gets dodged so much is actually good evidence of how story breaking it is. For the plot to continue it can't be allowed to hit anybody, unlike most ki blasts which are routinely tanked. Krillin is made less than effective specifically because otherwise he'd be too effective. There's even a trope for it: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dLethality.

Or maybe the fact that it's repeatedly and effortlessly dodged by essentially blind opponents is supposed to be a testament to how non-story breaking and ineffective it is?

Heck, it's not even story breaking if it hits. The attack would likely do nothing to an opponent who's too much stronger than Krillin (otherwise it's just silly). Not that it matters anyway, considering how easy it is to dodge. Even when an opponent stands perfectly still specifically to tank it, he can't hit anything. In this case, it's depicted as ridiculously slow and impractical, with Vegeta having enough time to tell Nappa to dodge it, and Nappa having enough time to hear and react to this even as the attack is right about to hit him.

[TonyTheTiger]

Considering Freeza nearly killed himself with a Kienzan equivalent, I'd say that it's incredibly effective, which is why Krillin's Kienzan was scripted to fail to connect all the time. It is, as contradictory as it sounds, too useful to work. It's arguably the same reason for why the Spirit Bomb has a pretty shitty track record. Although the Spirit Bomb is at least allowed to make contact with what it's thrown at even if it usually fails to kill. The Kienzan is so broken that it can't even be allowed that much.

[Mystic Buu]

Oh common,only reason is that story doesn't accept it.It would be really stupid that all villians die quick with taiyoken and kienzan.Altough that other senses and sound of kienzan are also reason.

[Mystic Buu]

The fact that it gets dodged so much is actually good evidence of how story breaking it is. For the plot to continue it can't be allowed to hit anybody, unlike most ki blasts which are routinely tanked. Krillin is made less than effective specifically because otherwise he'd be too effective. There's even a trope for it: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dLethality.

Or maybe the fact that it's repeatedly and effortlessly dodged by essentially blind opponents is supposed to be a testament to how non-story breaking and ineffective it is?Heck, it's not even story breaking if it hits. The attack would likely do nothing to an opponent who's too much stronger than Krillin (otherwise it's just silly). Not that it matters anyway, considering how easy it is to dodge. Even when an opponent stands perfectly still specifically to tank it, he can't hit anything. In this case, it's depicted as ridiculously slow and impractical, with Vegeta having enough time to tell Nappa to dodge it, and Nappa having enough time to hear and react to this even as the attack is right about to hit him.

You are right,in the anime when Cell became perfect,Krillin launched Kienzan and nothing happened.

[rereboy]

Considering Freeza nearly killed himself with a Kienzan equivalent, I'd say that it's incredibly effective.

Those Kienzan weren't created by Krillin who is massively inferior to Freeza. They were created by Freeza himself. If they couldn't even cut someone with the same power as the one that created them when they actually hit, they would be worse than useless.

[TonyTheTiger]

Oh common,only reason is that story doesn't accept it.

I'm talking more from an out of universe perspective. What tends to happen in fiction when writers concoct powers that in theory could end the story in a matter of minutes they make sure those powers never actually accomplish it. Which is amusing because it means the theoretically most effective techniques end up being rendered impotent by virtue of storytelling necessity.

You are right,in the anime when Cell became perfect,Krillin launched Kienzan and nothing happened.

Arbitrary Toei nerfs suck.

If they couldn't even cut someone with the same power as the one that created them when they actually hit, they would be worse than useless.

As far as I know, disregarding the filler nerf above, there's nothing to suggest a Kienzan can't cut anything it hits. In fact, I'd argue subsequent villains' regeneration powers were written in at least partially to address the effectiveness of slicing.

[Flame Dragon]

Considering Freeza nearly killed himself with a Kienzan equivalent, I'd say that it's incredibly effective.

Those Kienzan weren't created by Krillin who is massively inferior to Freeza. They were created by Freeza himself. If they couldn't even cut someone with the same power as the one that created them when they actually hit, they would be worse than useless.

This. Throught this was obvious.
It's not like the Kienzan has a fixed power, its strenght depends on the user ki, you know, like EVERY OTHER TECHNIQUE in the manga/anime.

[TonyTheTiger]

Krillin sliced off Freeza's tail and he wasn't even close to Freeza's power at the time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Krillin sliced off Freeza's tail and he wasn't even close to Freeza's power at the time.

Freeza was caught off-guard though.

[rereboy]

Krillin sliced off Freeza's tail and he wasn't even close to Freeza's power at the time.

We don't know if a Kienzan can be negated by a much more powerful opponent, but Freeza's Kienzans cutting Freeza is expected either way because they are not cutting a being WAAAY more powerful than the one who created them. Understand? Freeza's Kienzans cutting Frezza is pretty much meaningless to that discussion.

[TonyTheTiger]

We at least know that Krillin's Kienzan can't be negated by second form Freeza, which is really all that we need to know. No other bad guy on Namek was close to second form Freeza so it's clear enough that Krillin's power level is either sufficient or irrelevant. Either way, we know he can kill anyone he'd need to here if he were to hit them center mass. It just so happens he never does because the plot requires more drama than "Krillin cuts everyone in half."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Keep in mind that Mecha Freeza could be cut by a powerful sword, while #18 couldn't.