How end of Z base Goku can be equal to buu saga ssj3 Goku

[Kaboom]

I still think taking it to mean "everyone's gotten as strong as they possibly ever will" is unnecessarily extreme. Toriyama doesn't explicitly say that. His quote can be simply taken to mean "the strongest they were ever shown during the manga." As opposed to weaker before the Boo arc, or of unknown strength after the manga's epilogue.

[Draken]

Well stronger than they were ever shown in the manga is still BoG > EOZ

[MDSTSSJ]

Umm, I don't know what you're getting at. He does become stronger than he was in the Buu Saga; just not by much, and his gains more or less max out at BOG, approximately the half-way point of the training. From there, it's just maintenance.

My point is, Toriyama says one thing and in the manga or BoG we see different things.

You pointed out : " However, I don't think he can get stronger, since Toriyama implied age was taking its toll on Goku ".

Yes Toriyama said that but we never heard Goku or Vegeta telling that they are getting old or that they can not be stronger ( after BoG ) and so they will train just for maintenance. We have for a fact than they can become stronger because Goku said that. They are at their prime because Vegeta pointed out in BoG. You think after 5 years suddenly they became old? Oh no! And we have Goku younger than Vegeta.

Do we see EOZ Goku demonstrate strength superior to BOG Goku?

Clearly not but Goku said he would become stronger to fight the reincarnation of Oob and that is enough to confirm to me that Goku could have gained enough power in those 10 years to defeat Oob without much trouble. BoG came later and is in the middle of the 10 years gap.

End of Boo Saga we have Kakarotto pointed out he will return stronger to fight Oob. We have BoG Goku stronger and Oob has not appeared yet. 5 more years to train and Oob appear. It's time for Goku to show his powers after training hard for 10 years. Kakarotto ( without using his full power ) test Oob and is what he expected. Goku decides to train him and when flying with him, Goku says they will become more stronger. Those are facts for me!!

Do wee see BoG Kakarotto ( without God powers obviously ) demonstrate strength superior to EoZ Goku? No!

[Draken]

He said he would try to get strong enough to fight Buu in a fair 1v1 match. Things don't always work out the exact way you want them to do they?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I still think taking it to mean "everyone's gotten as strong as they possibly ever will" is unnecessarily extreme. Toriyama doesn't explicitly say that. His quote can be simply taken to mean "the strongest they were ever shown during the manga." As opposed to weaker before the Boo arc, or of unknown strength after the manga's epilogue.

That's what RandomGuy69 has been saying. If Goku is at the maximum in Boo arc/BoG, then by the 28th TB arc, he must be either weaker or as strong as he was.

Personally, I believe everyone but Gohan (minus his Ultimate state), Goten, and Trunks have reached their limit by the end of the series, but reaching the limit doesn't mean that they can't get stronger at all. It's just that Goku, for example, would jump from 6 to 10 in a year before reaching his limit, but now he will go from 6 to 7 in 5 years.

[goku the krump dancer]

Battle of Gods was made after the manga concluded but the manga concludes after Battle of Gods.

[Son_Gohan]

I still think taking it to mean "everyone's gotten as strong as they possibly ever will" is unnecessarily extreme. Toriyama doesn't explicitly say that. His quote can be simply taken to mean "the strongest they were ever shown during the manga." As opposed to weaker before the Boo arc, or of unknown strength after the manga's epilogue.

There is a statement of his that more strongly indicates it was what he had in mind:

The key words this time, “God of Destruction Beerus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher.

Saying everyone has gotten as strong as they possibly ever will obviously couldn't hold true when they are shown to become stronger in BoG. If the movie tells us anything about acquiring strength at that point, is that it has to be due to external factors; not within their own capacities to attain.

[hleV]

Who are the "main characters"?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Who are the "main characters"?

The Z-Senshi?

[goku the krump dancer]

All this is proving is that majority if not all the promotional material quotes are bullshit.

Beerus isnt the strongest person in Z, Whis is. Though at the very least Beerus is more powerful than SSJ Vegetto.

Everyone isnt at "Maximum Strength" because Goten and Trunks can train if they want to, Vegeta gets a rage boost and Goku keeps some of the God power up. Though personally I don't think there is an absolute maximum for the Z fighters anyway.

Not all of the Z cast is "past their prime" after the Boo arc. Vegeta states that he and Goku are still in their prime five or six years after Battle of Gods takes place. In the character Panel for the "10 Years Later" chapter it has Piccolo showing no signs of old age either so he's still in his prime as well.

[RandomGuy96]

That's what RandomGuy69 has been saying. If Goku is at the maximum in Boo arc/BoG, then by the 28th TB arc, he must be either weaker or as strong as he was.

Personally, I believe everyone but Gohan (minus his Ultimate state), Goten, and Trunks have reached their limit by the end of the series, but reaching the limit doesn't mean that they can't get stronger at all. It's just that Goku, for example, would jump from 6 to 10 in a year before reaching his limit, but now he will go from 6 to 7 in 5 years.

It's 96, not 69. I'm not that immature. :p

Anyway, yeah, that's what I've been saying. Looking at the line in context, it seems he's referring to a portion of the manga's story line, rather than anything after it. So, at the very least, EoZ Goku = BoG Goku. However, I choose to interpret his quote, when taken with other quotes and the implications of the "everyone is too old" statement, that BOG Goku is the maximum of Goku's base strength- he'll never get any stronger before he dies. He might just get weaker.

Everyone isnt at "Maximum Strength" because Goten and Trunks can train if they want to, Vegeta gets a rage boost and Goku keeps some of the God power up. Though personally I don't think there is an absolute maximum for the Z fighters anyway.

Goten and Trunks would still be at maximum strength, the highest strength they'll ever have in their lives, because they probably never train ever.

Vegeta and Goku both get stronger IN the movie, but the context of the line was Toriyama wondering when to set the movie. He said he set it 5 years before the end rather than at the end, because everyone would be at maximum strength five years before. And those aren't exactly 'promotional quotes', those are comments on the original work from the writer of the manga himself.

[hleV]

This is how I interpret "the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher":
Even though AT is talking about the "main characters" and says that "they'd reached a point where there's nothing higher", he means that one of the main characters has reached a point which supposedly cannot be surpassed normally. AT here doesn't say that everyone has reached their respective maximums and couldn't go higher, but rather that the absolute maximum was, indeed, reached by the main characters (even though actually just one of them did that) and that those main characters wouldn't be able to go above that absolute maximum (which, again, just one person reached). He uses "main characters" in general, not really referring to all of them. And because he doesn't want to put Gohan above Goku because fanboys. Or can't remember which of the two was the stronger one.

This is how I interpret "everyone had got to maximum strength":
Everyone was at their own maximum in the sense that they never gotten stronger rather than weren't able to. Goten & Trunks sure as hell could've become stronger and Goku himself proves that by saying that had Goten trained, he could beat Mr. Boo (Boo arc Goten definitely couldn't). But then back in the Boo arc Goku says that he'll train to surely defeat Pure Boo in the future (had he emerged from Mr. Boo which wasn't actually possible), so I'm not sure whether really nobody improved during those 10 years or it's just AT being forgetful as he is.

[goku the krump dancer]

The last part of hleV's interpretation is pretty much where I stand on the situation. I mean yeah Battle of Gods and the comments made on it were produced after the manga ended but because it takes place before the manga's conclusion, which has statements that seem to imply that the Z fighters or at least Goku and Vegeta have improved since Boo's demise. They override any possibility that everyone hit their unbreakable wall of power.

[Piccolo jr]

EOZ Base Goku is atleast stronger than Good Buu. Goku said if Goten had trained, He would've surpassed Good Buu as SSJ so same goes for Goku. He could beat Good Buu in base.

[Draken]

This is how I interpret "the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher":
Even though AT is talking about the "main characters" and says that "they'd reached a point where there's nothing higher", he means that one of the main characters has reached a point which supposedly cannot be surpassed normally. AT here doesn't say that everyone has reached their respective maximums and couldn't go higher, but rather that the absolute maximum was, indeed, reached by the main characters (even though actually just one of them did that) and that those main characters wouldn't be able to go above that absolute maximum (which, again, just one person reached). He uses "main characters" in general, not really referring to all of them. And because he doesn't want to put Gohan above Goku because fanboys. Or can't remember which of the two was the stronger one.

This is how I interpret "everyone had got to maximum strength":
Everyone was at their own maximum in the sense that they never gotten stronger rather than weren't able to. Goten & Trunks sure as hell could've become stronger and Goku himself proves that by saying that had Goten trained, he could beat Mr. Boo (Boo arc Goten definitely couldn't). But then back in the Boo arc Goku says that he'll train to surely defeat Pure Boo in the future (had he emerged from Mr. Boo which wasn't actually possible), so I'm not sure whether really nobody improved during those 10 years or it's just AT being forgetful as he is.

AT talks in a plural sense, how could that be relating to a singular character?

EOZ Base Goku is atleast stronger than Good Buu. Goku said if Goten had trained, He would've surpassed Good Buu as SSJ so same goes for Goku. He could beat Good Buu in base.

So Goku is more than 50x stronger than Goten...? What?

[hleV]

AT talks in a plural sense, how could that be relating to a singular character?

Holy shit... You're right. The main characters had all reached that one certain level of power where there's nothing higher. They're all totally at the exact same level of power during the Boo arc.

[Saiga]

The way I interpreted "the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher" is the same message we're getting in the Boo arc: Goku and the others are running out of challenges. Goku went to the Otherworld to find more strong opponents, and we find there was nothing there for him. When Babidi shows up, we find his minions are nothing to the Z team, and even Boo doesn't stack up to Super Saiyan 3 Goku. We then get Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Gohan, who reach even higher, and it ends with Goku requesting for Boo to be reincarnated because he wants a challenge.

I think the idea is that concepts like the God of Destruction were necessary to come up with an appropriate challenge for everyone.

[Draken]

AT talks in a plural sense, how could that be relating to a singular character?

Holy shit... You're right. The main characters had all reached that one certain level of power where there's nothing higher. They're all totally at the exact same level of power during the Boo arc.

Yea man I know right!!! Tanks for da agreement br0ski

Toriyama states that the 5 years prior to the end of the show is when they're at their strongest level, he says nothing about Buu saga being their strongest or that they stayed the exact same strength. In fact, your interpretation is the one that could be looked upon as incredulous, though I'll avoid stooping to your level and actually take the time to read and reply.

"Main characters"
You say "characters" is referring to one person who reached their max, and thus Toriyama can say "The main characters, who had grown so strong they'd reached a point where there was nothing higher". Since when did plural "characters" and "they'd" refer to ONE main character who'd reached their peak strength? How does anyone reach that conclusion? He pretty much DOES state everyone had reached their respective maximum, it's at which point of their lives that seems to be most up to debate. Has everyone reached their peak for their life? For the manga's serialization? Why would he use "main characters" in general, which to most people refers to MAIN CHARACTERS, aka ALL of them, to refer to one singular person that you'd have to deeply micro-analyze to figure out he's talking about only one person, one person that no one knows?

I don't think many people disagree on their own maximum strength part referring to Goten and Trunks and the like. However, in the manga's serialization, everyone reaches a peak eventually, and it takes something huge like a new special type of training (RoSaT, transformations, dead, etc) to break that barrier. Goku and Vegeta could easily have reached yet another one of those peaks (very likely, seeing as how in 7 years of Other-World training he didn't even double his power bar SSJ3), and thus are at their maximum strength, maybe for the manga, maybe for life because nothing new comes by. (bar SSG)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think that the Saiyans hit their limit when they transformed into Super Saiyans. Goku trained hard for 3 years, and he was still close in power with a 6-months older Future Trunks. The Saiyans then enter inside RoSaT to with surpassing Super Saiyan as their main goal, not get even stronger through just training. Then the 4 Super Saiyans they make huge improvements in their base/SS forms after mastering Super Saiyan, which massively increased their training gains according to the SEG. And after that, Goku got less than twice stronger after training for 7 years in the AfterLife (I should remind that Goku did a less special training for 6 months with Kaio, and got a x20 increase), with him focusing in achieving Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3.

Vegeta even says that he reached his limit right before he awakened his SS, and Goku says the same about him & Gohan after they mastered SS. So, it seems that the first wall comes when the Saiyan gets strong enough to turn into SS & trained to their limits (with the near-death power-ups getting insignificant, and the tail stopping growing back), and the second (and final) wall comes after they've mastered SS & trained to their limits.

As for the rest of the Z-Senshi, Chaozu reached his limits during the 3 years time-skip since he couldn't keep up, Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan reached it after that time-skip since they couldn't go past the base Saiyans anymore, and Tenshinhan couldn't even surpass Kuririn after 12 years (probably because Kuririn had his dormant power out), and Piccolo reached it after RoSaT, since he never bothered to enter for a 2nd time, and never managed to surpass the mastered Super Saiyans.

[VegettoEX]

Holy shit... You're right. The main characters had all reached that one certain level of power where there's nothing higher. They're all totally at the exact same level of power during the Boo arc.

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