How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

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How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by SuperSaiyanOzaru » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:56 am

We've had threads on how people would've changed the Cell and Buu Arcs, so here's one for people's ideas about an alternate Saiyan or Freeza Arc. I'm lumping them together because they're sort of one big long story. Anyway, my ideas:

Saiyan Arc:
-Yamcha, Puar, Oolong, Tenshinhan, Chaotzu, and Launch are all at Kamesennin's place when Goku visits. The whole scene plays out more or less the same, though. Maybe the other Z-senshi help Goku and Piccolo fight Raditz, but Raditz plants some saibamen to keep them busy while he fights Goku and Piccolo. The end result is the same: Goku dies, Piccolo takes Gohan, everyone goes to Kamisama's for special training, etc.

-The power creep is kept to a minimum. I don't like how all of the human Z-senshi are suddenly stronger than Raditz after just a year. Instead, Raditz is considered to be really strong and is still much stronger than any of them even after their training. Only Piccolo and Gohan could take Raditz one-on-one, and it'd still be a deadly battle. Maybe something like Tenshinhan's Kikoho could injure Raditz, but none of them could just fight him by themselves. Nappa is stronger than Raditz by a decent margin, but he's not multiple times stronger or anything.

-I think there might be a female Saiyan that shows up with Vegeta and Nappa, who's about equal with Raditz (and hence, Piccolo). I don't know how the whole Saiyan battle would play out, but she'd survive the battle and leave the planet with Vegeta. Yamcha, Chaotzu, Tenshinhan, and Piccolo would still end up dead. I think maybe Piccolo and the female Saiyan would go one-on-one while everyone zerg rushes Nappa. Piccolo uses the Makkankusanpou to tear a hole through her shoulder and she falls under some rubble and is out like a light, then Piccolo starts helping the others fight Nappa but Chaotzu, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan are all dead and he's exhausted from his own fight. The rest probably plays out like it did originally until Goku shows up. Later, while Goku's fighting Vegeta, the female Saiyan wakes up and maybe fights Kuririn or whatever. Regardless, the end result is the same: Vegeta and her both leave in defeat and limp off back to Freeza's planet.

-Maybe Chi Chi would also train to prepare for the Saiyans and fight with the other Z-Senshi, and survives the battle. Launch, meanwhile, is back at Kame House with the others, watching the battle on TV or with Uranai Baba's crystal ball.

Freeza Arc:
This is more complicated. Okay, first, I'd have Goku be given a senzu bean so that he heals right away after his fight with Vegeta. Then he goes with Gohan, Kuririn, and Bulma to Planet Namek. Maybe Launch and Chi Chi also go. I like the idea of Launch sticking around during DBZ, rather than just disappearing. She would totally have gone to Planet Namek to wish back Tenshinhan! Among these changes, I would have:

-Ditched Kui and probably Dodoria. Instead, it's just Zarbon who's by Freeza's side. I'd also change the power scaling, so that "pretty" Zarbon is a little weaker than Raditz, but his monstrous form is about equal with Nappa. Instead of Kui, it's Commander Ginyu who's Vegeta's rival and equal. They're about equal in power, and each of the other Tokusentai (save Guldo) are about equal with Nappa and monster-Zarbon. Then a little below them are Raditz and the female Saiyan, then "pretty" Zarbon. Then there's a huge gap until you get to the rest of Freeza's army. So Raditz and Nappa are notoriously strong in the grand scheme of things. I don't like how Raditz is only supposed to be as strong as a rank-and-file soldier. Here, he's an elite. The rank-and-file of Freeza's army are weak even by Dragon Ball standards, as is Guldo, and probably aren't even much stronger than Red Ribbon soldiers. There's no way that Appule is stronger than Tao Pai Pai. Maybe there are stronger soldiers who, instead of being rank-and-file are arranged into teams that attack planets in those little ball ships, but even those are probably equal to Tambourine, Drum, etc.

-Obviously with Goku being on Planet Namek from the very start, no Kui or Dodoria, Vegeta already being as strong as Ginyu, the female Saiyan (dont have a name for her right now) going with Vegeta to Planet Namek etc. the story would play out differently. I don't feel like writing a complete fanfiction right here and now, but the basic gist is that Goku and Gohan get their potentials unlocked by Saichouro. Somewhere along the way, Piccolo gets wishes to Planet Namek and gets his potential unlocked, but never fuses with Nail. Vegeta and the female Saiyan get their potentials unlocked when it becomes clear that they're going to be needed to fight Freeza. There are no zenkai power-ups. Kuririn gets his potential unlocked, but is still short of Raditz. Tenshinhan and Yamcha are also about equal with him by the end of the arc, too, with Chaotzu being significantly behind but a bit stronger than he was when he fought the Saiyans.

-I would either just get rid of the whole Super Saiyan concept to begin with, or drastically change how it works. I think I might make it like the Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods, where the others sort of contribute their power to him and he transforms. Or maybe Goku can only unlock its power when he's super pissed off and has a warrior's fury and bloodlust, and the minute his anger goes away he reverts back to normal. Plus, there can only be one Super Saiyan. The point is, there should be limitations on it so that things like the Kaio-Ken are still useful in certain situations even after the Freeza Arc. Also, because the power of the Super Saiyan can only be unlocked when a Saiyan is almost insane with rage and bloodlust for a hated enemy, Goku can't use it against friends or during friendly spars. Only during the final epic battles with big bad guys can he turn into a Super Saiyan.

-Get rid of all of Freeza's different forms, and just give him maybe two forms. His first one looks like a cross between his first and his forth, and then his second looks like a cross between his second and his third, and is bigger than King Cold. In his first form, there's a decent-but-not-insurmountable gap between him and Ginyu/Vegeta, but his second form is way WAY stronger. After all of their Saichouro power-ups, Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo are each a little stronger than Freeza's first form, but in his second form, Freeza clowns them all. I won't go into how the entire fight plays out, but maybe at one point Vegeta grows his tail back and becomes an Ozaru, and in that form he can exceed 2nd form Freeza in sheer power, but Freeza moves too fast and cuts off his tail, then kills him. Goku, even at maximum Kaio-Ken, can't keep up, and then Freeza kills Kuririn. Goku explodes with fury, unlocks the Super Saiyan power, and he and Freeza square off while everyone else escapes. Maybe Freeza grows really big like Piccolo did at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, and that's his ultimate final form, the form he was in when he blew up Planet Vegeta. I like the idea of a kaiju Freeza, but I'm probably the only one, :lol: . But whatever the case, Goku finishes off Freeza for good and barely escapes Planet Namek with seconds to spare.


That's just a sort of basic gist of what I would do the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs. The Cell and Buu Arcs would play out differently based on this as well, but I won't go into those, save only to point out that the jinzoningen obviously wouldn't be stronger than Freeza (and in fact I'd probably have them be on par with Nappa and the Tokusentai, or Vegeta when he came to Earth), there wouldn't be so many Super Saiyans, and the human Z-senshi would still be semi-relevant.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by thatdbzguy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:11 am

I wouldn't have done them at all. I would've ended Dragon Ball after the 23rd tenkaichi so as to spare it from such a drastic decrease in quality.
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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by Freeza Soldier #156 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:52 am

thatdbzguy wrote:I wouldn't have done them at all. I would've ended Dragon Ball after the 23rd tenkaichi so as to spare it from such a drastic decrease in quality.
While pretty much all of us here would still like the series, I have a feeling that a lot of people, myself included, wouldn't hold it in such high regard if that 2/3 of it didn't exist. Without a doubt, it definitely wouldn't be the global juggernaut that it is. Sure it has flaws, but so does everything else. I just don't see a quality decrease as drastic as you continue making it out to be. Maybe in the anime version with its poor pacing due to copious amounts of filler, but not in the manga. I enjoy the series, thoroughly, from beginning to end.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by B » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:32 am

I guess I would introduce the Ginyu Squad much earlier and completely do away with Kwi, Dodoria, and Zarbon. Give each member a lot more time to show off their stuff.

The Saiyan arc is great because it's definitely a transitional period for the series and how it operated. You didn't really know what was going to happen. The anime utterly destroys that sense of unpredictability by pacing the story at a crawl. I'm tempted to say it's more detrimental and annoying than the way the Freeza arc was handled. I'm hesitant to change anything about it.

(The onslaught of these threads are sort of depressing me. It's okay to like the show, guys. Nothing's perfect.)
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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by Zephyr » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:19 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:I wouldn't have done them at all. I would've ended Dragon Ball after the 23rd tenkaichi so as to spare it from such a drastic decrease in quality.
But the drastic decrease in quality didn't come until the Namek arc. The Saiyan arc still made great use of its cast, expanded the setting into the afterlife, and provided subtle justification for Goku being the only one able to do anything most of the time ever since the beginning of the series. What's wrong with the arc other than "someone on the internet told me reasons"?

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by thatdbzguy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:13 pm

Zephyr wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:I wouldn't have done them at all. I would've ended Dragon Ball after the 23rd tenkaichi so as to spare it from such a drastic decrease in quality.
But the drastic decrease in quality didn't come until the Namek arc. The Saiyan arc still made great use of its cast, expanded the setting into the afterlife, and provided subtle justification for Goku being the only one able to do anything most of the time ever since the beginning of the series. What's wrong with the arc other than "someone on the internet told me reasons"?
Fine, then DBZ after the Saiyan saga sucks. Whoop-dee-doo, having one arc that isn't complete and utter crap is such a huge accomplishment.

Satisfied now?
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Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by rereboy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:16 pm

thatdbzguy wrote: Fine, then DBZ after the Saiyan saga sucks. Whoop-dee-doo, having one arc that isn't complete and utter crap is such a huge accomplishment.

Satisfied now?
Namek saga sucks? Why?

Its basically the continuation of the Saiyan saga, we have awesome and clever moments with Vegeta on Namek, great tension, great fights, and in the manga there's hardly any problems with pacing.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:23 pm

To be completely honest, I really don't like that rewrite.

I think the Saiyan/Freeza sagas are completely fine the way they are.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:37 pm

I'd just make a few adjustments to the Saiyan Saga and Freeza Saga, like cutting down on the power creep (making the humans and saibamen weaker than Raditz, making Freeza a LOT weaker, just generally making the power jumps less bullshit) and changing the results of some fights. For example, Recoome would be killed by Krillin's Kienzan, and Nappa would be finished off by Gohan after a long and bloody team effort from Chiatozu, Tenshinhan, Krillin, and Piccolo. Maybe Vegeta should directly kill one or two of the heroes, it seems cheap and takes away his menace a bit if Nappa and the Saibamen get all the actual kills.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:02 pm

rereboy wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote: Fine, then DBZ after the Saiyan saga sucks. Whoop-dee-doo, having one arc that isn't complete and utter crap is such a huge accomplishment.
Satisfied now?
Namek saga sucks? Why?
Its basically the continuation of the Saiyan saga, we have awesome and clever moments with Vegeta on Namek, great tension, great fights, and in the manga there's hardly any problems with pacing.
It's thatdbzguy. Arguing with him is no use. You'll only get sarcastic, "ingenious" responses like the one you've quoted.
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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by rereboy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:06 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote: It's thatdbzguy. Arguing with him is no use. You'll only get sarcastic, "ingenious" responses like the one you've quoted.
I enjoy putting him on the spot and noticing his lack of logical arguments.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by Mystic Buu » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:09 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote:
rereboy wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote: Fine, then DBZ after the Saiyan saga sucks. Whoop-dee-doo, having one arc that isn't complete and utter crap is such a huge accomplishment.
Satisfied now?
Namek saga sucks? Why?
Its basically the continuation of the Saiyan saga, we have awesome and clever moments with Vegeta on Namek, great tension, great fights, and in the manga there's hardly any problems with pacing.
It's thatdbzguy. Arguing with him is no use. You'll only get sarcastic, "ingenious" responses like the one you've quoted.
You're right.And thatdbzguy,Yamcha,Chiaotzu,Tien and Piccolo died.Would story end that way?Vegeta also escaped in his ship.It would make some reason that Goku vs Freeza would be the last fight but it was nice to see Red Ribbon Army again.Buu saga had humour that missed me since Piccolo saga,where the show started to turn dark.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by thatdbzguy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:10 pm

rereboy wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote: Fine, then DBZ after the Saiyan saga sucks. Whoop-dee-doo, having one arc that isn't complete and utter crap is such a huge accomplishment.

Satisfied now?
Namek saga sucks? Why?
Because there's nothing good about it. Same with the rest of DBZ's sagas.
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Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by rereboy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:12 pm

Just in time to prove my point.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by thatdbzguy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:22 pm

rereboy wrote:Just in time to prove my point.
Sorry if I'm not blinded by fanboyism and can see how bad DBZ actually is.
Khalid Shahin wrote:
Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by Mystic Buu » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:23 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
rereboy wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote: Fine, then DBZ after the Saiyan saga sucks. Whoop-dee-doo, having one arc that isn't complete and utter crap is such a huge accomplishment.

Satisfied now?
Namek saga sucks? Why?
Because there's nothing good about it. Same with the rest of DBZ's sagas.
Why?Explain yourself and if you can,tell me the reason.I will tell my reasons.It was really badass how Vegeta wiped out Cui,Dodoria and,luckily,Zarbon.When Ginyu Force arrived,he teamed up with Gohan and Krillin to defeat them.I was surprised that he killed Guldo and it was the first time i thought he will be a good guy.Battles with Frieza were exciting,first form was handled by Vegeta,second form by Piccolo,third form by angry Gohan and final form by Goku.Battle between SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza was epic,but Super Saiyan was too much for tyrant.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by thatdbzguy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:27 pm

Mystic Buu wrote: Why?Explain yourself and if you can,tell me the reason.I will tell my reasons.It was really badass how Vegeta wiped out Cui,Dodoria and,luckily,Zarbon.When Ginyu Force arrived,he teamed up with Gohan and Krillin to defeat them.I was surprised that he killed Guldo and it was the first time i thought he will be a good guy.Battles with Freeza were exciting,first form was handled by Vegeta,second form by Piccolo,third form by angry Gohan and final form by Goku.Battle between SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza was epic,but Super Saiyan was too much for tyrant.
Vegeta killing henchmen was repetitive, none of the henchmen were memorable, Freeza's multiple forms were repetitive and pointless, the Dragon Ball hunt was repetitive, etc.
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Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:28 pm

thatdbzguy wrote:
rereboy wrote:Just in time to prove my point.
Sorry if I'm not blinded by fanboyism and can see how bad DBZ actually is.
...*rubs forehead*

Okay, I really shouldn't, I know I'm feeding you or poking the bear as it were, but...seriously? We get it. You've got some really odd self-loathing thing towards DBZ. Hey, I understand it to a point - I've often sat back and said 'You know, with all the plot holes and gaps in logic and various other issues, Dragon Ball really shouldn't be as good as it is'. And when I say Dragon Ball, I mean the entire franchise. And I still feel this way at times, it shouldn't be as good to me as it is. But you know what? It is. I love the series despite it's faults and sometimes because of it. If that's being 'blinded by fanboyism', then I'll take that any day over turning into some kind of overly-cynical self-loathing fan such as you're presenting yourself with every post you make.

I mean, do you not think we get it already? You hate DBZ. I feel comfortable enough speaking for most users here in saying that we got it the first hundred times. Do you really have nothing else to contribute to discussions anymore other than your hatred, cuz if not, do you really not have anything better to be doing with your time than stewing in your own hatred of it? Make a sandwhich, go read a book, talk about shows that you actually enjoy - I promise you'll enjoy your time spent doing that stuff far more than whatever you're getting out of plopping yourself down in the middle of the internet floor and screaming about how horrible DBZ is.

(Sorry if this comes off like mini-modding, staff, and if it does I'll gladly pull it back. But I cannot be the only one really getting tired of the schtick here.)
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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by thatdbzguy » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:33 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:
thatdbzguy wrote:
rereboy wrote:Just in time to prove my point.
Sorry if I'm not blinded by fanboyism and can see how bad DBZ actually is.
...*rubs forehead*

Okay, I really shouldn't, I know I'm feeding you or poking the bear as it were, but...seriously? We get it. You've got some really odd self-loathing thing towards DBZ. Hey, I understand it to a point - I've often sat back and said 'You know, with all the plot holes and gaps in logic and various other issues, Dragon Ball really shouldn't be as good as it is'. And when I say Dragon Ball, I mean the entire franchise. And I still feel this way at times, it shouldn't be as good to me as it is. But you know what? It is. I love the series despite it's faults and sometimes because of it. If that's being 'blinded by fanboyism', then I'll take that any day over turning into some kind of overly-cynical self-loathing fan such as you're presenting yourself with every post you make.

I mean, do you not think we get it already? You hate DBZ. I feel comfortable enough speaking for most users here in saying that we got it the first hundred times. Do you really have nothing else to contribute to discussions anymore other than your hatred, cuz if not, do you really not have anything better to be doing with your time than stewing in your own hatred of it? Make a sandwhich, go read a book, talk about shows that you actually enjoy - I promise you'll enjoy your time spent doing that stuff far more than whatever you're getting out of plopping yourself down in the middle of the internet floor and screaming about how horrible DBZ is.

(Sorry if this comes off like mini-modding, staff, and if it does I'll gladly pull it back. But I cannot be the only one really getting tired of the schtick here.)
Except I don't hate DBZ. I actually do enjoy it.

I'm just not under the impression that it's any good.
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Dragon Soul Funimation Lyrics wrote:Nothing ever dies; we will rise again!
Yeah, pretty much sums the show up right there.

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Re: How would you have done the Saiyan and/or Freeza Arcs?

Post by TheAldella » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:13 pm

People can enjoy a product that isn't good.
Be it Cardfight Vanguard, a Ben Stiller movie, or Dragon Ball Raging Blast. Without being a negative nancy in the way that thatdbzguy makes himself, (which is the Only problem that I can find in his argument) something can entertain you and still have Many flaws.

In my eyes, if one can acknowledge something's flaws and still enjoy it, it makes them stronger than a people who blinds themselves.
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