Does anybody actually think that DBZ got better post-Namek?

[Saiga]

I thought it was agreed upon that power levels are bullshit.

Doesn't make it right. A lot of people saying that are just quoting TFS and don't know much better.

Sure, thinking that battle powers have defined, unbending rules for comparisons between battle powers is bullshit, but that's more of a fan thing than anything else.

This thread seems to be showing just how bullshit they are.

How? Do you mean the illogical gains? If so, those can be bullshit, but I'm just talking about the concept of battle powers themselves.

[Attitudefan]

Well, I think what Dragonball was trying to show us viewers was how absurd relying on power levels are. I mean, doesn't Vegeta say something like that to Jiece before he is killed? The power jumps are unreliable or out of control because relying on power levels is a weakness in combat (that is why Vegeta tells Nappa not to rely on his scouter and leave it behind; hence, Vegeta never using it again). Those jumps are not to be taken seriously when factoring in power levels because the scouters are truly useless! Whether a supposed power level is a million or not, it doesn't really matter since the better fighter will win; in such that Goku trains and works hard but not in vain unlike his opponents thus he gets stronger because his vanity, reliance on others or machinery, etc. doesn't hold him back (unlike with Vegeta, Ten, Freeza, the Cyborgs, Cell, Buu relies on magic, etc).

That's not really what the series says, though. The problem wasn't in using scouters or battle powers, but assuming that those figures were absolute, when fighters like the Earthlings could manipulate their battle power. And Vegeta actually does use his scouter after berating Nappa - he does so to measure the battle powers of Gohan and Goku, because scouters and battle powers ARE useful. He measures Gohan's Masenko so that he can see evidence of the Earthling's manipulating their battle power, and measures Goku first with the knowledge that Goku might still be stronger and second to know how strong he is after powering up. By not falling into the trap of assuming he's always reading their maximum, he is able to make use of the scouter and battle powers.

And it's not really true that the better fighter wins. Piccolo was able to knock Freeza around because of the power his fusion with Nail gave him, Goku was losing to Freeza because he didn't have enough power and then won when he became more powerful. Furthermore, Goku and the others use their ability to sense ki the same way others use scouters - to measure the abilities of their opponents. In fact, the term "battle power" is still used in the manga after scouters and numerical values are no longer present.

If Toriyama was actually trying to make the figures look useless, he should had someone with a lower battle power easily defeat someone stronger than him. That never happens. I think the point Toriyama was trying to make was that the problem was the mentality of the Saiyans and Freeza's men (excluding Vegeta and Ginyu to some extent) rather than the scouters or figures themselves.

Yes and no. When a fighter senses Ki they sense their spirit in a way. Like "I sense a very powerful evil Ki!" and the like. I think, based on their ki, that a good fighter will probably have some sort of "good ki" which determines their overall ability. Think back to when Roshi was lecturing Ten, it goes along those same lines. A killer has weakness, due to his evil intentions and ki. That is why Goku, through good intentions (not alone of course, but determination, and some of his knowledge previously) helped defeat Tao Pai Pai. Freeza was overpowered a few times because of similar circumstances, yet Vegeta never got an upper hand on Freeza, ever.
I think too, with Vegeta and Nappa in your example, is that sure the Saiyans could roughly guage their power, but Ten, Gohan, even Krillin (!) were able to nearly kill Nappa if it wasn't for Vegeta, in Gohan's case, or Vegeta warning him to dodge or block the attacks. Not only that, but the Kaioken basically destroys the reliability of a scouter (causing Vegeta to crush his and the Ginyu's to be utterly destroyed). The Kaioken is the ability to focus the mind, spirit, and body (possibly even the user's intent affects the kaioken) to enhance his fighting skill which relates back to what Roshi was saying to Ten.

[Saiga]

...no, it doesn't. The Kaio-ken raises battle power - strength, speed are all part of that. We see that with Bulma and Ginyu's readings of Goku while using the technique. Ginyu's scouter isn't destroyed either, and Vegeta crushes his scouter over Goku's regular battle power without the Kaio-ken.

Only Kuririn's Kienzan was a threat, because it could cut Nappa regardless of the difference in battle power. Ten and Gohan didn't come close to killing him at any point.

I have no idea where this "good ki/intentions" idea is coming from. Goku outperformed Vegeta against Freeza because his battle power was higher. He defeated Tao Pai Pai because Karin's training made him stronger - beforehand, he lost handily despite having better intentions than Tao Pai Pai. Because he was weak.

[Attitudefan]

...no, it doesn't. The Kaio-ken raises battle power - strength, speed are all part of that. We see that with Bulma and Ginyu's readings of Goku while using the technique. Ginyu's scouter isn't destroyed either, and Vegeta crushes his scouter over Goku's regular battle power without the Kaio-ken.

Only Kuririn's Kienzan was a threat, because it could cut Nappa regardless of the difference in battle power. Ten and Gohan didn't come close to killing him at any point.

I have no idea where this "good ki/intentions" idea is coming from. Goku outperformed Vegeta against Freeza because his battle power was higher. He defeated Tao Pai Pai because Karin's training made him stronger - beforehand, he lost handily despite having better intentions than Tao Pai Pai. Because he was weak.

Well, I meant that Vegeta destroyed his scouter out of anger because of Goku's power.

Yes, but obviously Tao Pai Pai would not receive training from Karin (and we do see that through filler). Tao was not weak, he did almost kill Goku in round 1. However, even the training Goku receives from Karin teaches him not only how to be a better fighter, but in a way, a better person.

I think that is also why Ten realized that the path he was going down would keep him down as a fighter. See Freeza: he relied on gift and his ego over anything else and that was his downfall.

[ABED]

I think it's a case of being good gives greater and better motivation for training and fighting than the desire to rule and destroy.

[Attitudefan]

I think it's a case of being good gives greater and better motivation for training and fighting than the desire to rule and destroy.

Pretty much this. And that is why scouters are useless. They force some kind of heirarchy where people can guage their powers and compare. Then, if someone is stronger than another that person can go "haha, I'm stronger than you which makes me better than you in every way possible (see Freeza)".

[RandomGuy96]

On the general topic, it definitely got worse before it got better.

[Saiga]

I sort of agree, but the point where it got worse is in the Freeza arc for me - when Goku arrives on Namek. Then the Android arc immediately improved things, though eventually it got worse again. And then better again. And then worse again.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I have yet to find a single person who thought that DBZ got better after the Namek saga, or at least, stayed consistently good. Although I have met some people who like the Cell or Buu saga the best, they usually admit to that only being due to nostalgia.

Do you know someone who thought DBZ, like DB, just kept getting better? If so, what were their reasons?

I do think that the Cell arc is the worst stretch of the series, but the Buu arc is significantly better and its even better than some stuff previous to the Cell arc.

I'm completely opposite here, I think the Buu arc was the worst simply because Buu was just mindless and OP for the sake of it. Cell actually progressed his strength and shown how he achieved it. He was probably the least OP among all the villains actually.

I find Super Buu very hard to like as a villain, he was just terrible. His nonexistant personality, his excessive yelling and whining and his sheer stupidy in his fight with Vegito made it cringeworthy for me. You'd also think Buu absorbing Gohan would have made him unstoppable especially due to the fact that Gohan's power is released by anger as Super Buu constantly gets butthurt but nope. How is it that Super Buu was also exceptionally smarter and more tactical with Gotenks, but stupid, whiny and cocky with Gohan inside him.... oh wait. Thats the problem.

[rereboy]

I'm completely opposite here, I think the Buu arc was the worst simply because Buu was just mindless and OP for the sake of it. Cell actually progressed his strength and shown how he achieved it. He was probably the least OP among all the villains actually.

I find Super Buu very hard to like as a villain, he was just terrible. His nonexistant personality, his excessive yelling and whining and his sheer stupidy in his fight with Vegito made it cringeworthy for me. You'd also think Buu absorbing Gohan would have made him unstoppable especially due to the fact that Gohan's power is released by anger as Super Buu constantly gets butthurt but nope. How is it that Super Buu was also exceptionally smarter and more tactical with Gotenks, but stupid, whiny and cocky with Gohan inside him.... oh wait. Thats the problem.

Buu is an incredibly fun villain in all his incarnations, while Cell is, quite literally, a character that exists to become perfect by absorbing the androids and once he does, he doesn't know what to do with himself. Its very noticeable that Cell is only there to escalate things by combining several threats into one. Even his personality is completely flat.

[DBZAOTA482]

I'm completely opposite here, I think the Buu arc was the worst simply because Buu was just mindless and OP for the sake of it. Cell actually progressed his strength and shown how he achieved it. He was probably the least OP among all the villains actually.

I find Super Buu very hard to like as a villain, he was just terrible. His nonexistant personality, his excessive yelling and whining and his sheer stupidy in his fight with Vegito made it cringeworthy for me. You'd also think Buu absorbing Gohan would have made him unstoppable especially due to the fact that Gohan's power is released by anger as Super Buu constantly gets butthurt but nope. How is it that Super Buu was also exceptionally smarter and more tactical with Gotenks, but stupid, whiny and cocky with Gohan inside him.... oh wait. Thats the problem.

Buu is an incredibly fun villain in all his incarnations, while Cell is, quite literally, a character that exists to become perfect by absorbing the androids and once he does, he doesn't know what to do with himself. Its very noticeable that Cell is only there to escalate things by combining several threats into one. Even his personality is completely flat.

Didn't you diss Majin Boo as a villain earlier? Also, I disagree with Majin Boo being enjoyable through and through. Maybe at first when he was at least something somewhat original (being a childish brute who can't help his evil impulses rather than being another arrogant sadist) but as soon as he starts absorbing people he becomes a generic arrogant evil guy (especially when he starts absorbing the Saiyans) and Pure Boo is basically Broli with even less depth.

[rereboy]

Me? You must thinking of somebody else. And I'm not saying that Buu is the best villain ever, I'm just saying that compared to Cell, he's great.

[thatdbzguy]

Me? You must thinking of somebody else. And I'm not saying that Buu is the best villain ever, I'm just saying that compared to Cell, he's great.

That's not saying much. At all.

[DBZAOTA482]

Me? You must thinking of somebody else. And I'm not saying that Buu is the best villain ever, I'm just saying that compared to Cell, he's great.

This:

Oh. Well, out of those three I'll say Freeza because he's the only one with a real personality. Cell is only about becoming perfect and once he does he doesn't even know what to do and just decides to test himself for the hell of it. And Buu is just a chaos agent, with the exception of Fat Buu and Good Buu which seem to have more personality.

And I don't agree with him being any better either (in fact he's one of the worst anime villains I have seen). I also don't get you people's beef with Cell. Granted Vegeta or Freeza are much, much better villain than he is but he's one of the best points of the arc for me.

[thatdbzguy]

Me? You must thinking of somebody else. And I'm not saying that Buu is the best villain ever, I'm just saying that compared to Cell, he's great.

This:

Oh. Well, out of those three I'll say Freeza because he's the only one with a real personality. Cell is only about becoming perfect and once he does he doesn't even know what to do and just decides to test himself for the hell of it. And Buu is just a chaos agent, with the exception of Fat Buu and Good Buu which seem to have more personality.

And I don't agree with him being any better either (in fact he's one of the worst anime villains I have seen). I also don't get you people's beef with Cell. Granted Vegeta or Freeza are much, much better villain than he is but he's one of the best points of the arc for me.

Cell is bland, stupid, and lacks motivation.

That's why he's a terrible villain.

[DBZAOTA482]

Me? You must thinking of somebody else. And I'm not saying that Buu is the best villain ever, I'm just saying that compared to Cell, he's great.

This:

Oh. Well, out of those three I'll say Freeza because he's the only one with a real personality. Cell is only about becoming perfect and once he does he doesn't even know what to do and just decides to test himself for the hell of it. And Buu is just a chaos agent, with the exception of Fat Buu and Good Buu which seem to have more personality.

And I don't agree with him being any better either (in fact he's one of the worst anime villains I have seen). I also don't get you people's beef with Cell. Granted Vegeta or Freeza are much, much better villain than he is but he's one of the best points of the arc for me.

Cell is bland, stupid, and lacks motivation.

That's why he's a terrible villain.

Cell's no dumber than Freeza or has any less motivation than Vegeta.

[rereboy]

Me? You must thinking of somebody else. And I'm not saying that Buu is the best villain ever, I'm just saying that compared to Cell, he's great.

This:

Oh. Well, out of those three I'll say Freeza because he's the only one with a real personality. Cell is only about becoming perfect and once he does he doesn't even know what to do and just decides to test himself for the hell of it. And Buu is just a chaos agent, with the exception of Fat Buu and Good Buu which seem to have more personality.

And I don't agree with him being any better either (in fact he's one of the worst anime villains I have seen). I also don't get you people's beef with Cell. Granted Vegeta or Freeza are much, much better villain than he is but he's one of the best points of the arc for me.

So? I was only talking about who is the best out of those three and I gave my reasons for not preferring Buu over Freeza. What I said right now doesn't contradict what I've said in that quote in the slightest, since I never compared Buu with Cell, I only said that I preferred Freeza and then stated the negatives of Cell and Buu.

And I don't have any beef with Cell, I just think he's a worse villain than the others. He's very noticeably a walking plot device designed to make the threats of that arc escalate that doesn't have a personality besides wanting to become perfect, being somewhat intelligent and then not really knowing what to do with his perfection. He's not even a fun character, just somewhat creepy at first (which I guess can be fun) and then bland.

Between him and Buu, I think its obvious that Buu, in his various incarnations, is a better character and villain (and then good guy).

[PelucheCR7]

"Goku didn't actually do that, it's because of a retcon" (trying to make it look like it's not in Goku's character to do this and that somehow he didn't)
I never said that. I said Toriyama wrote the story then contradicted himself, and had to make up a BS excuse which doesn't . I never once said that he didn't write it.

ABED was trying to argue that it didn't fit the story to have Goku stronger than Vegeta, and said that he didn't like that Gohan gets power-ups all the time (though if it was in this thread or another, I'm not sure). I was pointing out that Goku is just as guilty of what he accuses Gohan of, and it seems like ABED likes the story only when it focuses on Goku, since he doesn't like the Buu Saga until the very end when Goku comes back.

No, I said it doesn't make sense storytelling wise that Vegeta is stronger than Goku. I don't like that Gohan constantly gets power ups with no effort. He barely trains, and it's all just handed to him. He's the only one I have a problem with. It's not as interesting to me if the character is passive. Goku isn't a passive character. You'd be wrong about my beef with the Buu arc. Heaven forbid I like Goku. It's perfectly reasonable to think a story is better when a character is present, and that's not even the issue. My problem with the Buu arc is it's too long, a villain that's not that interesting, uninteresting fights, and I don't care for Gotenks. However, I do like the Vegeta/Majin Buu fight, and when Goku comes back into the story.

To your point about me pointing out the 180k, fine, but it doesn't make a lick of sense for Goku to show up and save the day but only be stronger than Vegeta due to Kaio-ken. And I never said I bought Goku's insane power up. For years I thought he went from 180k to 300k, due to a translation error on the Ultimate DBZ Info Site. It made sense because Goku's power increased but not several times over. It was in keeping with all of the other gains characters had made to that point.

I guess Vegeta needed to rest, but I assume the senzu took care of that.

I'll tie this into the true topic by saying all of the insane power ups in this arc does put a damper on the rest of the series because powers go off the scale and every gain is exponential, but the fights don't reflect that. I enjoy the mystery surrounding Cell, so I'm ambivalent towards that arc. The Buu arc is on the long side, the fights aren't particularly good, and the end leaves me cold.

The fights in the buu saga were far better than the ones android saga, well as far as the anime goes, you got fights like gotenks vs buu, goku vs kid buu, majin vegeta vs goku, gotten vs trunks, goku vs fat buu, and gohan vs dabura, which were all pretty good, also gohan vs buu to certain extent. The only goods fight in the android saga was goku vs cell, piccolo vs 17, and to a certain extent cell vs 16. Saying that the buu saga didn't have good fights just feels like your making incoherent details because your forgetting many parts to make your argument valid.

[ABED]

Gotenks vs. Buu - too much comedy.

You make a good point about the lack of good fights in the Cell arc, but there still a lot of great stuff. Buu suffers from the comedy. I don't mind some interspersed, but the fight itself becomes a chucklefest, instead of a serious battle for the fate of the world, it bothers me. It's one of the reasons why Iron Man 3 bothered, too much comedy at inappropriate times.

[ChiChiFan]

Although Frieza saga is my favorite from DBZ, I felt it did get better, especially during the Androids/Cell Saga.