Should Toriyama Have Even Bothered With Cell?

[Cold Skin]

To me, it sorta makes sense that villains would evolve that way.
We have opponents specifically created to battle those "super-power god fighters", and then even having combined genes of these "fighting gods".
So yeah, after "Galactic Tyrant God", it makes sense that the next step is "Anti-Gods creations meant to stomp any god - even the strongest - seen so far in the story".

Similarly, if you've fought the strongest Metal Gear, the next episode will make you deal with the new type of Metal Gear that was meant to be an Anti-Metal Gear able to wipe away the strongest existing Metal Gear.

Thanks to Goku, humans are probably the first to be able to witness such strong warriors and still be here to create something able to precisely counter them (absorbing energy, having infinite energy, having all technics available... all major perks that can cause them trouble aside from the power level itself).
May I remind you that Earth is filled with geniuses able to build what even aliens can't do (or never think of doing), like a system to detect the Dragon Balls.
And those witnessing powers like Freezer were probably gone right after witnessing it, so Earthlings were likely the first to have an occasion to think of analyzing those godly warriors and build beings and technology to counter them (which took years and years to one of those rare Earth genius).

So yes, once the strongest kind of natural being has been explored, it makes sense to head for artificial beings that break the natural limits as a new challenge.
Also, once the sadistic "I want it all" tyrant has been explored, you might want to bring freshness with bad guys that are not "pure evil" and that have other priorities and mindsets than conquering/destroying.

[ABED]

And yes they were to villians, wanting to kill the protector of the world is what villians do, is Lex Luthor not a villian just because he only want's Superman dead?

Lex was more nefarious than just wanting Superman dead. Even if they were classified as villains, they weren't traditional villains. They weren't the main villains, they were leading to Cell. It's actually clever writing to not have them be out for wanton destruction.

Well can you tell me were Cell led the series?

You made the assertion, and I asked the question, the onus is on you.

Cell was a universal threat. He wasn't some means to an end plotwise, he was the end in himself. I disagree that Cell is a step back. Okay, we get an alien invasion and an intergalactic alien kingpin, but how is fighting some evil being with all their powers a step back? I don't see the big deal that he's terrestrial

[Saiga]

While I would have been interested to see how the arc went if the Androids had stayed the main antagonists, I still feel introducing Cell was for the best. Imperfect Cell is absolutely great, and the arc really picks up until he transforms. I think that if Cell had stayed truer to his first form's personality and mannerisms, things would have been great.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

While I would have been interested to see how the arc went if the Androids had stayed the main antagonists, I still feel introducing Cell was for the best. Imperfect Cell is absolutely great, and the arc really picks up until he transforms. I think that if Cell had stayed truer to his first form's personality and mannerisms, things would have been great.

I think Cell was actually necessary to be introduced when he came in. He was more of of a plot-clean up for the Cyborg-Arc considering that without Cell, nothing in the saga was happening at all. If they were still the main antagonists, they would still just be driving around, aimlessly killing people, getting lost, walking around lazily looking for Goku. Even if they went to the ROST to fight 17 and 18 there syill wouldnt be anything going on. Okay they beat them, then what? They as villains didnt mean anything at all. It would have been even more dull than the first half of BoG.

I think Cell was also needed as the "greater evil" to show that 17/18 could be sympathized with. They werent evil just bored. They could have even become Z-Fighters. Also, without Cell, 18 would have no reason to trust Krillin.

[DBZAOTA482]

Yes, things improved when Cell entered the fray. The Artificial Human Saga was seemingly going nowhere with #17 and #18 though I would have liked to see how things would play out if Toriyama-sensei didn't listen to his editor.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I'm not sure. On one hand, Cell is a fucking awful and boring villain. On the other, the androids were even worse. I think the best thing to do would be to keep Cell more like his Imperfect form in both personality and appearance throughout the arc.I gotta agree with the Cell arc really ruining the logical progression and flow of the series. First the enemies are regular criminals and wild animals, then super human martial artists, then a private army, then said private army's personal team of super villains, then demons led by Earth's local Satan, then an even stronger reincarnation of said demon king, then ruthless alien planetary conquerors, the strongest of which can destroy a planet, then even more ruthless galactic alien conquerors to whom the last guys were just henchmen, the strongest of which can casually destroy planets, then for some reason we go back to Earth and get a local story where they just fight robots/cyborgs (like in the pre-Raditz arcs), then more appropriately they fight an ancient god eating demon who ravaged the universe and has the Lord of Worlds scared, and whose second weakest form is still strong enough to output enough energy to destroy the Earth 416,666 times over in one blast without even using full strength.

Except The android Saga was an extention of the Red Ribbon Army arc and the Super-Human martial arts theme. They were also created to compete with Goku who right then was at his peak and wanted to test him by making a creature superior to him so that they could kill him. I don't get how kid buu was so much of a better recieced villain when he didnt have any characterization whatsoever, Cell did, he also had backstory and tied it in to all the Z fighter's past experiences, Buu just appears out of literally no where and hacks god-tier for plot. Cell at least had a realistic concept and plausible creation. Buu has nothing. Babidi has no real ambition. Gero does.

Cell is by far the most boring and bland villain in the series, at least once he becomes perfect. He's not even a villain, really. Just an obstacle. The only reason he even exists is because Toriyama wanted to please his editor.The Cell saga is loaded with significant issues, and Cell himself is one of them. Should Toriyama have just stuck with his original plan with Dr. Gero being the main villain?

Bland and boring? 17 and 18 literally had no reason to even do anything. They just kept complaining about how bored they were wandering around. His editor was right. If this was any other series, villains like 17 and 18 would never be taken seriously. He also couldn't just skip to Buu because Buu had no relevance to any of the prior events at all. How do we skip from Freeza to that?

[TheGmGoken]

Except The android Saga was an extention of the Red Ribbon Army arc and the Super-Human martial arts theme.[/b] They were also created to compete with Goku who right then was at his peak and wanted to test him by making a creature superior to him so that they could kill him. I don't get how kid buu was so much of a better recieced villain when he didnt have any characterization whatsoever, Cell did, he also had backstory and tied it in to all the Z fighter's past experiences, Buu just appears out of literally no where and hacks god-tier for plot. Cell at least had a realistic concept and plausible creation. Buu has nothing. Babidi has no real ambition. Gero does.

Cyborg Arc isn't a continuation of RRBA Arc and the Martial arts theme. In fact Cyborg arc might have started because of RRBA arc but it doesn't need it. Confusing I know. It's like this. Cyborg Arc spun off into it's own thing. It wasn't about killing Goku no more. It was more or less about killing Cyborgs who destroy when bored or think it's a "Game". Then it's about killing a insect. What would be a continuation is Freeza and Saiyan Arc. Freeza arc picks up the story where Saiyan Arc left off and remainded the same basic story the Saiyan arc did. That is Goku being a Saiyan, Vegeta, Gohan(Rage moments), and Piccolo's turning good.

[Cursed Lemon]

The tournament was an absolutely stupid plot point, but I like Cell as a villain, and he got us SSJ2 Gohan so hey!

[RandomGuy96]

Except The android Saga was an extention of the Red Ribbon Army arc and the Super-Human martial arts theme.

No, it wasn't. Gero was stated to be a RR scientist, but he wasn't even in the RR arc and has no real connection to them beyond a throwaway comment and his hat. Take away that line and the RR symbols on the androids and nothing would change. Even his motivation is more "take over the world" than "revenge".

They were also created to compete with Goku who right then was at his peak and wanted to test him by making a creature superior to him so that they could kill him.

Okay. Not sure what that has to do with anything. Or how a crazy old man invented infinite energy in his basement with limited resources.

I don't get how kid buu was so much of a better recieced villain when he didnt have any characterization whatsoever, Cell did, he also had backstory and tied it in to all the Z fighter's past experiences, Buu just appears out of literally no where and hacks god-tier for plot. Cell at least had a realistic concept and plausible creation. Buu has nothing. Babidi has no real ambition. Gero does

I like Pure Buu better than Perfect Cell because literally any villain in this series is better than that stupid, bland, rip-off piece of bug shit.

Buu does come out of nowhere, but there's actually a plausible reason for that involving epic ancient battles of gods and demons (well, A demon). He felt big, and more importantly, unlike Cell he's actually entertaining.

Plausible creation? Realistic concept!? Do you know how biology works? His creation was less plausible than Buu's, who at least had magic as an excuse. He's an ancient god eating eldritch abomination, it's fitting that he'd be really strong. And even then, he's FAAAAAAR too weak to oppose the two strongest saiyans, thus necessitating the whole absorption ability; even with the two greatest gods of the universe absorbed, he still gets kicked around by Gotenks and Gohan (way stronger than Goku, though) until he goes further with the whole absorption plan.

They each have the same loosely defined goal: kill one specific person they have a grudge against, then take over the world/galaxy. If anything Babidi is the more ambitious one here.

Judging from your criticism of Super Buu as a villain in that other thread, saying he's lame for doing stuff he never did, I'm guessing you either haven't watched/read this arc or have a very bad memory of it.

[hleV]

Dragon Ball would be shit if Toriyama didn't have an editor assisting him.

[ABED]

Even his motivation is more "take over the world" than "revenge".

Except his creations wanted to kill Goku, even the ones that didn't listen to him (sans #8)

And it was hardly a throwaway comment.

[Dbzfan94]

Dragon Ball would be shit if Toriyama didn't have an editor assisting him.

I wouldn't necessarily say it'd be shit, but it'd sure as hell be a lot different.

[Mystic Buu]

Dragon Ball would be shit if Toriyama didn't have an editor assisting him.

You're right.I really can't imagine how could #19 and #20 be the main villians.Or #17 and #18.Cell is really great villian compared to them.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Cyborg Arc isn't a continuation of RRBA Arc and the Martial arts theme. In fact Cyborg arc might have started because of RRBA arc but it doesn't need it. Confusing I know. It's like this. Cyborg Arc spun off into it's own thing. It wasn't about killing Goku no more. It was more or less about killing Cyborgs who destroy when bored or think it's a "Game". Then it's about killing a insect. What would be a continuation is Freeza and Saiyan Arc. Freeza arc picks up the story where Saiyan Arc left off and remainded the same basic story the Saiyan arc did. That is Goku being a Saiyan, Vegeta, Gohan(Rage moments), and Piccolo's turning good.

Well I mean, it has the most connection to the former establishments of the world surrounding Goku than Buu did. Throught the time skip that passed until the cyborg saga was all the time Gero had into trying to find suitable research into a weapon that would destroy him and get them world domination. Android 8 was their start and Cell was the final product of the evolution of their experiments. It isnt a direct sequel but it is a continuation.

Dragon Ball would be shit if Toriyama didn't have an editor assisting him.

The story wouldnt go anywhere without Akira's editor advising him to forward certain plot points. I mean 17 and 18 arent villains at all, and if Cell didnt exist it wouldnt even have been a true saga. They dont even have backstories. (Akiras trademark) Akira doesnt really write plot-driven stories, hes a gag author and writes more of episodic sitcom stories from what I got. If DBZ was up to him alone the show would have been as bad as the first third of Battle of Gods. His style of comedy doesnt really work in DBZ, I rarely found it funny outside the old dub (which made it funnier). Ooshi's Yo-Son-Goku short is what DBZ's comedy should be, subtle but relevant. She nailed it.

[RandomGuy96]

Even his motivation is more "take over the world" than "revenge".

Except his creations wanted to kill Goku, even the ones that didn't listen to him (sans #8)

And it was hardly a throwaway comment.

Who cares? His plan was to take over the world. Goku himself was mostly incidental. That's just a smaller and pettier version of Vegeta, Freeza, and Babidi's motivations.

Yeah, it really was. If you just cut out the Red Ribbon part of Gero and just said he was a generic evil mad scientist, would anything change? Would you need to change anything about him or any of his creations in any way?

[ABED]

Even his motivation is more "take over the world" than "revenge".

Except his creations wanted to kill Goku, even the ones that didn't listen to him (sans #8)

And it was hardly a throwaway comment.

Who cares? His plan was to take over the world. Goku himself was mostly incidental. That's just a smaller and pettier version of Vegeta, Freeza, and Babidi's motivations.

Yeah, it really was. If you just cut out the Red Ribbon part of Gero and just said he was a generic evil mad scientist, would anything change? Would you need to change anything about him or any of his creations in any way?

No, it doesn't qualify at all as a throwaway comment. It's constantly brought up, hence, not a throwaway.

Adding the Red Ribbon Army gives it a reason, we don't need a long explanation for his reasons, and tying it to the past gives a more integrated feel. Yes, Toriyama could've done a better job with making it feel more personal and giving Gero more personality but the idea is still a strong idea.

Why does it matter if his motivations were petty? He's a bad guy. Goku was hardly incidental, the villains were going after him.