Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Our guide here on Kanzenshuu lists it the other way around, because presumably something got mixed up in the transition to the pamphlet from the Carddass cards they originally stemmed from.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/ ... amphlet-08

If I had to pick one or the other, I'd agree the power suits Daiz better, even if just because he was matched up against Goku.

It's listed as that there because the cards said Daiz was 13,000 while the pamphlet itself said Cacao was. If I had to pick, I'd say that the pamphlets would hold higher authority than the cards just by virtue of being pamphlets (though they both have basically none, I just like using them as a novelty). Also because Cacao is way cooler than Daiz.

I think I may use Movie 2's levels too as another novelty, aside from the fat yellow guy's. That movie didn't give a shit about power consistency anyway, and the levels don't seem to contradict anything. Well, aside from Roshi dispatching several Bio-Men, but it fits one of the two fight scenes they're in, and they were never going to get a level for them that didn't have any contradictions.

EDIT: So upon reviewing the Kanzenshuu battle power guide, I see that the text says that "Garlic Jr and trio" has a battle power of 1,450. If that means all four of them together are 1,450, then that means Garlic Jr is just 400, so those levels can actually fit. It just requires you to think Piccolo only needs a moderate gap to pwn Sansho, which can be attributed to shuuki loss. Overall, I've concluded that the movie levels given in these pamphlets CAN fit (there's just one shaky one, Tullece's, and it can be changed). There's not anything wrong with most of them, buuuuut just remember where they came from. The same pamphlet has Cui at LESS THAN 9,000!!!! They shouldn't be taken seriously.

EDIT EDIT: Actually, upon rewatching the fight, fat yellow guy only got in hits on Goku by catching him off guard. So there's nothing wrong with the level the pamphlet gave him either.

Example:

Movie 1

Goku- 416
Piccolo- 408
Kami- 320
Gohan- 1
--Mad- 710

Garlic Jr- 400
--Super- 500
Ginger- 280
--Super- 350
Sansho- 280
--Super- 350
Nicky- 280
--Super- 350

Movie 2

Goku- 9,500
--KK x2- 19,000
--KK x3- 28,500
--KK x4- 38,000
Piccolo- 8,900
Roshi- 139
--+Toei Hax- 6,000
Gohan- 981
Krillin- 1,800

Dr. Uiro- 22,000
--Post-Power Up- 39,000
Ebifurya- 7,500
Kishime- 7,000
Misokatsun- 4,300
Bio-Men- 1,000

Movie 3

Goku- 34,000
--KK x10- 340,000
Piccolo- 18,000
Gohan- 10,000
Tenshinhan- 7,000
Krillin- 6,700
Yamcha- 5,600
Chiaotzu- 2,300

Tullece- 30,000
--Fruited-Up- 450,000
Cacao- 13,000
Amond- 9,100
Daiz- 8,400
Raisin- 8,000
That Other Purple Guy- 7,600

[Saiga]

He deserves to be the strongest on part of being a totally awesome looking cyborg. Though it does make you wonder why he fought Yamcha.

Guess he's programmed for overkill.

[Gyt Kaliba]

So, I'm not really much for power level discussions, but I was thinking about a particular character earlier, and was kind of curious as to where you guys who are more power-level inclined would place him strength wise. The person in question is Paragus. I was just thinking back on movie 8 and realized that, really, he didn't do a single thing fight-wise. I don't even remember him flying or anything, off the top of my head, but I'm sure he must've at some point.

[ZombieVito]

He did do something, get beat up by King Vegeta. He was obviously weaker than 10,000 (Baby Broly). I'll put him anywhere from 5,000 - 8,000.

[Kamiccolo9]

Paragus does say something about being an elite Saiyan, right? I'd say that would put him in the multi-thousand range. Probably nothing more than that though.

[kuartus4]

First time I've noticed they had Goku at 180,000. Does it mention that's with the Kaio-ken?

Yeah, I'm wondering that too. Anyone know? That'd be rather helpful. I find it weird that the battle power guide doesn't mention those two levels.

Anyway, I just had a thought: battle powers are supposed to be a numerical representation of a character's power, right? That'd imply that they're accurate and proportionate. However, I've often seen it said that they're not, and that a person with a power level of 10,000 wouldn't necessarily have half the power of someone at 20,000. But the kaio-ken is stated to increase the user's strength and ki, and the stated multipliers align exactly with battle powers (KK x2 Goku = 16,000, KK x3 Goku = 24,000, etc.). Which pretty much means that they are. I've found that this actually can work- for the manga, at least.

This rather interesting calculation uses math and the spread of Earth's debris to find the power of Pure Buu's Vanishing Ball. The calc estimated it at 416,666 times the power needed to just destroy the Earth: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=15373. Seems fairly accurate.

If you assume that Saiyan Saga Vegeta's Galick Gun was the first attack strong enough to bust a planet, and that Pure Buu's Vanishing Ball wasn't his full power (both of which are supported in the manga), it makes some sense.

Vegeta's Galick Gun is around 25,000. Since Pure Buu didn't need to use that much power just to make an attack much stronger than SS Goku and SS Vegeta (or the SS2 versions, if you prefer the anime), let's just assume he only used a fourth of his power to destroy the Earth. So 416,666 Galick Guns would be equivalent to 25% of Pure Buu's power.

25,000 x 416,666 = 10,416,650,000 BP

10416650000 x 4 = 41,666,600,000

That roughly lines up with most estimates of Pure Buu's full battle power. I probably made an error... please inform me if I did...

This is only marginally related to the stated purpose of the thread, but I thought that others might find this interesting, since until I read that kaio-ken tidbit I didn't think power levels were linear.

If we take PL's linearly and assume that weighted Piccolo's PL of 322 is the minimum PL needed to bust the moon, then since it takes roughly 1800x more energy to bust the earth than the moon, someone would need a PL of about 580,000 to bust an earth like planet, roughly the same PL of first form frieza, the first confirmed planet buster.

[RandomGuy96]

So, I'm not really much for power level discussions, but I was thinking about a particular character earlier, and was kind of curious as to where you guys who are more power-level inclined would place him strength wise. The person in question is Paragus. I was just thinking back on movie 8 and realized that, really, he didn't do a single thing fight-wise. I don't even remember him flying or anything, off the top of my head, but I'm sure he must've at some point.

He was able to hold down SS Broly in a flashback. He's obviously > Semi-Cell and every other base saiyan.

[Kamiccolo9]

If we take PL's linearly and assume that weighted Piccolo's PL of 322 is the minimum PL needed to bust the moon, then since it takes roughly 1800x more energy to bust the earth than the moon, someone would need a PL of about 580,000 to bust an earth like planet, roughly the same PL of first form Freeza, the first confirmed planet buster.

Except that's not the minimum power needed to bust the moon. Roshi had already done it once during the 21st Budokai.

[Kaboom]

Roshi did it while buffed up with a "max power" Kamehameha. So maybe that amplified his normal power up into the same general range as a casual one-handed blast from the much stronger Piccolo.

I'd say the minimum "moon-busting" power level falls somewhere between those two. Maybe right around the 100 mark or so?

[RandomGuy96]

Things become a lot simpler if you assume the moon is small.

Anyway, even though I don't actually believe Goku and Piccolo were 408 and 416, I just re-read the battle power guide and was reminded that levels like King Piccolo's 260 were reprinted in Daizenshuu 7 (though not dumb ones like Kami at 220, Cyborg Tao at 210, and Roshi at 180). Seems kinda pointless to keep sticking to my theory if the official BPs don't seem to support it. So instead I'll do my best to make sense of what the Daiz (and that pamphlet, for lols) already gives from the 22nd tournament to Raditz's arrival.

I'll pretty much have to ignore every statement relating to numerical power though (e.g many times greater, not even half, several times more powerful). Also, due to the tiny amount of space I'll have to get creative with what amount of power the characters use at any given time (they can be handicapped by fatigue and injury). Before I do though, a couple questions for ya'll:

How strong do you think Cymbal is? Piccolo said he was many times weaker than Tambourine, but that doesn't seem to fit.

Is there anything suggesting Cyborg Tao > 23rd Krillin and Yamcha? Because Ten defeated him in one hit, while Krillin was at least a distant rival to Ten.

Is is possible for Ten to still be weaker than King Piccolo at the 23rd? Did he even know how to sense ki in the King Piccolo arc?

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, sooooo... no responses. I'll have to make some assumptions then. I'd still appreciate a response to the V-Jump scan, if anyone knows about that.

Anyway: 22nd Budokai, King Piccolo, 23rd Budokai, and Movie 1 numbers:

Spoiler:

Just some pre-22nd numbers for context:

Karin- 190

Goku- 75
--Post-Training- 150

Tao- 110

(levels are pretty self-explanatory here; Karin actually had his level given in the Daiz, and I see nothing wrong with it. Tao's is a common fanon number, and Goku is high enough to stomp Tao, but not so high Tao's best attack doesn't hurt at all)

22nd Budokai

Goku- 180
Roshi- 139
Krillin- 97
Yamcha- 88

(The numbers for Goku and Roshi come from the Daiz. Yamcha and Krillin are appropriately far behind them both, but Krillin can at least beat Chiaotzu)


Tenshinhan- 170
Crane Hermit- 120
Chiaotzu- 80

(I know the Daiz has Ten at 180 during the whole King Piccolo mess, but I'm assuming that his fight with Goku plus training to use the Mafuba made him a little bit stronger. He's strong enough to easily stomp Yamcha and maintain a healthy advantage on Roshi, but Goku seems to be his equal if not superior. Crane Hermit is at his official level, and Chiaotzu is at a level where he won't be COMPLETELY stomped by Krillin, but still low enough that the Crane Hermit can easily kill him, as he threatened.)

King Piccolo arc

Goku- 180
--vs Tambourine- 105
--vs Piccolo- 170
--Post-water- 260
Tenshinhan- 180
Yajirobe- 130

(Only changed levels are listed here; the others are the same as they were. Goku wasn't at full power against Tambourine, obviously, explaining why he lost. I'm stretching a bit more for the case with Piccolo; I mostly did this to make the gap wider, but I think Goku might not have been QUITE at his maximum when fighting Piccolo due to wasting some effort dispatching Tambourine. He also wouldn't have been anywhere near his max when he fired that Kamehameha at Piccolo, due to being beaten around. His 260 number is from the Daiz, same with Ten's 180.)

(Yajirobe was able to match "match level" Goku, but seemed awed at Goku's full power.)

King Piccolo (old)- 230
--Young- 260
Drum- 210
--vs Goku- 190
Tambourine- 140
Cymbal- 105
Piano- 7

(Like I said, ignoring the half-power statement completely is necessary to make the manga and Daiz levels work if you assume that they're maxes. 260 for young Piccolo comes from the Daiz, and the rest are pretty easy conjecture. Drum wasted some power and stamina beating Ten, and took an off guard kick from Goku before they really 'fought', so he wasn't at his max when Goku one-shotted him. Cymbal was stated to be many times weaker than Tambourine, but that doesn't seem to fit any other statement or feat, so I guess I'll have to throw that one out like all of the other "many times greater" statements.)

Kami- 320
Popo- 300

(Popo is stronger than Goku (my level for him is the same as that pamphlet, coincidentally enough), but was mostly pwning him due to his ki sensing skills. Kami is even greater than that.)

23rd Budokai

Goku- 390
Kami- 320
Tenshinhan- 235
Krillin- 194
Yamcha- 168
Chiaotzu- 102

(Self-explanatory; everyone's a bit weaker than they are when Raditz arrives. Ten being weaker than King Piccolo seems contradictory, given that he said that the Goku he was fighting evenly with (suppressed) was far above King Piccolo, but Ten wouldn't actually have any way of knowing that, since he can't sense ki at this point.)

Piccolo- 380

(ditto)

Tao- 160

(Tao thinks that his cybernetics have given him enough power to beat Goku. He was wrong. While he could probably beat Goku from back then, everyone's made major strides, and now even Tenshinhan can take him out in a single blow.)

Movie 1

Garlic Jr- 400
--Super- 500
Ginger- 280
--Buff- 350
Sansho- 280
--Buff- 350
Nikki- 280
--Buff- 350

(I used the levels from that old pamphlet for the lols. Base Garlic Jr handily outmatches Kami, and in his 'super' form also outmatches Goku and Piccolo apart, their his team-up overwhelms him. His henchmen similarly can take out Piccolo with a numbers advantage and the element of surprise, but without it are easily defeated. Sansho may have had lower shuuki or yuuki while fighting Piccolo if the gap here looks too small.)

Goku- 416
Piccolo- 408
Kami- 320
Krillin- 206
Gohan- 1
--Angry- 710

(I assume this is like a week before Raditz shows up, so yeah. I decided to give Gohan the same 'mad' level he had when Raditz first scouted him, just for the lols, and to emphasize that Garlic Jr is a weaker counterpart to Raditz.)

[Kaboom]

Just a small FYI that I made a few tweaks to my series and movies power levels I linked to back on Page 201. The only noticeable thing is scaling down Goku and Vegeta's post-Boo power increases a little bit. I did so both to hold a little more true to what Toriyama implied about them hitting their limits towards the end of the manga, as well as to mesh with my revised starting level for Goku in my power levels for GT Revised (which, naturally, stem from my made-up numbers for the manga).

EDIT: Meeeeh, scratch that. Changed them back. I like my GTR numbers the way they are, and I've got good reason for them to be that way in the first place.

[RandomGuy96]

I also made minor revisions to my current PL list on page 203. Most of the revisions were just minor scaling changes as a result of setting base Buu Saga Goku back to 75,000,000 (from my former 81,000,000). I like it this way; a lot of the numbers look neater (e.g. SS3 Goku is 30 billion, Super Buu is 50 billion, SS3 Gotenks is 60 billion, etc.).

[Vice]

If anyone cares to, would you mind PMing me your latest list so I can use as a reference?

Thanks.

[ZombieVito]

I also made minor revisions to my current PL list on page 203. Most of the revisions were just minor scaling changes as a result of setting base Buu Saga Goku back to 75,000,000 (from my former 81,000,000). I like it this way; a lot of the numbers look neater (e.g. SS3 Goku is 30 billion, Super Buu is 50 billion, SS3 Gotenks is 60 billion, etc.).

So you have Post Roast SSJ Gotenks equal than SSJ2 Goku...?

[RandomGuy96]

Nah, I just use different multipliers as shown on the list:

Base- 8
SS- 20
SS2- 30
SS3- 60

The SS forms have always had weird interactions with fusion and regular ki logic in general (SS Gotenks appears to be way more powerful than he should be against Buu, SS3 for some reason cuts down on fusion time, Gotenks might not have even gotten SS2, no one bothered to use Gotenks for the Genki-Dama, etc.) so I don't see a problem here, as I don't think Gotenks and co being tens of times stronger than Pure Buu and Goku really fits. I was also thinking about actually using the fight between SS Gotenks and Super Buu for serious feats (like the headbutt), but that'd suggest that for fusions the jump from SS to SS3 is just x1.5.

[ZombieVito]

Is it anywhere even implied that he got different multipliers..?

[RandomGuy96]

Is it anywhere even implied that he got different multipliers..?

It's implied a lot of places (such as the Genki-Dama scene) that SS3 Goku and Pure Buu aren't many times weaker.

Anyway, it is some places. Many guidebooks imply SK was an additive absorption (one guidebook simply states that Buu absorbed the Kaioshin's power, another states FP Fat Buu is only somewhat weaker than Buff Buu). One guidebook states (base/SS?) Gotenks is ONLY "many times stronger" than (base/SS?) Goten (if SS Gotenks was already SS3 tier, he'd be more like tens of times stronger). In the manga, SS Gotenks actually hurts Super Buu with a physical attack, and Buu was never noted to power up after, yet Buu later puts up a fight against SS3 Gotenks. Et cetera.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

One guidebook states (base/SS?) Gotenks is ONLY "many times stronger" than (base/SS?) Goten (if SS Gotenks was already SS3 tier, he'd be more like tens of times stronger).

Many dozens of times is many times.

[RandomGuy96]

Then they would have said "tens of times" or "dozens of times".