Gohan might be still stronger than Goku

[Low Tone G]

The thing about this post in relation to Battle of Gods is that Gohan/every other character in DB universe doesn't matter at all to Beerus. All he heard was "some guy beat Freeza" and so Beerus was like "OMFG strongest duude must fight." There was never a point where there was a notion of anyone else being stronger than Goku. If you put notions of fans wanting Goku front and center aside, then in the film all you have is EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER believing that Goku is the only one who can even touch Beerus even if they don't want him to. Personally, I just go by what I see because in the end, the final product is all that matters, creator/studio/company goals = money and therefore I believe that when discussing in-universe you can't pull away and say "Well Toriyama wants Gohan to be strongest so.. Battle of Gods is only focused on Goku because of fans blah blah.." So that's my two cents. In my mind I like the idea of Gohan being stronger but after the saiyaman stuff and the posing along with going back to his "studies" that no one cares about... Yeah my feeling for him as a character dropped significantly. I still like him but, on paper/anime I will always be entertained with Goku as the star which = more money in the creator/licensor/distributor etc. pockets.

This is my impression too. As when Vegeta heard about Goku to be defeated with two hits, he could also say: "That means nothing Gotenks or in the worst case Gohan will handle the Hakaishin guy." But not, Vegeta was affraid then, that could mean that from Majin Buu saga lots of things have changed in power relations.

[Gutsxgoku]

The thing about this post in relation to Battle of Gods is that Gohan/every other character in DB universe doesn't matter at all to Beerus. All he heard was "some guy beat Freeza" and so Beerus was like "OMFG strongest duude must fight." There was never a point where there was a notion of anyone else being stronger than Goku. If you put notions of fans wanting Goku front and center aside, then in the film all you have is EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER believing that Goku is the only one who can even touch Beerus even if they don't want him to. Personally, I just go by what I see because in the end, the final product is all that matters, creator/studio/company goals = money and therefore I believe that when discussing in-universe you can't pull away and say "Well Toriyama wants Gohan to be strongest so.. Battle of Gods is only focused on Goku because of fans blah blah.." So that's my two cents. In my mind I like the idea of Gohan being stronger but after the saiyaman stuff and the posing along with going back to his "studies" that no one cares about... Yeah my feeling for him as a character dropped significantly. I still like him but, on paper/anime I will always be entertained with Goku as the star which = more money in the creator/licensor/distributor etc. pockets.

This is my impression too. As when Vegeta heard about Goku to be defeated with two hits, he could also say: "That means nothing Gotenks or in the worst case Gohan will handle the Hakaishin guy." But not, Vegeta was affraid then, that could mean that from Majin Buu saga lots of things have changed in power relations.

It reminds me a lot of how the Z warriors basically just distracted Nappa and Vegeta until Goku finally arrives only they distract Beerus with good ol' fashion BBQ's, Japanese style.

[dbzfan7]

Goku would still be stronger in SSJ God...unless Gohan tapped into his hidden powers through rage, which he said he couldn't do in the Boo Saga. Gohan's ultimate state is pretty much his ability to access his hidden power without relying on an emotional rage boost like he did with SSJ2. So the only way Gohan would be stronger is if he could use his rage boost on top of SSJ God.

[Kaboom]

At this point I almost WANT Toriyama to come forward and plainly say either "I intended to portray Goku as the strongest after all when he defeated Boo" or the opposite for Gohan or Gotenks, just to end all the debate. If he said Goku was #1 then it'd take some chopping up and reinterpretation of some things in the Boo arc for it to make sense (though not much more than it already does for Gohan and Gotenks to be stronger than him), but at least the matter would be settled.

[Kamiccolo9]

At this point I almost WANT Toriyama to come forward and plainly say either "I intended to portray Goku as the strongest after all when he defeated Boo" or the opposite for Gohan or Gotenks, just to end all the debate. If he said Goku was #1 then it'd take some chopping up and reinterpretation of some things in the Boo arc for it to make sense (though not much more than it already does for Gohan and Gotenks to be stronger than him), but at least the matter would be settled.

All that would happen is that you'd get more "Toriyama just forgot" nonsense from everyone who doesn't agree.

[Kaboom]

All that would happen is that you'd get more "Toriyama just forgot" nonsense from everyone who doesn't agree.

Well, those people being stubborn and resistant wouldn't take away any closure or security from the rest of us.

[TheGmGoken]

At this point I almost WANT Toriyama to come forward and plainly say either "I intended to portray Goku as the strongest after all when he defeated Boo" or the opposite for Gohan or Gotenks, just to end all the debate. If he said Goku was #1 then it'd take some chopping up and reinterpretation of some things in the Boo arc for it to make sense (though not much more than it already does for Gohan and Gotenks to be stronger than him), but at least the matter would be settled.

All that would happen is that you'd get more "Toriyama just forgot" nonsense from everyone who doesn't agree.

How does that even make sense? "Toriyama just forgot!". I'm sure Toriyama still remembers power. Since this is POST Boo I can see Goku being stronger.

[Flame Dragon]

Meh... At this point i wonder why Gohan even bothers fightning. As long as Toei is in "Goku Mode", he will never accomplish anything.
I think it's healthy for a series when there is more than one character fightning for the #1 place, makes things more interesting.
Gets boring to watch everyone wait for Goku every time.
That's why i liked Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Trunks surpassing each other costantly in the Cell Arc.

But fuck me if i know anything, the only thing that matters is the money Goku brings in, right?

[dbgtFO]

I agree that Goku is now the strongest and Vegeta now the second strongest, with rage boost even stronger than SS3 Goku.
The current Dragon Ball material just won't acknowledge Gohan and Gotenks' power, so much so, that freaking Vegeta looks more impressive than them.
In universe reason: Gohan and the kids dropped a Whole lot of power between the end of the Buu arc and BoG.

[sekzee]

Well, if you begin to think of ki's components, you would realize that Vegeta gained access to about a third of his ki potential (since he is now fighting for others rather than just himself), so that probably helped him as he amplified his power through rage...even if it didn't do much.

[RandomGuy96]

At this point I almost WANT Toriyama to come forward and plainly say either "I intended to portray Goku as the strongest after all when he defeated Boo" or the opposite for Gohan or Gotenks, just to end all the debate. If he said Goku was #1 then it'd take some chopping up and reinterpretation of some things in the Boo arc for it to make sense (though not much more than it already does for Gohan and Gotenks to be stronger than him), but at least the matter would be settled.

But he already did that in the manga by having Goku outright say those guys were stronger than him. A dozen times.

[sekzee]

At this point I almost WANT Toriyama to come forward and plainly say either "I intended to portray Goku as the strongest after all when he defeated Boo" or the opposite for Gohan or Gotenks, just to end all the debate. If he said Goku was #1 then it'd take some chopping up and reinterpretation of some things in the Boo arc for it to make sense (though not much more than it already does for Gohan and Gotenks to be stronger than him), but at least the matter would be settled.

But he already did that in the manga by having Goku outright say those guys were stronger than him. A dozen times.

Nuh-uh!

[dbgtFO]

Well Goku never confirmed Gohan and Gotenks were stronger than him, IIRC.

[RandomGuy96]

He outright said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and later he said Super Buu's strength was far superior to his. Unless Super Buu is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, then yeah, he actually did confirm his inferiority.

[Saiga]

Nothing stops Toriyama from saying he intended for Goku to be the strongest, but that would would be a retcon. The events of a the Boo arc don't even work that way by twisting them. You have to straight up ignore/fabricate parts for it to work.

[qjz123]

He outright said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and later he said Super Buu's strength was far superior to his. Unless Super Buu is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, then yeah, he actually did confirm his inferiority.

Do you believe that SSJ Gotenks pre ROSAT is stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

[RandomGuy96]

But even the final portion of the story repeatedly states or shows Gohan/Gotenks/Super > Goku. So it wouldn't even work as a retcon. If Toriyama said that, I'd actually be on the "he just doesn't know what he's talking about anymore" side.

Do you believe that SSJ Gotenks pre ROSAT is stronger than SSJ3 Goku?

Maybe. It doesn't really matter. The main thing, though, is that Goku does indeed confirm that he's weaker than Super Buu (and Gotenks, if you think his prediction is even the tiniest bit accurate). Old Kai also confirms Gohan's superiority to Goku when he says Ultimate Gohan is/will be (can't remember context) the universe's strongest warrior. Also, Super Buu states his superiority to Goku later after sensing his SS3 ki as Buutenks (to be clear, he says that he's stronger than Goku even when he as no one absorbed). Et cetera. There are a lot more statements like this, but these are just the most straight forward ones.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

How much clearer was he supposed to be, exactly? What else could he have done?

Also, I think one of the manga covers or the narrator or something like that states that Super Buu and Gotenks were competing for the title of strongest in the universe without mentioning Goku.

[sekzee]

You know, technically Goku would be out of the equation since he's, well...uh...dead?

[RandomGuy96]

The Afterlife is part of the universe, which means the sum of everything. So it wouldn't matter if he were dead (also, Vegeta being dead didn't stop Elder Kai from saying that he was one of the strongest in the universe). BOG also says that there are 12 other universes; it clearly counts the whole 'prime' DBU as its own unit, which would include the Afterlife.

Again, what could Toriyama have done? That's one of the most straight forward and simple power statements in the whole manga. Why would he need to say it again?

[sekzee]

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

He makes a distinction between the two.