The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:30 am

How would he possibly deduce that he's stronger than SS3 Vegetto just from that? Yes, he easily beat SS3 Goku, but that doesn't mean much, and there's still Gohan and Gotenks to prove Kaio wrong, assuming he is.
Exactly. Goku assumed that Kaio was correct, hence the "probably" in his statement.
That doesn't seem to be what happens. He doesn't get angry and decide to power up. He gets angry, and that lets him power up. Otherwise, I think we probably would have received an indication of him doing it without a rage boost.
We never got a statement saying that Boo's power changes with his emotions. Non-angry Boo's power was below SS2 Goku & Vegeta, yet he could fight with SS3 Goku evenly without getting angry. That, and every time Boo powers up, it looks like he is doing it intentionally.
Tenshinhan sensed Daimao's ki.
He did?
He said that weighted Goku had far surpassed Daimao (well, specifically he said that he far surpassed his own power when he fought King Piccolo, but same thing really). He proceeds to fight evenly with him.
Tenshinhan says that Goku got stronger than he was back then, but Tenshinhan still seems to have a disadvantage in power against weighted Goku, since the way he talks is like saying "you may be stronger, but I'm faster". Look at Tenshinhan's & Goku's faces as they fight before Tenshinhan made the statement. Goku doesn't look like to be putting that much effort, while Tenshinhan is putting a lot of effort.
And you don't think those two statements are supposed to tie together at all? "You can't become a god, just raise your battle power, and you'll never get to Beerus' level like that."
Of course they tie-in, Goku was supposed to transform into as Super Saiyan God. He was supposed to get stronger and become a god. He wasn't trying to become the Kami of Earth, or the Kaio of the North Galaxy. How many times do I have to repeat that?
Is it ever stated that he CAN? Because a big deal is made of the fact that they can't, so it'd be weird if Piccolo could the whole time and just stayed quiet about it.
From what I recall, the only ones that tried to sense a god's power in the movie was Goku (trying to sense Beerus), and Kuririn (trying to sense God Goku).

And why was that a big deal? They didn't need Piccolo or Dende to say that Beerus was strong, it was obvious by how he defeated everyone so effortlessly.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:54 am

Yep.

Chapter: 156, P13.1-5
Context: still talking about Piccolo's full power
Tenshinhan: “A-an absolutely incredible ki!”

But Beerus hasn't actually done anything impressive yet to prove he is even on the same level as characters much weaker than SS Vegetto. How does he get SS3 Vegetto < Beerus from that?

He gets angry, gets stronger, and stays that way. Him doing it intentionally and being able to do so whenever he wants is an interpretation that causes many issues. For example, why still hold back such a gigantic amount of power when he's pissed and wants to beat someone up?

Ten was obviously weaker, but not by a lot, and he was also faster. Yet this Goku is MUCH stronger and somewhat faster than Daimao.

Because then they could know how strong, and not get beaten needlessly.
That's what I'm saying. The scene says Goku needs godly ki to fight Beerus.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:00 am

Here's one:

1,000 low class Oozarus + 10 elite Oozarus + 2 super-elite Oozarus vs 1st form Freeza

This is more of a question of what your opinion is of how large scale ki battles work. Freeza was stated by Zarbon, in the Bardock special, and in Daizenshuu 7 to be afraid of the saiyans all uniting and rising up against him. If they had done so, and somehow organized themselves into one army, could they have actually killed him?

I say yes, assume they get the jump on him and he doesn't transform.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:49 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Yep.

Chapter: 156, P13.1-5
Context: still talking about Piccolo's full power
Tenshinhan: “A-an absolutely incredible ki!”
Good to know, I wasn't aware of that. Then I guess at least Tenshinhan knows how to do it.
But Beerus hasn't actually done anything impressive yet to prove he is even on the same level as characters much weaker than SS Vegetto. How does he get SS3 Vegetto < Beerus from that?
He proved Kaio's words to a degree by getting his ass kicked so easily by him, so he thought that Kaio must probably be correct.
He gets angry, gets stronger, and stays that way.
This is a valid interpretation, but not the only one.
why still hold back such a gigantic amount of power when he's pissed and wants to beat someone up?
He doesn't? He was powering up every time someone pissed him to beat them up.

Because then they could know how strong, and not get beaten needlessly.
It all happened too fast when Beerus attacked, and everyone realized quickly that they were no match for Beerus. Vegeta already knew he was weaker, yet he still fought. Would you expect Piccolo saying "stop he is much stronger than everyone!", and then everyone would sit back and let Beerus destroy the Earth?
That's what I'm saying. The scene says Goku needs godly ki to fight Beerus.
No, the scene says that Goku needs Super Saiyan God to fight Beerus, and if he doesn't have godly ki, he can't be a Super Saiyan God.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by TheGmGoken » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:47 am

......
Goten(Eoz) vs Avocado
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:50 am

TheGmGoken wrote:......
Goten(Eoz) vs Avocado
Goten stomps. I have Abo & Cado around 1st Form Freeza, and Aka around Full Power Freeza.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Saiga » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:42 am

TheGmGoken wrote:......
Goten(Eoz) vs Avocado
I don't remember the OVA too well, so I'm just going off the manga. With that said, I think Avocado is actually superior to base Gotenks by at least ten times because he takes less damage from the multiple Kamikaze Ghosts than Evil Boo did from a single one of Super Saiyan Gotenks'.

Goten would effortlessly win with Super Saiyan, though.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by xmysticgohanx » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:06 pm

Super Buu vs SSJ Gogeta; I have Super Buu stomping.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by rereboy » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:08 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Here's one:

1,000 low class Oozarus + 10 elite Oozarus + 2 super-elite Oozarus vs 1st form Freeza

This is more of a question of what your opinion is of how large scale ki battles work. Freeza was stated by Zarbon, in the Bardock special, and in Daizenshuu 7 to be afraid of the saiyans all uniting and rising up against him. If they had done so, and somehow organized themselves into one army, could they have actually killed him?

I say yes, assume they get the jump on him and he doesn't transform.
It really depends... If they manage to pull off continuous attacks in a relentless combination that really doesn't give Freeza any real time to react they might be able to kill him. Otherwise, Freeza is stronger and faster and can kill all the small fry with a few blasts and the stronger ones with little difficulty, not to mention that he can transform if he has a little time to do so.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Mystic Buu » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:19 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Super Buu vs SSJ Gogeta; I have Super Buu stomping.
SSJ Gogeta is much much much stronger than him.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by MDSTSSJ » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:32 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Super Buu vs SSJ Gogeta; I have Super Buu stomping.
SSJ Gogeta one shot Super Boo!
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:38 pm

Super Buu erases Gogeta in one blow. Then Gogeta goes SS2 and still loses. He's not many times stronger than Gotenks, guys. Stop overrating him.

Goten one-shots with SS. I don't think Abocado is all that much stronger than base Goten, and weaker than 100% Freeza. Base Gotenks was obviously screwing around; he even used Yamcha's move.

He proved Kaio's words to a degree by getting his ass kicked so easily by him, so he thought that Kaio must probably be correct.
If he doubted Kaio initially, why would what he just witnessed change anything? Beerus did nothing to prove he was above Gohan and Gotenks yet.
This is a valid interpretation, but not the only one.
I don't think the others make much sense.
He doesn't? He was powering up every time someone pissed him to beat them up.
When he powered up to fight Vegeta and Dabra, he was clearly far below his full power, and in the former case he got hurt for it.
It all happened too fast when Beerus attacked, and everyone realized quickly that they were no match for Beerus. Vegeta already knew he was weaker, yet he still fought. Would you expect Piccolo saying "stop he is much stronger than everyone!", and then everyone would sit back and let Beerus destroy the Earth?
Yes, I'd expect him to sense Beerus' massive power and tell 'em to back down. Or say that he can sense Beerus when Goku and Krillin say they can't. Or sense Godku.
No, the scene says that Goku needs Super Saiyan God to fight Beerus, and if he doesn't have godly ki, he can't be a Super Saiyan God.
Yes, he needs the godly ki. The scene says he can't fight Beerus without it no matter his battle power.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:17 pm

Kibito vs King Cold
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Mystic Buu » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:31 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kibito vs King Cold
King Cold wins.Kibito was about as strong as Base Adult Gohan and he was weaker than 7 years before.King Cold is weaker than Freeza,but he is stronger than all base saiyans.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:02 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Super Buu vs SSJ Gogeta
Anything Vegetto can do, Gogeta can do ALMOST as easily. Boo gets wiped out.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kibito vs King Cold
Cold might be moderately stronger, but Kibito's probably a better fighter and has at least a 50/50 shot at winning.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Gogeta8001 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:11 pm

- Super Buu stomps unless Gogeta goes SSJ3.

- Cold massacres Kibito.

SSJ3 Vegito VS Beerus
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by xmysticgohanx » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:07 pm

Mystic Buu wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kibito vs King Cold
King Cold wins.Kibito was about as strong as Base Adult Gohan and he was weaker than 7 years before.King Cold is weaker than Freeza,but he is stronger than all base saiyans.
Where do people get Kibito's feats from? I don't remember him doing anything.
Kaboom wrote:
xmysticgohanx wrote:Super Buu vs SSJ Gogeta
Anything Vegetto can do, Gogeta can do ALMOST as easily. Boo gets wiped out.
There's no way Gogeta is that much stronger than Gotenks to the point where he can beat Buu with just SSJ.
Gogeta8001 wrote: SSJ3 Vegito VS Beerus
Sadly, the extended scenes prove Beerus is stronger :cry: even though Goku's statement is a plot hole but I'm sure the scriptwriter forgot Goku couldn't sense Beerus.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:15 pm

Cold pulverizes Kibito. KIbito is moderately weaker than base teen Gohan, while Cold should be as strong or stronger than base BOG Goku, since it was stated in the Daizenshuu that he was only somewhat weaker than Freeza.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Kaboom » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:37 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:There's no way Gogeta is that much stronger than Gotenks to the point where he can beat Buu with just SSJ.
I respectfully disagree.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:55 pm

xmysticgohanx wrote:Super Buu vs SSJ Gogeta
Boo easily destroys Gogeta. Except if Gogeta goes Super Saiyan 3.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kibito vs King Cold
I'll go with Cold.
Gogeta8001 wrote:SSJ3 Vegito VS Beerus
Beerus does his job to Vegetto.
RandomGuy96 wrote:If he doubted Kaio initially, why would what he just witnessed change anything? Beerus did nothing to prove he was above Gohan and Gotenks yet.
He saw that Beerus was actually strong. Initially, he asked Beerus if going Super Saiyan 3 would be too much for him, meaning that he didn't believe Kaio's words. But after he saw his power, he started believing Kaio's words, which made Beerus sound like he would be stronger than SS3 Vegetto.
I don't think the others make much sense.
Then let's just agree that we disagree.
When he powered up to fight Vegeta and Dabra, he was clearly far below his full power, and in the former case he got hurt for it.
He just didn't go full power because there wasn't any need to do so. He was probably going all-out against Goku (since Goku concluded that he could have beaten him if he wanted to do so), and he didn't get angry at all, the opposite happened.
Yes, I'd expect him to sense Beerus' massive power and tell 'em to back down. Or say that he can sense Beerus when Goku and Krillin say they can't. Or sense Godku.
Well, he just didn't make a comment because it was already obvious that Beerus' power was huge from the fight.
Yes, he needs the godly ki. The scene says he can't fight Beerus without it no matter his battle power.
No, he says that raising his battle power won't make him a god, that he still isn't strong enough to fight Beerus, and that he isn't a god.
Kaboom wrote:I respectfully disagree.
How does Fusion work in your opinion?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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