Bardock TV Special vs Dragon Ball Minus

[TheUltimateVegito]

I haven't read Dragon Ball Minus... Dragon Ball Minus contradicts... the story...

This was an A+ post. How was your trip to Kanassa? Clearly, they have bestowed upon you psychic abilities.

Possibly. But I've seen enough information on the internet to have a basic grasp of the overall plot. Just like how I read the BOG script before seeing the movie.

Contradictions such as Frieza knowing SSJG and Goku being secretly sent to Planet Earth can't be overlooked. The Bardock TV special doesn't have such glaring plot holes present but rather expands the story behind Goku's origin.

This is just my opinion anyway. Like I said, I haven't read the manga so I may be wrong. But I've seen enough info to develop a conclusion on the subject.

[RandomGuy96]

The proof you are looking for is in the manga.

Where is it stated that the fighters can't combine their attacks? 'Cause I don't see that anywhere.

I could argue that Goku can survive in the vacuum of space because baby Broly did it in Movie #8 but I have no way to prove it and it would be a waste of everybody's time.

No, you can't, because Broly used a barrier. You could, however, argue that using just the original manga, where Goku survived in space.

Your belief that combined ki attacks can be effective isn't supported by anything we saw in the manga, only by non-canon anime only filler: Movie #1, Movie #10, and Plan To Destroy the Saiyans OVA.

One, there is no canon. Two, it's not stated anywhere that they can't, and three, the ability to do so is implied by Zarbon.

In anime only filler in a movie that's now non-canon and irrelevant. When did Freeza and Zarbon have this conversation in the original manga? If you are talking about what Zarbon told Vegeta it doesn't change the fact that we never actually saw Freeza tell Zarbon "I am afraid that the saiyans will gang up on me and kill me by combining their attacks".

Except Zarbon said that was the case. The fact that Zarbon and Vegeta even considered that a passable explanation indicates that it is possible.

That's not an answer to my question.

You can't answer a question with another question. I never stated that Videl and Spopovich were exactly as strong as the farmer. I asked what in the manga proved that they had to be above 10. Throughout this whole conversation, despite repeated requests from me, you still have yet to give any actual proof to back this up. If you can't do that, what is even the point of having this conversation?

Gohan in oozaru form was able to do it. And it's never stated or implied anywhere that this ability has anything to do with skill or strength.

He did? I'll have to recheck that. It's not like it matters though. It's a ki attack. If you don't know how to do ki attacks regularly (like Goku didn't before he was trained), why would you know how to do it in your beast-like form?

When those three Namekians (each with a PL of 3000) beat the shit out of Freeza's low-level goons, does that have anything to do with how physically strong they are?

No. That has something to do with how strong they are in terms of ki (that's what battle powers measure), but it says nothing about the strength of their physical bodies. Goku's physical body was strong enough to survive a pistol bullet (that Daizenshuu specifically credits his ability to do so to his body, not his ki) because he's an alien who's natural habitat is x10 Earth's gravity. To make a comparison, a bear and a human with the same level of ki wouldn't be equally strong or durable.

Goku trained with Kamisama long before the human heroes did. Just because Toriyama created a plot hole later in DBZ doesn't explain how can Roshi possibly be a better martial arts teacher than Kamisama in DB years before the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament.

And here's the main problem: there is no plot hole. There never was, as there was no explicitly established system for how much extra power a fighter should get from doing X training. It just doesn't fit with how you, a fan in no position of power within the franchise, think power levels should work.

It makes a lot more sense for kid Goku to be at 30% to 40% of Roshi's level before he was trained for the 21st Martial Arts Tournament just by looking at how Roshi trained him. Nothing that Goku did while training with Roshi he couldn't do on his own.
Piccolo fusing with Nail and going from weaker than Nappa to on par with 2nd form Freeza makes more sense than kid Goku going from a PL of 10 to Roshi's level.

It makes sense for a guy to go from barley superhuman to being able to nuke the moon with just a x3 jump? What?

One, he stated he got way stronger in that week on Kaio's... somehow, and was confident he'd help against Freeza before he even learned about fusion. So he'd be stronger than Nappa at the time. Two, it's fusion. Merging two beings is always, ALWAYS shown to give a ridiculous boost far in excess of what would happen if you just added their battle powers, except possibly for Buu's absorptions and what Abo and Kado did in the JSAT special.

[Appūru-sama]

Minus was crap. Toriyama had an opportunity (albeit totally unnecessary) to expound on the stellar Father of Goku which he himself worked into canon. But instead gave us a Superman ripoff.

What made FOG great was it showed that Bardock WASN'T special or different. He was just another low-level Saiyan grunt who happened by coincidence to birth the universes greatest hero. Through even more crazy coincidence, he psychically saw the potential of the son that he would never meet, which lead to him futilely attempting to defend his son and his people in a doomed standoff. The story is a stand alone epic, the art is unparalleled, and shows Bardock as well rounded, tragic, fleshed out quasi-antihero. And it's even more impressive that it was basically filler.

Minus took the character of Bardock and made him a pointless accessory to Goku's origin. The story had no stakes or spine. It only serves as a half-assed answer to a question no one asked, and also introducing Goku's mother which has always been at best a passing curiosity to fans. Not only was Bardock driven down to an anorexic (why is everyone so damn skinny) plot device, it sacrilegiously rewrites Goku's entry on Earth as a planned out escape a la Kal-el. I don't care if Minus shits on this deliciously ironic and long accepted fact, Goku was sent to Earth to kill everyone and instead became it's greatest defender period.

It also halfway suggests his softness, morals and integrity might be from his father and mother. Goku learned these things, again, because of dumb luck and coincidence. Because he was sent to Earth of all places. And smacking his head against a rock. And being raised as an Earthling, by Grandpa Gohan of all people. Nothing destined or fated or passed down about it. That's part of the charm of DB, that sometimes dumb luck and coincidence can change the course of history.

DB needs a restraining order from Toriyama, at least until he rereads his old work and bones up on the story and art style before attempting to shoehorn any more pointless characters and subplots.

[Mewzard]

I would say what Toriyama does is canon (his manga *obviously*, Jaco and Minus *also his manga, but I'm splitting it out to clarify*, and I'd also say the Jump Special and Battle of Gods, given his work on them, and DB Minus mentioning God *which the movie it was in mentioned Tarble*).

1. Toriyama never worked the special into canon, he took little bits of it and added in what he wants, that doesn't make the whole thing canon.

2. Goku's Saiyan origin was ALWAYS a fairly blatant Superman Origin homage. You'd have to literally have never seen one or the other to not be aware of this. It's likely one of the reasons people started asking Superman vs Goku in the first place.

3. Bardock in FOG was EXTREMELY special/different. He gained magic plot device psychic powers, his power growth was in the end what drove Freeza to kill off the Saiyans, and somehow, despite being a low class warrior who was severely injured and about to pass out, he took out almost a hundred of Freeza's soldiers casually before his final stand.

4. Given one of the most powerful things in an animal's instincts is to continue on their line, Bardock caring about his son enough to save him is actually quite believable, given Saiyans are very instinctual. His instincts are what made him question Freeza's motives and want to save his son in the first place.

5. Sacrilegious? Goku never even did such a deed, so Goku believing he was sent to Earth to do it is the important part. Its psychological impact as being told to Goku is more important than whether or not it was true.

6. Toriyama's art style changed, it happens.

7. No, it doesn't suggest that his good side came from his parents. Raditz was also their son, and he was an evil bastard. Goku hitting his head is, and will always be why he ended up the way he did. Jaco shows that both Grandpa Gohan and Goku are scuffed up, meaning Goku attacked him pretty much on sight.

8. He DID reread his manga relatively recently, he did so for Battle of Gods (by his own admission). That's likely why Jaco does have some set ups for future DB stuff (like the bits with Time Travel and gravity devices, establishing Bulma's intelligence at a young age, etc).

9. He pretty much implied with Jaco that it was likely going to be the last thing he drew. The man's getting old, and it will likely be his last hurrah (art-wise, he'll probably still do work writing for Toei's BoG sequels).

So yeah, to sum up:

People's art styles change (and Toriyama's likely done art-wise).
Goku's DBZ Origin was always a Superman one, this doesn't change that fact.
Only aspects of the Bardock TV Special (the ones drawn by Toriyama in the manga) are canon.
You're making some pretty broad assumptions about Minus while ignoring that Bardock in the TV Special was far more special himself.

[TheGmGoken]

Ugh...I hate this Superman ripoff crap. Supes ain't the first person with that type of back story damn it. Many other fictional stories have them even before Supes. Its getting fucking annoying to hear people claiming every story with this BG say Superman ripoff. When Supes didn't even invent it.

[penguintruth]

Minus was crap. Toriyama had an opportunity (albeit totally unnecessary) to expound on the stellar Father of Goku which he himself worked into canon. But instead gave us a Superman ripoff.

What made FOG great was it showed that Bardock WASN'T special or different. He was just another low-level Saiyan grunt who happened by coincidence to birth the universes greatest hero. Through even more crazy coincidence, he psychically saw the potential of the son that he would never meet, which lead to him futilely attempting to defend his son and his people in a doomed standoff. The story is a stand alone epic, the art is unparalleled, and shows Bardock as well rounded, tragic, fleshed out quasi-antihero. And it's even more impressive that it was basically filler.

Minus took the character of Bardock and made him a pointless accessory to Goku's origin. The story had no stakes or spine. It only serves as a half-assed answer to a question no one asked, and also introducing Goku's mother which has always been at best a passing curiosity to fans. Not only was Bardock driven down to an anorexic (why is everyone so damn skinny) plot device, it sacrilegiously rewrites Goku's entry on Earth as a planned out escape a la Kal-el. I don't care if Minus shits on this deliciously ironic and long accepted fact, Goku was sent to Earth to kill everyone and instead became it's greatest defender period.

It also halfway suggests his softness, morals and integrity might be from his father and mother. Goku learned these things, again, because of dumb luck and coincidence. Because he was sent to Earth of all places. And smacking his head against a rock. And being raised as an Earthling, by Grandpa Gohan of all people. Nothing destined or fated or passed down about it. That's part of the charm of DB, that sometimes dumb luck and coincidence can change the course of history.

DB needs a restraining order from Toriyama, at least until he rereads his old work and bones up on the story and art style before attempting to shoehorn any more pointless characters and subplots.

Precisely. Bardock doesn't need to be special. What made him interesting to begin with is that he failed. He didn't have a chance. He was nothing, a flea, to Freeza. And now every time more is told about Bardock, he comes off as being more special, more exceptional, a loving father, a great hero, etc.

Now, fine, Toriyama did the same basic thing with Gohan, inheriting his father's legacy as a hero (for a bit, anyway), but we saw Gohan grow into it. We were there with him every step of the way. This flashbacking to Bardock until he's just as great a hero as Goku makes it seem like Goku comes from a line of heroes and that that's just going to continue forever, like some great destined bloodline.

It makes DB into just another saga.

Goku's story is NEVER supposed to be Superman's story. Kal-El was sent to Earth out of love. Kakkarot was sent to Earth to kill everybody, and just happened to bump his head and become better natured. For want of nail.

[Rocketman]

Ugh...I hate this Superman ripoff crap. Supes ain't the first person with that type of back story damn it. Many other fictional stories have them even before Supes.

I'm curious, name some.

[penguintruth]

Well, Superman's back story was basically Space Moses.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ugh...I hate this Superman ripoff crap. Supes ain't the first person with that type of back story damn it. Many other fictional stories have them even before Supes. Its getting fucking annoying to hear people claiming every story with this BG say Superman ripoff. When Supes didn't even invent it.

Very curious, who had this kind of backstory before Superman?

[TheGmGoken]

Ugh...I hate this Superman ripoff crap. Supes ain't the first person with that type of back story damn it. Many other fictional stories have them even before Supes.

I'm curious, name some.

You want other examples like before Supes or other examples that are similar yet are called Supe rip off. Supes is easily just the most popular version. But long before 1937(?) there was stories of sending someone(kid, teen, baby, or Adult) away from destruction of a home. I guess you can say Supes was first from space but wasn't the first with the concept. The bible had stories about this now and some caveman art stories also had these.

[Rocketman]

Oh, you meant in the most general sense. Well, yeah, obviously.

[auspx]

The proof you are looking for is in the manga.

Where is it stated that the fighters can't combine their attacks? 'Cause I don't see that anywhere.

If it was possible AT would have shown it in the manga... and he didn't. You might as well be asking "where [in the manga] is it stated that Vegeta is not secretly in love with Goku?" No it must be a conspiracy. The Z-warriors could totally kill Freeza and Perfect Cell just by ganging up on them but they weren't smart enough to do it, right? I don't think so. AT showed it multiple times in the manga that a bunch of weak people will not be able to defeat a powerful person. Only a powerful hero will defeat a powerful villian... and we can look as far back as Goku's battle with Piccolo Daimao. Even when Goku and Piccolo teamed up against Raditz they were going to lose if Gohan didn't get angry and attack Raditz.

I could argue that Goku can survive in the vacuum of space because baby Broly did it in Movie #8 but I have no way to prove it and it would be a waste of everybody's time.

No, you can't, because Broly used a barrier. You could, however, argue that using just the original manga, where Goku survived in space

.

When he took those rabbit guys to the moon? That was a gag scene very early in DB. Not a very good example.

Your belief that combined ki attacks can be effective isn't supported by anything we saw in the manga, only by non-canon anime only filler: Movie #1, Movie #10, and Plan To Destroy the Saiyans OVA.

One, there is no canon. Two, it's not stated anywhere that they can't, and three, the ability to do so is implied by Zarbon.

Really?

In anime only filler in a movie that's now non-canon and irrelevant. When did Freeza and Zarbon have this conversation in the original manga? If you are talking about what Zarbon told Vegeta it doesn't change the fact that we never actually saw Freeza tell Zarbon "I am afraid that the saiyans will gang up on me and kill me by combining their attacks".

Except Zarbon said that was the case. The fact that Zarbon and Vegeta even considered that a passable explanation indicates that it is possible

.

It never made sense in the first place that Freeza would be afraid of the saiyans ganging up on him when he could:
-vaporize an entire crowd of them with a powerful ki blast
-easily destroy their planet (which is what he did)
-simply fly away into outer space where the saiyans can't follow him
It makes a lot more sense for Freeza to be afraid of a super saiyan, considering that Freeza was eventually defeated and later killed by one in the manga and in the anime.

That's not an answer to my question.

You can't answer a question with another question. I never stated that Videl and Spopovich were exactly as strong as the farmer. I asked what in the manga proved that they had to be above 10.

Their fight. No power levels were shown after the Freeza saga. We can only estimate that Videl and Majin Spopovich were at 10 or more by looking at what happened when they fought each other. Neither of them were "normal" human beings. The Farmer was a normal, hard working human adult man with a PL of 5. If you think that a PL of 10 or even more is too high for Videl and Majin Spopovich you are basically saying that what happened during their fight was nothing special.

Gohan in oozaru form was able to do it. And it's never stated or implied anywhere that this ability has anything to do with skill or strength.

He did? I'll have to recheck that. It's not like it matters though. It's a ki attack. If you don't know how to do ki attacks regularly (like Goku didn't before he was trained), why would you know how to do it in your beast-like form?

Yes, and Piccolo was horrified by what he saw when it happened. This was in the manga. The point is that if these guidebooks explain kid Goku's resistance to bullets and unnatural stregth as "well he is a saiyan, it has nothing to do with his PL", then why kid Goku in oozaru form is not able to do what saiyans can do in their oozaru form (i.e. shoot ki blasts from their mouths)? Why didn't we ever see him do that in DB? It has nothing to do with training. What training did Gohan have when he transformed into an oozaru for the first time and went on a rampage? Kid Gohan who is only 1/2 saiyan could shoot ki blasts from his mouth while in oozaru form, why couldn't kid Goku do the same thing? It's not fair to retcon it like that to explain kid Goku's resistance to bullets and unnatural stregth but then offer no explanation for why he can't do something that saiyans can do it their oozaru form.

Goku trained with Kamisama long before the human heroes did. Just because Toriyama created a plot hole later in DBZ doesn't explain how can Roshi possibly be a better martial arts teacher than Kamisama in DB years before the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament.

And here's the main problem: there is no plot hole. There never was, as there was no explicitly established system for how much extra power a fighter should get from doing X training. It just doesn't fit with how you, a fan in no position of power within the franchise, think power levels should work.

Then why are Goku's friends so surprised when they find out that Goku is training with Kamisama?
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v12/c165/13
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v12/c165/14
If being trained by God himself is no big deal and may not even result in a large power up their reaction makes no sense at all, and yes that is a plot hole.

It makes a lot more sense for kid Goku to be at 30% to 40% of Roshi's level before he was trained for the 21st Martial Arts Tournament just by looking at how Roshi trained him. Nothing that Goku did while training with Roshi he couldn't do on his own.

It makes sense for a guy to go from barley superhuman to being able to nuke the moon with just a x3 jump? What?

Yes it actually does and I will use the same explanation that these guidebooks use, Goku is a saiyan. (Goku wasn't able to "nuke the moon" even after he became as powerful as Roshi. Goku didn't know how to do a charged up kamehameha back then or how to control his own ki.)
See, this "kid Goku is saiyan therefore he can _____" even contradicts what these guidebooks say his PL was. Why would a 12 year old saiyan kid have a PL of only 10? That's much too low. Why not a 20? Or a 30? Or a 40? Or a 50? Why not, when a low-class saiyan adult (Raditz) had a power level of over 1200. Hell, a PL of 50 would be ridiculously low for a 12 year old saiyan kid. It's not even 5% of what Raditz had. If we take this "kid Goku is saiyan therefore he can _______" to its logical conclusion, then drinking that magical water in DB is not what made him stronger, he just got a zenkai. And Roshi's training was truly pointless since Goku trained on his own like this:
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v1/c3/3
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v1/c3/4
He was in a way "training" just by surviving in the wilderness, crushing giant rocks with his bare hands, hunting wolves, bears, and tigers while armed with nothing more than his fists, feet, and a magical staff. Eventually he would have started to hunt bigger beasts like dinosaurs and by doing all this his PL would continue to grow. What about other saiyan kids who were sent to other planets? They didn't have a martial arts master to train them, they "trained" just by surviving and being constantly in battle with the planet's natives.
And this is why kid Goku having a PL of only 10 by the beginning of DB when he is already a 12 year old makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He is a saiyan.

[RandomGuy96]

If it was possible AT would have shown it in the manga... and he didn't. You might as well be asking "where [in the manga] is it stated that Vegeta is not secretly in love with Goku?" No it must be a conspiracy. The Z-warriors could totally kill Freeza and Perfect Cell just by ganging up on them but they weren't smart enough to do it, right? I don't think so. AT showed it multiple times in the manga that a bunch of weak people will not be able to defeat a powerful person. Only a powerful hero will defeat a powerful villian... and we can look as far back as Goku's battle with Piccolo Daimao. Even when Goku and Piccolo teamed up against Raditz they were going to lose if Gohan didn't get angry and attack Raditz.

I'm still not seeing any evidence.

Of course it wouldn't work. They'd have to coordinate everyone and get the villain to stand perfectly still.

When he took those rabbit guys to the moon? That was a gag scene very early in DB. Not a very good example.

It still happened.

Really?

Yes.

It never made sense in the first place that Freeza would be afraid of the saiyans ganging up on him when he could:
-vaporize an entire crowd of them with a powerful ki blast
-easily destroy their planet (which is what he did)
-simply fly away into outer space where the saiyans can't follow him
It makes a lot more sense for Freeza to be afraid of a super saiyan, considering that Freeza was eventually defeated and later killed by one in the manga and in the anime.

That still doesn't change the fact that this was bought as an explanation by Zarbon and Vegeta.

Their fight. No power levels were shown after the Freeza saga. We can only estimate that Videl and Majin Spopovich were at 10 or more by looking at what happened when they fought each other. Neither of them were "normal" human beings. The Farmer was a normal, hard working human adult man with a PL of 5. If you think that a PL of 10 or even more is too high for Videl and Majin Spopovich you are basically saying that what happened during their fight was nothing special.

Sigh. You don't how proof works do you? WHAT shows they were above 10? You just say "their fight". What in their fight shows that they have to be 10? Or that 10 would even be the level you think it is?

Where did I state they had to be 5? They can be stronger than the farmer and still below 10.

Yes, and Piccolo was horrified by what he saw when it happened. This was in the manga. The point is that if these guidebooks explain kid Goku's resistance to bullets and unnatural stregth as "well he is a saiyan, it has nothing to do with his PL", then why kid Goku in oozaru form is not able to do what saiyans can do in their oozaru form (i.e. shoot ki blasts from their mouths)? Why didn't we ever see him do that in DB? It has nothing to do with training. What training did Gohan have when he transformed into an oozaru for the first time and went on a rampage? Kid Gohan who is only 1/2 saiyan could shoot ki blasts from his mouth while in oozaru form, why couldn't kid Goku do the same thing?

Same reason that BOZ Goku could not do what other saiyans could do in their normal forms (i.e. shoot ki blasts from his hands). His ability to turn into an Oozaru is not tied at all to his ability to shoot ki blasts. I have no idea where you're trying to go with this.

Then why are Goku's friends so surprised when they find out that Goku is training with Kamisama?
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v12/c165/13
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v12/c165/14
If being trained by God himself is no big deal and may not even result in a large power up their reaction makes no sense at all, and yes that is a plot hole.

No, it's not. It is a big deal, it just isn't guaranteed to add X amount of points to someone's power level. There is no plot hole, there's just the manga not fitting with how you think power levels should work.

Yes it actually does and I will use the same explanation that these guidebooks use, Goku is a saiyan. (Goku wasn't able to "nuke the moon" even after he became as powerful as Roshi. Goku didn't know how to do a charged up kamehameha back then or how to control his own ki.)

He could clearly control his own ki, as evidenced by his ability do a Kamehameha at all.

See, this "kid Goku is saiyan therefore he can _____" even contradicts what these guidebooks say his PL was. Why would a 12 year old saiyan kid have a PL of only 10? That's much too low. Why not a 20? Or a 30? Or a 40? Or a 50? Why not, when a low-class saiyan adult (Raditz) had a power level of over 1200. Hell, a PL of 50 would be ridiculously low for a 12 year old saiyan kid. It's not even 5% of what Raditz had.

The same reason Goku was so pitifully weak compared to Raditz as an adult. His saiyan body is durable enough to let him tank bullets, just like a bear is strong enough to do things that a human can't. But he wasn't actually doing any ki training at the time, just derping around in the forests.

It's not even 5% of what Raditz had. If we take this "kid Goku is saiyan therefore he can _______" to its logical conclusion, then drinking that magical water in DB is not what made him stronger, he just got a zenkai.

That actually is possible, if the water really was poison. In fact, Krillin specifically brings up zenkais as the reason Goku was always ahead in their original adventures.

And Roshi's training was truly pointless since Goku trained on his own like this

Obviously it wasn't pointless, as he got tremendously stronger in any case.

What about other saiyan kids who were sent to other planets? They didn't have a martial arts master to train them, they "trained" just by surviving and being constantly in battle with the planet's natives.

What about other saiyan kids? The saiyans aren't supposed to just send babies on their own to hostile worlds, as seen in Minus. Presuambly they'd receive some sort of training first.

And this is why kid Goku having a PL of only 10 by the beginning of DB when he is already a 12 year old makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. He is a saiyan.

A saiyan who is only as fast as an Olympic sprinter, whereas adult saiyans could go at mach speeds. A saiyan who can still be killed with a single shotgun blast, whereas adult saiyans could tank moon busters. A saiyan who was massively weaker than Raditz even after all of his super-special training and potential unlocks.

[auspx]

A saiyan who can still be killed with a single shotgun blast,

Can you show any evidence of this in the manga?

He could clearly control his own ki, as evidenced by his ability do a Kamehameha at all.

No. He didn't learn how to control his ki until he was trained by Kamisama. And he didn't know how to do a charged up kamehameha probably until the 23rd Tournament/beginning of DBZ. Kid Goku would not be able to blow up the moon after Roshi's training even if he wanted to.
http://v2012.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/v12/c165/15

[Darknat]

2 things I have seen in previous posts:

Goku not being able to do a blast in Oozaru is just because that concept was added later in the series. That a character doesn't do something does not mean he can't do it. Also, he is actually shown doing it in a crossover in Dr. Slump which was animated after being stablished that was an ability saiyans have in oozaru form.

Vegeta being very low class compared to other Freeza soldiers is not true. He's actually the strongest of them all while in Oozaru which he can also control. So that means he's second to Freeza if we count his Oozaru form.

About the changes on Minus, I actually don't have any problem with those. I like the TV Special, and I like Minus. They are at conflict with each other, but that also happened with the Trunks Special, with who killed Kargo, with some censoring DBZ had here and there, with the part where Piccolo shields or not shields Goku against Freeza, how Videl discovers that Gohan is the Great Saiyaman, how Goku meets Ten Shin Han.... Anime and manga have always had differences. I like seeing new Saiyans, new concepts for the structure of the galaxy with the patrolmen, a young Raditz, the mother of Goku. All of this is new. Retcons after a long time since a series been running or ended are normal. There is new information that at the time didn't exist or wasn't clear (Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God).

Maybe, my only problem with Minus would be how Freeza didn't detect the space pod being launched but the Galactic Patrol did.

[goku the krump dancer]

The only thing I'm curious about is if Raditz was believing a lie this entire time. Or is it just a plot hole or a retcon.

[Attitudefan]

Vegeta being very low class compared to other Freeza soldiers is not true. He's actually the strongest of them all while in Oozaru which he can also control. So that means he's second to Freeza if we count his Oozaru form.

Maybe in power but he becomes a huge target and is very slow. He would be decimated, tail and all, before he even blinked by someone like Burter. Remember, Vegeta couldn't detect the speed of the Ginyus. Vegeta could, at a fair distance, try to blow everyone up with one mouth blast.

DB Minus seems very un-Dragonball like. It seems kind of typical cliche American super hero story telling or Japanese story-telling in how the characters interact with each other. It just seems so typical....

What made Dragonball special was that is wasn't typical and had wild characters, wild (but believable) stories. Dragonball was fun, mystical, and spectacular! Something, I feel, Dragonball Minus is lacking in its story telling!

Compare this to the first chapter of Dragonball or the first chapter of Z. No chance does Minus have to be able to stand up to those parts (and the Pilaf arc is weak in comparison to the rest of the series).

[Rocketman]

Maybe in power but he becomes a huge target and is very slow.

Pretty sure Goku says Vegeta doesn't get any slower as Big Monkey.

[Kaboom]

I don't see why anyone wants or needs to pit the two works against each other in the first place.

All that's going on is that we now have two alternate versions of a character's backstory. One slightly grim and dramatic version originally made by Toei, and one more light and fluff-ish one made years later by Toriyama. There's no good reason to fuss over who made which version, or which one should supersede the other and be considered more "canon." Just enjoy each one for what it is, prefer one over the other if you really want, and leave it at that.

We've had two alternate versions of Trunks' history for years, but I don't see anyone arguing over which version of THAT is better or more worthwhile. Likewise, all that needs to be said or known about the Bardock special and Minus is, "THIS is Bardock's story as originally told by Toei, and THIS is Toriyama's later take on it."

[thatdbzguy]

Although I didn't like Minus, you have to admit that Bardock was treated more as a special person in FOG. Gained magical powers, more powerful than most Saiyans of his class, etc.