Is Super Saiyan God the next "canonical" SSj4?

[Hitiro]

Seriously true. GT has tons of flaws considering it only has 64 episodes. It is understandable for DBZ because it has almost 5 times the amount of episodes.

Which is exactly the kind of answer, another bad excuse like people always do when defending DBZ, I expected from you and makes the discussion pointless since you will never accept that is is not like this and that GT has the right to have flaws as much as DBZ does.

The flaws in DBZ are minor in comparison to GT's ones. The flaws in the first episode of GT alone destroy any semblance of a story as those gaping flaws, if they were fixed, would attribute to the GT story never happening in the first place.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What exactly is "SSJ4 Goku beyond SSJ4 limits"? As far as I'm aware Goku maintained the same level all the way through GT. He never got stronger than he already was.

That's SS4 Goku with SS2 Gohan's, SS Goten's, and SS Trunks' power. SS4 Goku was weaker than Yi Xing Long, but with their power, he surpassed him.

Is it stated he got all the power from SSJG in his base? Or did he absorb just some of it? That is I got from what was said in the movie. But if he absorbed the whole power into his base form then SSJ4 wouldn't be needed in GT as Base Goku would wipe the floor with everyone, lol.

Beerus said that through their fight, Goku absorbed the power of the SSGod form into his body, which is why his power didn't fall significantly when he reverted from the form. Toriyama confirmed that Goku doesn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God anymore (but as we saw in the movie, he can still transform on his own), because he has already absorbed the form's power. So, God Base Goku is as strong as or slightly weaker than God SS Goku, and God SS Goku is slightly weaker than SSGod Goku.

Seems weird to lose ki. Especially when that never happens in the story. And how are they going to get around not using SSJG in GT when there are enough people to initiate the form in GT? How are they going to explain that the form just vanishes, lol.

Well, where is Ultimate Gohan in GT?
My guess is that Ultimate was lost due to the lack of training (we know that Gohan trained before GT, but we don't know if he trained before the 28th TB), and Super Saiyan God was lost because Goku turned into a child (it wouldn't be the first side effect of this after all).

Well.. That doesn't really change the fact that they can re-apply the form in GT. In such a case wouldn't it be wise considering it outranks the SSJ4 form?

It would also be wise for Goten & Trunks to use Fusion against Super #17 and Super Yi Xing Long.

That would explain why base GT Goku defeated Cell and Freeza without the need to transform into SSj.

If base GT Goku has the God power, then transforming into a Super Saiyan shouldn't give him a big boost.

IMO, it doesn't make sense for base Goku to kick Freeza's & Cell's asses like that, especially when they are even stronger than they were in DBZ. Base Goku couldn't surpass Freeza after 16 years of hard training (BoG), he was implied to be in around the same level as he was in Boo arc during the 28th TB, and he was stated to have reached his limits years before that... but he suddenly surpasses Cell in base (aka he gets over a hundred times stronger?!) after 5 years? So, I just take the fight metaphorically in the sense that Goku (in general, not in base) has outclassed his old enemies that much after so many years.

[Hitiro]

If base GT Goku has the God power, then transforming into a Super Saiyan shouldn't give him a big boost.

IMO, it doesn't make sense for base Goku to kick Freeza's & Cell's asses like that, especially when they are even stronger than they were in DBZ. Base Goku couldn't surpass Freeza after 16 years of hard training (BoG), he was implied to be in around the same level as he was in Boo arc during the 28th TB, and he was stated to have reached his limits years before that... but he suddenly surpasses Cell in base (aka he gets over a hundred times stronger?!) after 5 years? So, I just take the fight metaphorically in the sense that Goku (in general, not in base) has outclassed his old enemies that much after so many years.

Thought it was implied throughout GT that Base Goku <= SSJ3 Goku EoZ due to training with Oob all those years? Otherwise how could Base Goku put up a fight against Rildo who, by his own statement, was stronger then Majin Boo (Not clear which one, but still.)

[Low Tone G]

I assume there are two methods for GT and BoG to be in the same continuity.

The first: Goku's godly power faded away with time, and the ritual couldn't be perfomred once again on the same person. So Goku contiuned to train very hard to compensate his Godly lost. As untill the GT has surpassed his SSJ3 limits just in base, and effortlessly defeated Frieza and Cell, but needed to transfom into SSJ against Rildo who was sronger than Buu (possibly Kid Buu, but it's not sure that Gohan Buu also).

Or as someone mentioned Goku Godly power was lost right when he was transformed into a child. And I guess Adult Base Goku was way stronger than his SSJ4 self later in the Baby saga. But Goku got exhausted against Uub when they have their fight right before Goku was turned into a child, so with Godly power within him Uub couldn't even have made him to break sweat even after years of training Uub couldn't reach God Goku's level, as we know SSJ God Goku was above SSJ Vegetto level(at least), and SSJ4 Goku was a wekaer a bit than SSJ Vegetto, but way stronger than Uub(even Majuub).

So my rakingas are like this: GT Base Kid Goku < Uub = GT Base Adult Goku = SSJ3 Majin Buu saga Goku < BOG SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Kid Goku < SSJ2 Kid Goku < SSJ3 Kid Goku with tail < Majuub < SSJ4 Goku </= SSJ Vegetto < SSJ4 Goku beyond limits </= SSJ2 Vegetto < SSJ3 Vegetto < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis < Omega Shenron < SSJ4 Gogeta

Or ..... < SSJ4 Gogeta < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis.

[KentalSSJ6]

I assume there are two methods for GT and BoG to be in the same continuity.

The first: Goku's godly power faded away with time, and the ritual couldn't be perfomred once again on the same person. So Goku contiuned to train very hard to compensate his Godly lost. As untill the GT has surpassed his SSJ3 limits just in base, and effortlessly defeated Freeza and Cell, but needed to transfom into SSJ against Rildo who was sronger than Buu (possibly Kid Buu, but it's not sure that Gohan Buu also).

Or as someone mentioned Goku Godly power was lost right when he was transformed into a child. And I guess Adult Base Goku was way stronger than his SSJ4 self later in the Baby saga. But Goku got exhausted against Uub when they have their fight right before Goku was turned into a child, so with Godly power within him Uub couldn't even have made him to break sweat even after years of training Uub couldn't reach God Goku's level, as we know SSJ God Goku was above SSJ Vegetto level(at least), and SSJ4 Goku was a wekaer a bit than SSJ Vegetto, but way stronger than Uub(even Majuub).

So my rakingas are like this: GT Base Kid Goku < Uub = GT Base Adult Goku = SSJ3 Majin Buu saga Goku < BOG SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Kid Goku < SSJ2 Kid Goku < SSJ3 Kid Goku with tail < Majuub < SSJ4 Goku </= SSJ Vegetto < SSJ4 Goku beyond limits </= SSJ2 Vegetto < SSJ3 Vegetto < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis < Omega Shenron < SSJ4 Gogeta



Or ..... < SSJ4 Gogeta < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis.

Or...the reddish fur of Goku's SSJ4 is a result from SSJG's power...?

[Hellspawn28]

I would put SSjG Goku>SSj3 Vegito>SSj4 Goku>SSj Vegito. The power of fusion in my opinion would be stronger then a single person as a SSj level. Just like how I would put SSj4 Gogeta over hypothetically SSj5 GT Goku.

[Low Tone G]

I would put SSjG Goku>SSj3 Vegito>SSj4 Goku>SSj Vegito. The power of fusion in my opinion would be stronger then a single person as a SSj level. Just like how I would put SSj4 Gogeta over hypothetically SSj5 GT Goku.

I can agree with this, Goku beyond his limits in SSJ4 was stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

Or...the reddish fur of Goku's SSJ4 is a result from SSJG's power...?

That doesn't explain why SSJ Vegeta's fur is also reddish. Only in that case if Vegeta also received that God Power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thought it was implied throughout GT that Base Goku <= SSJ3 Goku EoZ due to training with Oob all those years? Otherwise how could Base Goku put up a fight against Rildo who, by his own statement, was stronger then Majin Boo (Not clear which one, but still.)

That's just Toei's logic in fights, Goku isn't necessarily so strong. Judging from other filler & movie fights, Toei seems to believe that even with a huge gap, two fighters can have a fight. Examples: base Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta vs #13, #14, and #15 (SS level), base Goku vs Paikuhan (above SS Goku level), SS2 Goku vs Pure Boo, SS3 Goku vs Hildegarn, Goku vs Oob, base Gohan vs SS Goten in GT, Vegeta vs Gohan & Goten in GT.

So, Goku could have been having an even fight with Rild, but with Rild being many times stronger than him in reality. That's how I see it in this case at least, because it makes zero sense for Goku to be that strong. To sum up, I don't take the fights of the anime too seriously when judging who is stronger than who, because evidently, it uses a different logic than that on the manga.

[Flame Dragon]

Thought it was implied throughout GT that Base Goku <= SSJ3 Goku EoZ due to training with Oob all those years? Otherwise how could Base Goku put up a fight against Rildo who, by his own statement, was stronger then Majin Boo (Not clear which one, but still.)

That's just Toei's logic in fights, Goku isn't necessarily so strong. Judging from other filler & movie fights, Toei seems to believe that even with a huge gap, two fighters can have a fight. Examples: base Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta vs #13, #14, and #15 (SS level), base Goku vs Paikuhan (above SS Goku level), SS2 Goku vs Pure Boo, SS3 Goku vs Hildegarn, Goku vs Oob, base Gohan vs SS Goten in GT, Vegeta vs Gohan & Goten in GT.

So, Goku could have been having an even fight with Rild, but with Rild being many times stronger than him in reality. That's how I see it in this case at least, because it makes zero sense for Goku to be that strong. To sum up, I don't take the fights of the anime too seriously when judging who is stronger than who, because evidently, it uses a different logic than that on the manga.

Toei doesn't think one shot fights are entertaining evidently.

[KentalSSJ6]

Thought it was implied throughout GT that Base Goku <= SSJ3 Goku EoZ due to training with Oob all those years? Otherwise how could Base Goku put up a fight against Rildo who, by his own statement, was stronger then Majin Boo (Not clear which one, but still.)

That's just Toei's logic in fights, Goku isn't necessarily so strong. Judging from other filler & movie fights, Toei seems to believe that even with a huge gap, two fighters can have a fight. Examples: base Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta vs #13, #14, and #15 (SS level), base Goku vs Paikuhan (above SS Goku level), SS2 Goku vs Pure Boo, SS3 Goku vs Hildegarn, Goku vs Oob, base Gohan vs SS Goten in GT, Vegeta vs Gohan & Goten in GT.

So, Goku could have been having an even fight with Rild, but with Rild being many times stronger than him in reality. That's how I see it in this case at least, because it makes zero sense for Goku to be that strong. To sum up, I don't take the fights of the anime too seriously when judging who is stronger than who, because evidently, it uses a different logic than that on the manga.

Toei doesn't think one shot fights are entertaining evidently.

Movie 12's Gohan and Freeza say hi.

[Hitiro]

Movie 12's Gohan and Freeza say hi.

GT Vegeta and Nappa say hi back.

[Basaku]

I assume there are two methods for GT and BoG to be in the same continuity.

The first: Goku's godly power faded away with time, and the ritual couldn't be perfomred once again on the same person. So Goku contiuned to train very hard to compensate his Godly lost. As untill the GT has surpassed his SSJ3 limits just in base, and effortlessly defeated Freeza and Cell, but needed to transfom into SSJ against Rildo who was sronger than Buu (possibly Kid Buu, but it's not sure that Gohan Buu also).

Or as someone mentioned Goku Godly power was lost right when he was transformed into a child. And I guess Adult Base Goku was way stronger than his SSJ4 self later in the Baby saga. But Goku got exhausted against Uub when they have their fight right before Goku was turned into a child, so with Godly power within him Uub couldn't even have made him to break sweat even after years of training Uub couldn't reach God Goku's level, as we know SSJ God Goku was above SSJ Vegetto level(at least), and SSJ4 Goku was a wekaer a bit than SSJ Vegetto, but way stronger than Uub(even Majuub).

So my rakingas are like this: GT Base Kid Goku < Uub = GT Base Adult Goku = SSJ3 Majin Buu saga Goku < BOG SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Kid Goku < SSJ2 Kid Goku < SSJ3 Kid Goku with tail < Majuub < SSJ4 Goku </= SSJ Vegetto < SSJ4 Goku beyond limits </= SSJ2 Vegetto < SSJ3 Vegetto < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis < Omega Shenron < SSJ4 Gogeta

Or ..... < SSJ4 Gogeta < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis.

These are nice explanations, but don't work without new movie/special/episode showing the gang activetly trying to use SSJG again and failing. They can't "just know" it won't work, that's the biggest problem of introducing something like this in a timeframe before GT. Logically, attempting SSJG in GT should've been the first thing they did in Baby saga, regardless if it failed and someone, like one of the Kais, said "ohh noes you can't use this trick twice, find some other power up, maybe some SSJ4 yay!".

For the longest time I've been in the "it's canon no matter how much people may dislike it and how many little errors are there" camp in regards to GT, but things like SSJG really make it harder and harder consider it part of the 'official story'. It's becoming a storytelling mess when you have to work-in EOZ, BOG and GT into the same timeline as they currently are.

And I think Toei knows it, personally I see the '12 universes' thing as the first step to cover their backs when they want to make something not-canon/part of 'official story' or introduce new stuff that directly conflicts with something else. I would not be surprised to see one day "GT happened in unverse 3, now watch the new series Z-2 that follows EOZ in the main Universe 7 yay!".

[TheDevilsCorpse]

And I think Toei knows it, personally I see the '12 universes' thing as the first step to cover their backs when they want to make something not-canon/part of 'official story' or introduce new stuff that directly conflicts with something else. I would not be surprised to see one day "GT happened in unverse 3, now watch the new series Z-2 that follows EOZ in the main Universe 7 yay!".

It doesn't work like that. All adventures with Goku and Dragon Ball happen in Universe 7; the alternate universes are not alternate timelines.

[Low Tone G]

I assume there are two methods for GT and BoG to be in the same continuity.

The first: Goku's godly power faded away with time, and the ritual couldn't be perfomred once again on the same person. So Goku contiuned to train very hard to compensate his Godly lost. As untill the GT has surpassed his SSJ3 limits just in base, and effortlessly defeated Freeza and Cell, but needed to transfom into SSJ against Rildo who was sronger than Buu (possibly Kid Buu, but it's not sure that Gohan Buu also).

Or as someone mentioned Goku Godly power was lost right when he was transformed into a child. And I guess Adult Base Goku was way stronger than his SSJ4 self later in the Baby saga. But Goku got exhausted against Uub when they have their fight right before Goku was turned into a child, so with Godly power within him Uub couldn't even have made him to break sweat even after years of training Uub couldn't reach God Goku's level, as we know SSJ God Goku was above SSJ Vegetto level(at least), and SSJ4 Goku was a wekaer a bit than SSJ Vegetto, but way stronger than Uub(even Majuub).

So my rakingas are like this: GT Base Kid Goku < Uub = GT Base Adult Goku = SSJ3 Majin Buu saga Goku < BOG SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Kid Goku < SSJ2 Kid Goku < SSJ3 Kid Goku with tail < Majuub < SSJ4 Goku </= SSJ Vegetto < SSJ4 Goku beyond limits </= SSJ2 Vegetto < SSJ3 Vegetto < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis < Omega Shenron < SSJ4 Gogeta

Or ..... < SSJ4 Gogeta < SSJ God Goku < Beerus < Whis.

These are nice explanations, but don't work without new movie/special/episode showing the gang activetly trying to use SSJG again and failing. They can't "just know" it won't work, that's the biggest problem of introducing something like this in a timeframe before GT. Logically, attempting SSJG in GT should've been the first thing they did in Baby saga, regardless if it failed and someone, like one of the Kais, said "ohh noes you can't use this trick twice, find some other power up, maybe some SSJ4 yay!".

For the longest time I've been in the "it's canon no matter how much people may dislike it and how many little errors are there" camp in regards to GT, but things like SSJG really make it harder and harder consider it part of the 'official story'. It's becoming a storytelling mess when you have to work-in EOZ, BOG and GT into the same timeline as they currently are.

And I think Toei knows it, personally I see the '12 universes' thing as the first step to cover their backs when they want to make something not-canon/part of 'official story' or introduce new stuff that directly conflicts with something else. I would not be surprised to see one day "GT happened in unverse 3, now watch the new series Z-2 that follows EOZ in the main Universe 7 yay!".

These are just assumptions... As fas as I'm concerned I don't like the GT as a whole only the last part of it, the Shadow Dragon saga, so for me it can run like a side-story of Dragon Ball which has no place in the original timeline. The very first news of BOG told us that the movie would intend to brigde the gap between Z and GT, but anything like that did not happen as the gap became much bigger than before. I assume it was only Toei's intention to link the two stories even better, but Akira Toriyama ingnored totally what they wanted. He ignored the first character design of Beerus and his personality also, and the SSj God's design also.

The Toei's story-telling it's significantly appart than of Toriyama's. Toei tends to create more heroical stories and less funny, but Toriyama tends to try surprise us(doesn't matter he manage or not).

[Basaku]

It doesn't work like that. All adventures with Goku and Dragon Ball happen in Universe 7; the alternate universes are not alternate timelines.

When/where is such distinction made?

These are just assumptions...

Of course, it's just my opinion that "12 universes" thing was nothing more than a blatant attempt to cover up for future retcons/canon changes Toei may want to make regarding any part of DB franchise. I may be just too cynical and in reality they were only thinking about "deep plot and 12 Gods" but yeah... Smelled like covering up 'just in case' to me

[Low Tone G]

These are just assumptions...
Of course, it's just my opinion that "12 universes" thing was nothing more than a blatant attempt to cover up for future retcons/canon changes Toei may want to make regarding any part of DB franchise. I may be just too cynical and in reality they were only thinking about "deep plot and 12 Gods" but yeah... Smelled like covering up 'just in case' to me

May be, or may be not, because the plot was mostly created by AT, it's not sure that was Toei's idea to create addtional 11 universes, many changes has been made by Toriyama on the original story of Toei related to this movie. Could have also happened that the plus universes idea was of Toriyama's, as he decided to have Beerus the winner instead of God Goku, not me mention that Toei wanted Beerus to be very evil, who infects people with cruelty.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

When/where is such distinction made?

Within the sections covering said material for the Chozenshu.

[Basaku]

When/where is such distinction made?

Within the sections covering said material for the Chozenshu.

So alternate timelines within alternate universes? What a mess lol, Toei needs to decide

PS: Is your avatar made of different pictures or you just changed it? Cause I can't upload mine