Goku's Feats

[KentalSSJ6]

If you take into account Movie 6's bits where we see how Goku and Cooler move in Shunkan Ido, wouldn't that technically mean Goku is faster than light? Because when we see him Shunkan Ido to intercept Cooler, all he's doing is flying/running into Cooler's direction and everything is slowed down. So isn't technically Goku moving faster than light to reach the places he moves to with Shunkan Ido?

[White Oni]

If you take into account Movie 6's bits where we see how Goku and Cooler move in Shunkan Ido, wouldn't that technically mean Goku is faster than light? Because when we see him Shunkan Ido to intercept Cooler, all he's doing is flying/running into Cooler's direction and everything is slowed down. So isn't technically Goku moving faster than light to reach the places he moves to with Shunkan Ido?

It's really important we distinguise Combat speed from running speed/ Traveling speed.

We can be sure that their combat is far FTL, but I'm really not sure about travel speed. (the conversation vegeta and Goku have, while Super buu travels towards them comes to mind.)

However, I think new evidence, thanks to BoG, supports FTL travel speed as well.

Note: Beers and Whis travel to earth, and Whis says it'll be about an anime episode's length of time to get there. This is stated after it being established that earth is several galaxies length away from their Location. To travel across 1 galaxy, let alone several, in a matter of 20-30 minutes is INSANE.

let's put this into perspective.

It would take 100,000 YEARS for Light to travel from one end of the milky way galaxy to the other.

Assuming they were only 2 galaxies away, that means Bills and whis traveled at speeds around 3,506,400,000 times FASTER than Light... Holy... Fuck...

[KentalSSJ6]

How could it be several galaxies length in distance when there is only 4 in the manga? North, South, East, and West?

[White Oni]

How could it be several galaxies length in distance when there is only 4 in the manga? North, South, East, and West?

BoG broke that assumption.

remember, Bills/whis (can't remember) says something to the effect of "They're from one of the galaxies watched over by the kaios." Implying there were more than 4.

besides, even if there were only 4, there could still be a 1/2/3 galaxy length between them.

[KentalSSJ6]

How could it be several galaxies length in distance when there is only 4 in the manga? North, South, East, and West?

BoG broke that assumption.

remember, Bills/whis (can't remember) says something to the effect of "They're from one of the galaxies watched over by the kaios." Implying there were more than 4.

besides, even if there were only 4, there could still be a 1/2/3 galaxy length between them.

FYI this is how the universe is shaped in Dragonball

[White Oni]

Yeah, I've seen that before.

Sorry if I'm asking an obvious question, but is anything from those pics in conflict with what I've said? If so, are those from the guide books or from AT himself?

[KentalSSJ6]

Yeah, I've seen that before.

Sorry if I'm asking an obvious question, but is anything from those pics in conflict with what I've said? If so, are those from the guide books or from AT himself?

First image is from Daizenshuu 4, second is from Super Exciting Guides. Third is just a 3d rendition of the first 2 I think.

[White Oni]

Ok, still not sure if they contradict what I'm saying or how, if so.

But I'd say BoG takes precedence over the guides, which have been clearly wrong before.(patara fusion being a multiplication between goku and vegeta's power lol)

[The Monkey King]

For speed he's waaaay faster than Tao Pai Pai, who threw a pillar 2,300km at hypersonic speeds: (this also doubles as a strength feat)

Spoiler:

Chapter: 85, P12.7
Context: before Tao Pai Pai takes off for the Karin Holy Land
Tao Pai Pai: “It’s 2,300 kilometers northeast, huh?...Well then, I’ll be back in about 30 minutes.”
Note: So in other words, Tao Pai Pai says he can throw a pillar 2,300 kilometers, jump on it and ride it all the way there, beat Goku, then come all the way back in about 30 minutes.

Another speed feat is that he was able to react to Cell's KHH which travelled into space between Shukan Ido's lag time:

Spoiler:

It reached space (10,000km) inbetween Goku's instant transmission lag time which is virtually instant.
If the lag time of Goku's IT is only 0.02 seconds that would make Cell's KHH FTL.
(If it were say 0.5 that would make the KHH mach 58,000.

Goku was already lifting and throwing 1 ton cars in the first chapter:

Spoiler:

Vehicles that appeared in DragonBall which exist in reality.
The Renault 5 Turbo
A small sports car manufactured by Renault, a French automobile maker active as an F1 engine supplier. It’s loaded with a powerful, turbo-equipped engine.
The Renault 5 Turbo

http://web.archive.org/web/201111040713 ... hines#link
IRL it weighs 1 ton, this is the car Goku threw in chapter 1.

Curb weight: 970 kg (2,138 lb)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_5_Turbo

Goku with a PL of 100 is able to bust 12 inch thick steel walls:

Spoiler:

Ōzaru: 100
With his battle power becoming ten times its usual, he can even pulverize a 30 cm-thick steel wall. He now has the destructive power of a battleship’s main gun.

As a kid he was stronger than #8 who punched a RRA commander across a mountain range:

Spoiler:

Stronger than Freeza who could hold back/overpower attacks with enough force to destroy entire planets:

Spoiler:

What Goku has to say about his own durability:

Spoiler:

The list goes on.

[White Oni]

To elborate on what I think the poster above me was implying when he said "Speed doubles as a strength measurement."(not an exact quote.)

The speed of mass traveling will, in turn, have HUGE relevance to the amount of force it will have on impact.

D.C. universe understands this and thus made one of its universe's strongest attack the "infinite mass punch". That is, a punch executed at Light speed (Not even FTL here)

This punch, in D.C., is INSANE.

Something to think about, when you consider that every single punch thrown by someone like Goku should be flying at FAR faster than light speed.

To put it another way, the IMP is the flashes ULTIMATE punch and one of their greatest weapons. HOWEVER, to them, it's too risky for 2 reasons.
1) It requires you have the time to build up moment to reach Light speed.
2) They reach light speed through flight, so it can be easy to miss, if they're not careful.

HOWEVER, DBZ combat speed, NOT flight speed, is constantly FAR above light speed and extremely precise.

So not only would someone like Goku being moving at speeds so fast that the likes of the flash wouldn't even be able to comprehend, let along combat in, they'd be receiving THOUSANDS of deadly martial arts blows, STRONGER force than the IMP to vital areas, before they could even throw a punch that would undeniably be dodged without effort.



Sure, Prime and Thought Robot Supes would rip GOku apart, but any other incarnation gets completely and utterly destroyed, and with little effort on Goku's part.

[The Monkey King]

The thing is that whether or not DBZ characters are FTL or not is very much up to your personal opinion regarding their speed.

[Cetra]

If you take into account Movie 6's bits where we see how Goku and Cooler move in Shunkan Ido, wouldn't that technically mean Goku is faster than light? Because when we see him Shunkan Ido to intercept Cooler, all he's doing is flying/running into Cooler's direction and everything is slowed down. So isn't technically Goku moving faster than light to reach the places he moves to with Shunkan Ido?

Goku shouldn't move with his instant Transmission at all because it is a Teleportation and teleportation is no actual movement. It is dematerializing and materializing somewhere else. If you have three points and point C can only reached by passing B, then with teleportation you can reach C from A without passing B (not in his normal dimension and also not in another one instead). So there should be no light speed at all. You vanish and the earliest possible moment for you to reappear of course is after dematerializing. Whether you appear after 0,00000000000.... seconds or after an hour, you did not reach the new point by moving. Some people mix warping within a warp space (so actual movement and so effort but just not in the same dimension and where time is measured differently) with teleports but actually pure teleportation does not require any effort or movement (imagine it would be like in a warp space, then teleportation would be completely useless if you don't want any effort or normally cannot move because it would still be related to movement just "somewhere else", with only appearing and reappearing it isn't and no effort is required once it is initiated). and the time difference does not come from movement speed between two points but only from the (de)materialization (between two points) and should go from the earliest moment of reappearing possible to no matter how long as it just is not the same as going from one point to another one. and actually I am a bit surprised that something like that was shown in a Cooler movie because it would define Goku's kind of teleport completely different - and worse than teleports are.

[White Oni]

I really like this thread. =)

[White Oni]

In regards to teleportation.
The movement from point A to B takes no time at all. It IS perfect teleportation.

HOWEVER, time is active when Goku puts his finger on his head and while he wills the choice to teleport at all. (not sure if that's really relevant to the discussion, just thought I'd point that out in case it wasn't obvious.)

[Cetra]

In regards to teleportation.
The movement from point A to B takes no time at all. It IS perfect teleportation.

Well, it does take time. The short time between vanishing and appearing (which can be like unmeasurable because of how close low the difference is but it still is a difference because he is not on two places at the same time). I am not talking about that, though and I am talking about time flowing when his teleportation is active, so right when he vanishes. And then he reappears and the time to measure is stopped as that is what is required to measure. It is such an insignificant difference but it is there. And technically teleportation can be as long between vanishing and reappearing as "it wants".

[The Monkey King]

In regards to teleportation.
The movement from point A to B takes no time at all. It IS perfect teleportation.

HOWEVER, time is active when Goku puts his finger on his head and while he wills the choice to teleport at all. (not sure if that's really relevant to the discussion, just thought I'd point that out in case it wasn't obvious.)

The de/rematerialising process does take some time, look at how far Cell's KHH travels inbetween Goku's shukan Ido:

Spoiler:

[The Monkey King]

Oh... yeah... sorry about that.
If you think it'll derail things,I'll delete that bit it if you alter this^ post.

Sure.

[White Oni]

In regards to teleportation.
The movement from point A to B takes no time at all. It IS perfect teleportation.

Well, it does take time. The short time between vanishing and appearing (which can be like unmeasurable because of how close low the difference is but it still is a difference because he is not on two places at the same time). I am not talking about that, though.

Not how I see it.

There is no time when goku isn't at point A or B. He goes directly from A to B. Like I said before, there is that time when he's preparing and thinking about teleporting, but as soon as that's done, once he's will to activate IT, he's no long at A, he's at B.

At least that's how I see it.

From my understanding, this interpretation doesn't commit any paradoxes like being in 2 different places at once.

[White Oni]

Oh... yeah... sorry about that.
If you think it'll derail things,I'll delete that bit it if you alter this^ post.

Sure.

Done, I think. lol

[Cetra]

Not how I see it.

There is no time when goku isn't at point A or B. He goes directly from A to B. Like I said before, there is that time when he's preparing and thinking about teleporting, but as soon as that's done, once he's will to activate IT, he's no long at A, he's at B.

At least that's how I see it.

From my understanding, this interpretation doesn't commit any paradoxes like being in 2 different places at once.

Even if you see it like that or I do, it does not matter. Let's go the way you do for one moment.

- Time when Goku exists at Point A for the last time
- No Time via Instant Transmission
- Time when Goku exists on Point B for the first time.

Teleportation is an action with mutiple moments. Whether it is perfect or not. An action with multiple moments uses actively flowing time as those moments are not just one but, as said, multiple. A moment in its shortest time cannot be measured, of course but there is always time. Goku's teleportation has no ignore time effect as vanishing and reappearing can't happen both at time 0 but, if anything at time 0 and time 0,00000000... you know what I mean. I am moving my finger 10 times within a second (if you say I can move my finger 10 times in one moment and say a moment is a second) but each single action, each single point where my finger is has its own little moment (as a moment very well can be defined way shorter than a second and technically the points where the finger is are not really related t that at the same time, if you know what I mean - the second is not the shortest possible moment and physically can very well be defined way shorter to an immeasurably short difference of time between action start and action done or action 1 and action 2) and is not at the same time. When you say no time passes then it automatically means he is on both places at once which he isn't. Also, we have seen Goku's teleport has a delay so I guess that is really unnecessary to discuss.

And technically those stories where you move in a place where no time exists at all don't work exactly because of that. You moving is a direct result of multiple moments, so time passing. Even if somehow you can "ignore the time around you" you are moving and so at least bring some kind of "own time" with you. If time is completely frozen for you as well you should not be able to move at all because moving or any action costs time. Maybe there are powers higher than those laws, such as God who is omnipotent and so can do whatever he wants no matter how paradox it is for us, but there is no reason to believe Goku is and as we can see, he did more than one action and also seemed to have a delay. And well - the delay would be there even if the manga shows us everything in slow motion which it most of the time in battle does or if it would not show us that in slow motion (which means, we couldn't even notice anything about it but as we know not only what we notice exists).