Piccolo is far stronger than East Kaioshin

[White Oni]

Ok, can we please stop using the Dais as references?

For goodness sake, by that logic, the morons who think Vegetto = Goku's PL times Vegeta's PL are "confirmed" by the Dai...

The Dai does nothing more than present another person's interpretation of the author's work.

It's no different from one of us sharing our opinion.

I'm going to get crap for this, but really, it's the damn truth.

One, if you're going to abbreviate it, at least say "Daiz".

Two, they never said that.

Three, the Daizenshuu guidebooks are officially approved and "supervised" by the author, praised by said author, and written by the people in charge of the franchise.

Four, no, it's not. Neither you nor I can state something in any official capacity on the franchise, unlike the ones who wrote those guidebooks. They override the opinions of random fans on the internet, even if said fans try to assert that they know better.

1) petty

2) IIRC it does.

3) GT was "officially approved" and "supervised" by the author, as was the anime filler... What's your point?

4) Lol no, I'm sorry. Just because something has the word "official" attached to it, it doesn't suddenly become canon. If that were true, then if the Dais said "Goku is the weakest Z fighter." it would mean we'd have to logically conclude that he is. Obviously, that is NOT the case.

[White Oni]

Here's what I'm talking about.

Spoiler:

On p.63 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. Supposedly, Vegetto's battle power is equivalent to Goku's battle power multiplied by Vegeta's. Also according to the introduction of the Super Exciting Guide's training section, all the information in it is based on data that was supervised by Toriyama, though we have no idea how extensive this supervision was.

http://web.archive.org/web/201110101327 ... potara.png

[DBZGTKOSDH]

On p.63 it describes the Potara fusion as being closer to multiplication rather than simple addition in the way it increases power. Supposedly, Vegetto's battle power is equivalent to Goku's battle power multiplied by Vegeta's. Also according to the introduction of the Super Exciting Guide's training section, all the information in it is based on data that was supervised by Toriyama, though we have no idea how extensive this supervision was.

This is what Kanzenshuu says, not something that the SEG says.

Kaioshin cannot sense Yakon's power

Why?

[Hitiro]

Piccolo outright says Kaioshin is stronger by far, and no one doubts him. They all take his words as fact, pretty much saying that he can in fact accurately estimate that (otherwise they'd doubt him), and the story never contradicts them. Daizenshuu 2 and Daizenshuu 7 both further confirming this is just icing on the cake.

But nobody can argue with Piccolo because they haven't been able to get an accurate estimate of his battle power. Kuririn even questions Piccolo's assumption.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next."

Even Goku is wondering how strong he is here. The only thing they can go on is Piccolo's assumption. But it is hardly believable that only Piccolo could sense the difference. Especially when Kaioshin did nothing to indicate his strength apart from mind read Piccolo. And event that isn't an indication of strength. It is more likely that Piccolo realised he was some form of Kaio, which we know as it is indicated in the manga that he believes he was the Great Kaio who stands above the four cardinal Kaio's. The Kaioshin even says before Piccolo forfeits that he must have sensed who he was because he used to be the guardian of Earth. No sensing of battle power is ever indicated all the way through the arc in regards to the Kaioshin.

[Son_Gohan]

I thought I made this clear enough, but for the record, the actual dialogue is this:

Goku: “That bad, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions are too different…”
Kuririn: “You've got to be kidding! I'm gonna have to fight him next!”

The Strength Checker has Goku's line translated as "That much, Piccolo?...", which would have it fit more into a context of them quantifying power. Vegeta's comments right before the match also brings the subject into focus on what would be going through their minds at the time:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

So just limiting the interpretation of that scene to a matter of status ignores the context of the situation. Power would have to be involved in any case since it's not meant to be something that affects only Piccolo, and that is clearly demonstrated by the mutual understanding he has with Goku and co. after the match, where the question of why he forfeits isn't even brought up.

[Hitiro]

I thought I made this clear enough, but for the record, the actual dialogue is this:

Goku: “That bad, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions are too different…”
Kuririn: “You've got to be kidding! I'm gonna have to fight him next!”

The Strength Checker has Goku's line translated as "That much, Piccolo?...", which would have it fit more into a context of them quantifying power. Vegeta's comments right before the match also brings the subject into focus on what would be going through their minds at the time:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

So just limiting the interpretation of that scene to a matter of status ignores the context of the situation. Power would have to be involved in any case since it's not meant to be something that affects only Piccolo, and that is clearly demonstrated by the mutual understanding he has with Goku and co. after the match, where the question of why he forfeits isn't even brought up.

Vegeta says that but they would only be able to get an idea of Kaioshin's power is if Kaioshin actually thought Piccolo. But never happened so they are still only able to estimate his power. The only word they can go on is Piccolo's but Piccolo wouldn't have been able to sense his strength either because Kaioshin did nothing. The Kaioshin does say when Piccolo forfeits that he must have sensed "who" I am. This is later confirmed when Piccolo approached him asking if he was the Great Kaio. So Piccolo had obviously not sensed his power but rather his status and made an assumption of Kaioshin's power. Like how Goku, who didn't know how to sense ki at the time, learned that Kami was the guardian of Earth. He assumed that Kami was incredibly strong and capable of pretty much anything, including defeating Piccolo. Goku only made that assumption due to his title. Much like how Kaioshin also does with several of Babidi's minions. Basing their strength off of their feats rather than their actual strength.

[Son_Gohan]

Vegeta says that but they would only be able to get an idea of Kaioshin's power is if Kaioshin actually thought Piccolo. But never happened so they are still only able to estimate his power. The only word they can go on is Piccolo's but Piccolo wouldn't have been able to sense his strength either because Kaioshin did nothing. The Kaioshin does say when Piccolo forfeits that he must have sensed "who" I am. This is later confirmed when Piccolo approached him asking if he was the Great Kaio. So Piccolo had obviously not sensed his power but rather his status and made an assumption of Kaioshin's power. Like how Goku, who didn't know how to sense ki at the time, learned that Kami was the guardian of Earth. He assumed that Kami was incredibly strong and capable of pretty much anything, including defeating Piccolo. Goku only made that assumption due to his title. Much like how Kaioshin also does with several of Babidi's minions. Basing their strength off of their feats rather than their actual strength.

Piccolo’s response to Goku does not convey uncertainty; it is the speculation of his identity that is shown to be mistaken. Piccolo does not know for a fact who his opponent is, that’s why he has to ask him. It would be preposterous for him to forfeit the match solely on a belief he does not have indisputable evidence for, there’d have to be a more conclusive factor to influence that decision. Kaioshin’s power is one thing he’d be capable of verifying on his own, and all other conclusions could be drawn upon that.

It isn’t coincidence that Piccolo would be able to comprehend Kaioshin’s power just when the match begins since that is relevant to when a character would brace their Ki for battle. It may appear to you that Kaioshin was doing nothing but if you refer back to when Freeza applies 50% of his power, he superficially appeared to just be standing there as well, yet Goku quickly recognizes the change in his Ki before he even makes a move.

[Hitiro]

Piccolo’s response to Goku does not convey uncertainty; it is the speculation of his identity that is shown to be mistaken. Piccolo does not know for a fact who his opponent is, that’s why he has to ask him. It would be preposterous for him to forfeit the match solely on a belief he does not have indisputable evidence for, there’d have to be a more conclusive factor to influence that decision. Kaioshin’s power is one thing he’d be capable of verifying on his own, and all other conclusions could be drawn upon that.

It isn’t coincidence that Piccolo would be able to comprehend Kaioshin’s power just when the match begins since that is relevant to when a character would brace their Ki for battle. It may appear to you that Kaioshin was doing nothing but if you refer back to when Freeza applies 50% of his power, he superficially appeared to just be standing there as well, yet Goku quickly recognizes the change in his Ki before he even makes a move.

Had the Kaioshin been battle ready all of the Z fighters would have sensed his ki. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are not characters who are any less good at sensing ki than Piccolo. Piccolo refrained from fighting him due to the assumption he knew what he could possibly be and the mind-reading only further pushed his belief. If it weren't to do with status as well as his assumption of the Kaioshin's ki level I don't see any reason why Piccolo would forfeit. Piccolo isn't afraid of fighting somebody above him to test his skills. Otherwise why would he have entered a tournament with Goku, Vegeta and Gohan?

[RandomGuy96]

Why?

No one could sense any of Babidi's minions. Goku says he can't sense any life from Spopovich and Yamu, no one can sense Dabra's ki and have to rely on determining his strength via his movements, no one can find Babidi's ship by just sensing the massive ki signatures gathered somewhere, et cetera.

Here's what I'm talking about.

Not only did it not say that, as DBZGTKOSDH stated, but that text isn't even from the Daizenshuu. It's from the SEG.

But nobody can argue with Piccolo because they haven't been able to get an accurate estimate of his battle power. Kuririn even questions Piccolo's assumption.

Yet if that's the case, and no one can period, shouldn't they immediately know that Piccolo can't either, and is lying?

3) GT was "officially approved" and "supervised" by the author, as was the anime filler... What's your point?

Not really, no.

4) Lol no, I'm sorry. Just because something has the word "official" attached to it, it doesn't suddenly become canon. If that were true, then if the Dais said "Goku is the weakest Z fighter." it would mean we'd have to logically conclude that he is. Obviously, that is NOT the case.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Not that it changes anything.

Even Goku is wondering how strong he is here. The only thing they can go on is Piccolo's assumption. But it is hardly believable that only Piccolo could sense the difference. Especially when Kaioshin did nothing to indicate his strength apart from mind read Piccolo. And event that isn't an indication of strength. It is more likely that Piccolo realised he was some form of Kaio, which we know as it is indicated in the manga that he believes he was the Great Kaio who stands above the four cardinal Kaio's. The Kaioshin even says before Piccolo forfeits that he must have sensed who he was because he used to be the guardian of Earth. No sensing of battle power is ever indicated all the way through the arc in regards to the Kaioshin.

Goku doesn't know, yet he trusts Piccolo does, meaning he assumes Piccolo can know when he can't. Your assumptions are meaningless when we're flat-out told by Piccolo that he is inferior.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I think Piccolo is just freaked out by this superior God feeling he is getting. I don't think Kaioshin, Kibito, Dabura, Yamu, Spopovich, Pocus or Yakkon are ever sensed. Only one is Vegeta who perhaps can be sensed because he isn't totally under Badibi's control.

[Hitiro]

Why?

No one can sense Dabra's ki and have to rely on determining his strength via his movements, no one can find Babidi's ship by just sensing the massive ki signatures gathered somewhere, et cetera.

That is incorrect. Goku must have sensed how strong Dabra is because he states he is about as strong as Cell. I also don't think Goku, Gohan and Vegeta didn't know how strong Pui Pui or Yakon were.

But nobody can argue with Piccolo because they haven't been able to get an accurate estimate of his battle power. Kuririn even questions Piccolo's assumption.

Yet if that's the case, and no one can period, shouldn't they immediately know that Piccolo can't either, and is lying?

How would they think Piccolo is lying? What Piccolo believed was good enough to go off of. We know he isn't far off the mark with the Kaioshin as he is still stronger than 100% Freeza. Everybody could tell that the Kaioshin wasn't normal. And Piccolo, having merged with Kami, had insight into his godly status even if he was slightly wrong in terms of titles.

3) GT was "officially approved" and "supervised" by the author, as was the anime filler... What's your point?

Not really, no.

The Daizenshuu attribute the SSJ transformation to a multiplier of 50. Yet Akira Toriyama, who supervised it's creation, said in an interview he thought that 50x Goku's base was a little high. Not everything in the Daizenshuu should be taken as fact. There are mistakes in the Daizenshuu as well as blatant blurring of the truth to make the Daizenshuu coincide with the anime as it makes Goku out to be much stronger and doesn't pertain to his strength in comparison to Gotenks and Gohan when we know both of them exceeded him. They try and obfuscate that information as much as possible.

Even Goku is wondering how strong he is here. The only thing they can go on is Piccolo's assumption. But it is hardly believable that only Piccolo could sense the difference. Especially when Kaioshin did nothing to indicate his strength apart from mind read Piccolo. And event that isn't an indication of strength. It is more likely that Piccolo realised he was some form of Kaio, which we know as it is indicated in the manga that he believes he was the Great Kaio who stands above the four cardinal Kaio's. The Kaioshin even says before Piccolo forfeits that he must have sensed who he was because he used to be the guardian of Earth. No sensing of battle power is ever indicated all the way through the arc in regards to the Kaioshin.

Goku doesn't know, yet he trusts Piccolo does, meaning he assumes Piccolo can know when he can't. Your assumptions are meaningless when we're flat-out told by Piccolo that he is inferior.

Why are my assumptions meaningless? I can have my own opinion on the manga. Everyone is entitled to it. We never actually see Piccolo fight the Kaioshin so we can't say for certain whether he'd win or lose. Going by his assumptions of the Kaioshin is just one way we can judge on his strength. If it really were only about strength, like I said in the post above, then why would he forfeit anyway? As I said; he was already planning to go up against the Saiyan's who had surpassed him a good margin by this point. There would be nothing wrong with him testing his strength against the Kaioshin. The Kaioshin would still have to fight within the rules. It also doesn't make sense that the Kaioshin attributes Piccolo's forfeit to him realising that the Kaioshin was a god. And why Piccolo would ask him. Those are unnecessary points to add to the story as the Kaioshin could have come forward and told them at any time without being questioned by Piccolo. In fact, that was his whole plan anyway.

So why couldn't Akira Toriyama leave it at that? Why did he find it necessary to go and have Piccolo assume god status and a mysterious individual that none of the Z fighters could gauge his power? It wouldn't have diminished the story in any way by not having Piccolo come to that conclusion. In fact, it would have made a lot more sense as when would Kami ever of had the time to know about anybody above the Kaio? Or where would have gotten the idea that this individual was a god even ignoring the Kaio business? How exactly could the Kami side of Piccolo know this? It would have made the story much more clear if AT just let the Kaioshin explain everything like he was going to anyway.

The only logical explanation for AT not doing that is because he wanted to drive Piccolo away from the fight with the assumption that this individual was a higher order of being. At least that's how I see it. So I don't really see why my assumptions are meaningless. They are my assumptions and they derive my opinion. I think it is as valid an opinion as any.

[Son_Gohan]

Had the Kaioshin been battle ready all of the Z fighters would have sensed his ki. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are not characters who are any less good at sensing ki than Piccolo. Piccolo refrained from fighting him due to the assumption he knew what he could possibly be and the mind-reading only further pushed his belief. If it weren't to do with status as well as his assumption of the Kaioshin's ki level I don't see any reason why Piccolo would forfeit. Piccolo isn't afraid of fighting somebody above him to test his skills. Otherwise why would he have entered a tournament with Goku, Vegeta and Gohan?

What separates Piccolo from the others is that he is fused with a being that was formerly God. Kaioshin and Kibito’s Ki is expressed in the manga to possess different properties than those of the lower realm, where Dabura establishes their energy could not be used to revive Buu. In Battle of the Gods the concept is explored in further clarity, with Kaio explaining to Goku that he could not sense Beerus’ Ki on account of him not being a God.

Mind-reading is not a God-exclusive ability, Master Roshi is shown capable of it. For Piccolo to have inferred he was a God he’d have to be able sense his Ki. That is not something he could deduce simply by looking at someone. Ki sensing does not entail just size alone but also qualities of that individual, where it’s been used as a basis for determining whether a character is good or evil. Merely being a God is not evidence for superior strength, even Vegeta in the Saiyan arc had already trumped Kami and North Kaio. Piccolo exceeds the Saiyans in their base forms and knows what to expect from them; he has no idea what Kaioshin is capable of.

[Hitiro]

What separates Piccolo from the others is that he is fused with a being that was formerly God. Kaioshin and Kibito’s Ki is expressed in the manga to possess different properties than those of the lower realm, where Dabura establishes their energy could not be used to revive Buu. In Battle of the Gods the concept is explored in further clarity, with Kaio explaining to Goku that he could not sense Beerus’ Ki on account of him not being a God.

It was established in BoG that Piccolo could not sense God ki. So that is pretty much a mute point. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan could sense some strength from the Kaioshin but it was hard to gauge. As far as we're aware the only beings who actually have God ki are Goku, Beerus and Whis. Goku has used the Kaio as a basis for his instant transmission so it shows that the Kaio's don't have God ki. It stands to reason that it holds true for the Kaioshin too. If they did have God ki then they would have sensed absolutely nothing from them and they wouldn't have thought they'd be a challenge or last in the tournament.

Mind-reading is not a God-exclusive ability, Master Roshi is shown capable of it. For Piccolo to have inferred he was a God he’d have to be able sense his Ki. That is not something he could deduce simply by looking at someone. Ki sensing does not entail just size alone but also qualities of that individual, where it’s been used as a basis for determining whether a character is good or evil. Merely being a God is not evidence for superior strength, even Vegeta in the Saiyan arc had already trumped Kami and North Kaio. Piccolo exceeds the Saiyans in their base forms and knows what to expect from them; he has no idea what Kaioshin is capable of.

Master Roshi never used a Mind-reading ability. It was telepathy, a completely different ability where you project your thoughts into someone else's mind. He never invaded a persons mind and learned what they were thinking. For Piccolo to have inferred that the Kaioshin was a God is never elaborated on. The only thing that was said was Piccolo's Kami experience allowed him to tell he was some sort of higher order of being. Piccolo never demonstrates such an ability with Beerus or Whis.

Being a God does hold some ideology of power in any regard. For the times Kami and the North Kaio were introduced they were considered strong by the plots standpoint. Kami, more-so as Popo indeed clarified he could have done something about Piccolo. Kami was actually only surpassed during the training leading up to the Budokai. And that was only by two individuals, Goku and Piccolo. The same could be said for the North Kaio. It could be argued that Goku and Vegeta were the only ones that had surpassed him during his initial appearance leading up to the fight.

And the Kaioshin have existed for eons and were all already strong enough to fell Freeza in a single blow. So considering their status that is a pretty impressive feat for the Namek arc at least. There hadn't been anyone up until around the Android arc who would be a match for them so even if Piccolo and the gang had surpassed them they would still have no way to grasp the difference unless they thought because up till that point there was no reference for them to compare themselves to the Kaioshin because the Kaioshin would have been considered "the strongest." So Piccolo finding out a god that is above the Kaio is at the tournament would naturally make him believe that this god is stronger than the Kaio and perhaps because he assumed the the Kaioshin was the Great Kaio he had already heard things which set the Great Kaio way above the regular ones due to his previous status as Kami.

[Son_Gohan]

It was established in BoG that Piccolo could not sense God ki. So that is pretty much a mute point. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan could sense some strength from the Kaioshin but it was hard to gauge. As far as we're aware the only beings who actually have God ki are Goku, Beerus and Whis. Goku has used the Kaio as a basis for his instant transmission so it shows that the Kaio's don't have God ki. It stands to reason that it holds true for the Kaioshin too. If they did have God ki then they would have sensed absolutely nothing from them and they wouldn't have thought they'd be a challenge or last in the tournament.

Master Roshi never used a Mind-reading ability. It was telepathy, a completely different ability where you project your thoughts into someone else's mind. He never invaded a persons mind and learned what they were thinking. For Piccolo to have inferred that the Kaioshin was a God is never elaborated on. The only thing that was said was Piccolo's Kami experience allowed him to tell he was some sort of higher order of being. Piccolo never demonstrates such an ability with Beerus or Whis.

Being a God does hold some ideology of power in any regard. For the times Kami and the North Kaio were introduced they were considered strong by the plots standpoint. Kami, more-so as Popo indeed clarified he could have done something about Piccolo. Kami was actually only surpassed during the training leading up to the Budokai. And that was only by two individuals, Goku and Piccolo. The same could be said for the North Kaio. It could be argued that Goku and Vegeta were the only ones that had surpassed him during his initial appearance leading up to the fight.

And the Kaioshin have existed for eons and were all already strong enough to fell Freeza in a single blow. So considering their status that is a pretty impressive feat for the Namek arc at least. There hadn't been anyone up until around the Android arc who would be a match for them so even if Piccolo and the gang had surpassed them they would still have no way to grasp the difference unless they thought because up till that point there was no reference for them to compare themselves to the Kaioshin because the Kaioshin would have been considered "the strongest." So Piccolo finding out a god that is above the Kaio is at the tournament would naturally make him believe that this god is stronger than the Kaio and perhaps because he assumed the the Kaioshin was the Great Kaio he had already heard things which set the Great Kaio way above the regular ones due to his previous status as Kami.

Kaioshin doesn’t need to have the same type of Ki as Beerus for the concept to apply. It is expressed in the story by Kaioshin that Piccolo’s merging with a God is what allows him to perceive what Goku and co. cannot. He wouldn’t come to the conclusion that his opponent is a God simply through the sense of sight, and you have yet to soundly establish how he would do that without sensing his Ki. Until then, your position lacks foundation.

Master Roshi reads Nams mind at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

[mAcChaos]

Regarding what Herms said about Krillin's response.

*Piccolo resigns the match*
Goku: "That bad, Piccolo?"
Piccolo: "Yeah…He’s a high-ranking god."
Kuririn: "You’ve got to be kidding! I’m gonna have to fight him next!"

Notice what Piccolo says. He doesn't say HE'S STRONG, he says HE'S A HIGH RANKING GOD. That is what makes him special. Krillin just assumes that he's going to get his ass kicked because he just thinks "he's a god, he must be strong" like everybody does before they find out the truth.

I thought I made this clear enough, but for the record, the actual dialogue is this:

Goku: “That bad, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions are too different…”
Kuririn: “You've got to be kidding! I'm gonna have to fight him next!”

Like I said, "our dimensions are too different" is a really standard way of saying somebody's way stronger than you. It's used that way a bunch throughout the series. But people like to say "oh, he's just talking about Kaioshin's divine rank or something".

My point is that even if you replace Piccolo's "our dimensions are too different" with "he's a high-ranking god," the dialogue still only makes sense if "high-ranking god" and "way stronger than me" are interchangeable.

Whoops, quoted the wrong part and got confused.

Yeah, but then why couldn't the others sense Kaioshin's strength? They shouldn't need to rely on Piccolo. Sesning the God status, though, makes sense. And why wouldn't Krillin just get scared of the implication that there's some guy formidable enough to make Piccolo of all people, who ripped his arm off rather than concede the last time he was in one of these tournaments, concede? To me it looks more like they're just going "whoa he even spooked Piccolo, this guy must be something serious."

[Hitiro]

Kaioshin doesn’t need to have the same type of Ki as Beerus for the concept to apply. It is expressed in the story by Kaioshin that Piccolo’s merging with a God is what allows him to perceive what Goku and co. cannot. He wouldn’t come to the conclusion that his opponent is a God simply through the sense of sight, and you have yet to soundly establish how he would do that without sensing his Ki. Until then, your position lacks foundation.

Master Roshi reads Nams mind at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

It never really explains how he does it. Perhaps there is a similar feeling from the Kaioshin to other Gods? But the fact remains that Ki size would never have had anything to do with Piccolo thinking he was the Great Kaio. He could have thought he was an alien with incredible strength like Freeza but he didn't. And if it was because the Kaioshin felt like other Gods then Goku should have been able to pick up on it too. He has been around the Kaio's a lot during his 7 year training in heaven. I don't see how my position lacks foundation really. There is no point in having Piccolo make the God status assumption when the Kaioshin was going to reveal himself anyway. As I said in my post to RandomGuy96. There had to be a reason for Toriyama to put in that assumption by Piccolo. It had to have had an influence on his decision to fight because as we know Piccolo joined the tournament knowing full well he would be fighting against the Saiyan's. So he should have no problem fighting another strong fighter to test himself.

In the manga Master Roshi puts the whole capsule thing down to intuition. It is never explicitly said that he read his mind. Master Roshi could have put 2 and 2 together and thought that if a person from a very baron and dry land to earn prize money it is probably to do with scarce water.

[dbgtFO]

In the manga Master Roshi puts the whole capsule thing down to intuition. It is never explicitly said that he read his mind. Master Roshi could have put 2 and 2 together and thought that if a person from a very baron and dry land to earn prize money it is probably to do with scarce water.

No, he very explicitly read his mind. You see him establishing a link to Nam's mind and then seeing his thoughts. It's in vol. 4 chapter 38.

[Cetra]

In the manga Master Roshi puts the whole capsule thing down to intuition. It is never explicitly said that he read his mind. Master Roshi could have put 2 and 2 together and thought that if a person from a very baron and dry land to earn prize money it is probably to do with scarce water.

Source: Dragon Ball, Vol. 4, pg. 22-23, created by Akira Toriyama from 1984-1995

[Son_Gohan]

It never really explains how he does it. Perhaps there is a similar feeling from the Kaioshin to other Gods? But the fact remains that Ki size would never have had anything to do with Piccolo thinking he was the Great Kaio. He could have thought he was an alien with incredible strength like Freeza but he didn't. And if it was because the Kaioshin felt like other Gods then Goku should have been able to pick up on it too. He has been around the Kaio's a lot during his 7 year training in heaven. I don't see how my position lacks foundation really. There is no point in having Piccolo make the God status assumption when the Kaioshin was going to reveal himself anyway. As I said in my post to RandomGuy96. There had to be a reason for Toriyama to put in that assumption by Piccolo. It had to have had an influence on his decision to fight because as we know Piccolo joined the tournament knowing full well he would be fighting against the Saiyan's. So he should have no problem fighting another strong fighter to test himself.

In the manga Master Roshi puts the whole capsule thing down to intuition. It is never explicitly said that he read his mind. Master Roshi could have put 2 and 2 together and thought that if a person from a very baron and dry land to earn prize money it is probably to do with scarce water.

Kaio had no idea he was Kaioshin either. Once again, sensing someone’s Ki evokes other information, it wouldn’t have to be based on size alone. The reader is given confirmation that Piccolo was able to grasp his power when Goku acknowledges him after the match. Goku and co. are only concerned of Kaioshin as a potential opponent, where strength is the subject of interest. “God status” does not apply in this situation, so it is not the only thing Piccolo could have comprehended. If you cannot provide a substantial reason for how Piccolo would discern he was a God without Ki sense then there is really nothing holding this belief up, and no point in discussing it further.

You’re just pulling my leg now. Goku also reads Krillin’s mind on Namek. It’s not a God-exclusive ability.

[Hitiro]

Source: Dragon Ball, Vol. 4, pg. 22-23, created by Akira Toriyama from 1984-1995

Must have skipped those pages when I re-checked to make sure I was along the right lines. My bad, lol.

Kaio had no idea he was Kaioshin either. Once again, sensing someone’s Ki evokes other information, it wouldn’t have to be based on size alone. The reader is given confirmation that Piccolo was able to grasp his power when Goku acknowledges him after the match. Goku and co. are only concerned of Kaioshin as a potential opponent, where strength is the subject of interest. “God status” does not apply in this situation, so it is not the only thing Piccolo could have comprehended. If you cannot provide a substantial reason for how Piccolo would discern he was a God without Ki sense then there is really nothing holding this belief up, and no point in discussing it further.

You’re just pulling my leg now. Goku also reads Krillin’s mind on Namek. It’s not a God-exclusive ability.

Piccolo may have just grasped that he was a God above Gods and assumed he was outmatched. There is nothing to say it didn't play out that way. Granted, it doesn't mean it didn't play out the way you say. But to argue Piccolo sensed the Kaioshin's power when Kaioshin had yet display and the other Z fighters never grapsed it is a bit bewildering. Again, if Piccolo merely comprehended his strength then why wouldn't Piccolo fight against him? We have established that Piccolo joined the tournament knowing full-well he would have had to fight one of the Saiyan's eventually. It didn't bother him. And the Kaioshin, while being strong, is nowhere near the Saiyan's. So there would be no reason for him to back down unless it was purely status related. Him assuming Kaioshin was stronger is just icing on the cake in my opinion. There is no reason for him to back down purely due to a strength standpoint. Even if it is true.

And why does Ki sensing have to include the amount of Kaioshin's strength? As you said sensing Ki evokes other information. That doesn't mean Piccolo sensed the amount of Ki accurately. The other Z fighters had already discerned that the Kaioshin and Kibito weren't ordinary people. Even though they couldn't gauge their strength.

Why can't Piccolo sense his God status without gauging his strength? I don't see a reason why that wouldn't be possible.

As I pointed out above I forgot that Roshi did that. I only remember the pages where he throws him the capsule and chalks it down to intuition. And that is the only page I checked. I also know Goku did it but I would consider Goku's mind reading a different ability because it requires physical contact. It also required Kuririn to relax and clear his mind, so it isn't anywhere near the ability the Kaioshin or Roshi demonstrated. It's like saying Goku and Kibito's teleport abilities are the same when one is vastly superior to the other. They are considered separate abilities.