Daizenshuu - the Power Levels contradict the Manga.

[DannyDBZfanforever]

Daizenshuu states than Goku has a PL of 3 000 000 (in his Base form) before facing Frieza and after he transforms into the lengendary Super Saiyan, he has a PL of 150 000 000. Why is this wrong? Here is why...

The last time the manga tells us about PL was with Frieza in his second transformation - he states categorically with any confession and no doubt that his PL was above 1 million units. After this, we have Trunks (with its hidden power) with a PL of 5 units (somewhat like a human). And that is all we get from PL in the manga,this is our last information about subject. Nothing more.
After that, the manga does not give us more info about PL (numbers), but Daizenshuu states than Goku has a 150 Mil during his final battle on Namek against Frieza. They became stronger in the following sagas, we assume that Goku has a PL of 160 million and Vegeta a PL of 175 million at the beginning of the Cell Saga (or androids if you prefer). So the Androids have to be stronger, Piccolo fuses with Kami, he is as strong as the #17 and #16 is as strong as Imperfect Cell, after he absorbed hundreds of thousands of humans. By the logic of the Daizenshuu, Cell (after absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans) and # 16 should have their PL in the hundreds of millions of units and this is absolutely ridiculous and contradictory by the manga itself. In fact, Goku PL 150 Mil against Frieza is also absolutely ridiculous and virtually impossible for the manga.

After Cell escapes from Piccolo, Trunks and Krilin. Cell sees Vegeta (Super Saiyan Form) flying, Cell says that Vegeta is much stronger than he expected. Cell was absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans, the manga (unfortunately) does not give us the exact number but a rectangle of manga page has this information. Hundreds of thousands, it can be a number between 100.000 and 900.000 people. If we consider that a human has an average KI of 5 units. The absorption of Humans gave Cell a value between 500.000 and 4.500.000 units of pure power.
If Goku had 3 million and his Super Saiyan 150 000 000, these numbers would be ridiculously high. What I mean, before absorbing humans (hundreds of thousands) Cell states that Vegeta is much stronger than he expected. Piccolo after fusing with Kami is stronger than Vegeta and as strong as # 17, but weaker than # 16 and Cell itself after absorbing hundreds of thousands of humans. A value between 500.000 and 4.500.000 would be negligible for beings who would already be in the hundreds of millions, and remember Goku PL by Daizenshuu is 150 000 000 at the end of Namek Saga, in other words, a value between 500.000 and 4.500.000 would be negligible even for someone with a PL 150 million and would not make any difference in a combat situation.
Plus: That's why the Daizenshuu numbers are false and contradictory to manga. And to top of that, the Daizenshuu numbers do not take into account the damage that warriors take during a battle, a warrior who takes more damage = the more warrior gets weak = lower the PL of this warrior is.

So I do not accept the numbers and multiples Daizenshuu as part of the work of Dragon Ball, because these numbers and multipliers are absolutely contradictory, wandering, vague and absolutely ridiculous and virtually impossible for the manga.

[freezamite]

WoW! Hahahah that's what I wrote here in another thread some time ago (more than a year ago by now). Yes, that's mostly the definitive proof that those multi hundreds of milions of units are something that totally contradict the series.
In fact, I used that number number to estimate the power of an untrained SSJ at around 3.000.000 of units (I gave that to SSJ Vegeta, less for SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goku).

[hleV]

Cell had lost his shape when he went into the cocon form in order to time-travel. He then absorbed humans' energy so his power could re-grow to its original state, but that doesn't translate to Cell absorbing humans' power.

[Darkprince410]

I don't see how they're contradictory in the slightest. If you want, just assume that the Daizenshuu is labeling their battle powers based on how strong they would be at that point, while fresh. Goku arrived to fight Freeza being at a level far higher than Vegeta was at the time, who in turn was far higher than Freeza's 3rd form, who in turn was stronger than Piccolo, who likewise was over one million. Three million given that progression is hardly surprising, and given that (as stated in that other topic) Goku would have needed to be well over 40x as strong as his base form in order to fight of Freeza, the 150,000,000 end result would work there as well.

I hardly see why such increases strike you as being completely impossible, when throughout the course of Z up to the Freeza Saga, characters are growing many times stronger in the course of a few days. Goku in the course of a week grows to be ten times stronger (a little over 8,000 to 90,000 in his base) just with intense training, and likewise through various other means we see Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta also have tremendous increases.

Why is it then, when there's no evidence in the manga contradicting it, that these kinds of multi-fold increases implausible to you for the later storylines (Cell and Buu)? Is it just that you can't see the numbers themselves getting that high? Toriyama stopped creating battle powers for characters by that point, and it could easily be inferred that he didn't want to have numbers sort of dictate how strong he wanted/needed characters to be. It's a lot easier for him to create an enemy that's "Insanely more powerful than even Goku" than it would be to create an enemy that's "125x as powerful as Goku".

We know that #17 and #18 are over twice as powerful as Ssj Goku was when he fought Freeza, we know that FpSsj Goku is around twice as powerful as Ssj 2nd Grade Vegeta, so you throw in the other stuff in the mix and you've got FpSsj Goku 5-10x as strong as he was during the Freeza Saga, easily. That's just an example of showing that large increases were continuing to go on throughout the manga in a short time.

I would also like to point out that there's nothing actually said in the manga that Cell's absorption of normal people increased his power in a strict addition sort of sense, that absorbing person A with a battle power of 5 increased his battle power by 5. He's not like #19 and Gero, where they simply stored and amplified their strength using ki drained from others. He took biological material from those he absorbed by sucking it into him like one would a drink with a straw. We don't know how the process works for him, so we can't assume it's a direct, additive increase.

Lastly, and this is something I've addressed to you before but you've neglected to respond to it, Toriyama himself even said that he wished he had the Daizenshuu when he was writing the manga. If the Daizenshuu as a whole was so contradictory and wrong as you claim that it is, why would he have said that about it? In my opinion, him stating that he wished he had the Daizenshuu when he was writing the story basically confirms to me that the information within (battle powers included) he found accurate, and thus Goku being 150,000,000 he also found as acceptable for that point.

[Adamant]

So where in the manga does it say that absorbing one human increases Cell's battle power by roughly 5 again?

All it contradicts is your own headcanon.

[Darkron2151]

Cell absorbing the humans is known as "bio-extraction", where he absorbs the organic essence out of any organic life form (humans) that he absorbs. In no way did he say that he absorbed their "power" or "ki", but that it had a dynamic effect on his own power, which is showed in the manga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The only battle powers that I can't accept from the Daizenshuu are the battle powers of Raditz (1.500) & Nappa (4.000), and the statement that says that Goten is as strong as Gohan. The rest are fine IMO.

[Darkprince410]

I'll even accept those battle powers really, since the manga simply said that the Saibamen's 1,200 rivaled Raditz's strength (leaving 1,500 open to be plausible), and Nappa's could just be the range he was at when he was fighting the Z Senshi prior to Goku's arrival.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'll even accept those battle powers really, since the manga simply said that the Saibamen's 1,200 rivaled Raditz's strength (leaving 1,500 open to be plausible)

Dodoria (22.000) and Zarbon (23.000) definitely didn't rival Vegeta (24.000). That's my problem.

Nappa's could just be the range he was at when he was fighting the Z Senshi prior to Goku's arrival.

This could be it (though Nappa can't change his BP, he could be holding back), but based on his fight with Goku when he got serious, he is definitely not at 4.000.

[Zephyr]

I'll even accept those battle powers really, since the manga simply said that the Saibamen's 1,200 rivaled Raditz's strength (leaving 1,500 open to be plausible)

Dodoria (22.000) and Zarbon (23.000) definitely didn't rival Vegeta (24.000). That's my problem.

Dodoria and Zarbon differ from Vegeta by 2000 and 1000, respectively.

The Saiabmen would differ from Raditz by a mere 300.

I can see how that would work.

[Pantalones]

a value between 500.000 and 4.500.000 would be negligible even for someone with a PL 150 million and would not make any difference in a combat situation.

...Unless Cell powering up for battle results in a "Super Saiyan-esque" state which multiplies his "base" level by some large amount. Then a 4.5 million boost would be HUGE for this point in the series; assuming Cell's "Sorta SSj" gives 50x the same as regular SSj (which is kind of a stretch, I know), a 4.5 million point boost to "base" Cell would be the equivalent of a 225 million point boost for "Sorta SSj" Cell.

Cell does have Super Saiyan-like auras when he powers up, by the way (and later on even starts imitating specific SSj forms--first the ultra-bulked-up "Grade 3" form, and then after blowing up he even has his own take on SSj2!), so this idea isn't coming completely out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure that, in the anime at least, the first time Cell is shown with a SSj-like aura is after he powers up following the "went around eating tons of random humans" part... coincidentally the exact point when he suddenly gets a huge boost and goes from "Piccolo could stomp him without even getting serious even after losing an arm" to "everyone weaker than #16 is helpless, and even #16 is only his equal." Maybe that was the main thing he had lost when regressing to his larval state--the ability to go "Sorta SSj," which he had to absorb a certain amount of power to regain even after developing back into his adult "Imperfect" stage.

(And coincidentally, Cell being in a weaker "base" state prior to his interruption of the Piccolo/#17 fight also makes that one filler scene, where Krillin can sorta kinda almost stand up against Cell briefly--catching him off guard and knocking him away with a headbutt--make a lot more sense. Krillin's not headbutting a SSj-level opponent out of the way here; Cell's a lot weaker than that here.)

There are things that make some of the Daizenshuu levels seem iffy or unlikely, but this isn't really one of them.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

We don't know how the humans affected Cell. I think assuming he had to eat to get back to his level of power before reverting to his larva form makes the most sense. Cell eventually got to a point where he was surprised at how powerful he'd become--which tells me that the absorption of the humans ended up being more than a simple additive power-gain. Either way, I don't think this part of the story can be used to establish an error in the Daizenshuu's Battle Powers.

Goku's Battle Power after healing from the Ginyu battle makes perfect sense. The story shows us that Goku is indeed stronger than Vegeta, who's stronger than 3rd form Freeza, who's stronger than Piccolo, who's stronger than 2nd form Freeza--and his Battle Power is stated to be above 1 million. Not to mention his additional power-up's in his 2nd form as well. I don't see what the issue is with Goku's Battle Power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Dodoria and Zarbon differ from Vegeta by 2000 and 1000, respectively.

The Saiabmen would differ from Vegeta by a mere 300.

I can see how that would work.

This isn't how it works.

[hleV]

Dodoria and Zarbon differ from Vegeta by 2000 and 1000, respectively.

The Saiabmen would differ from Vegeta by a mere 300.

I can see how that would work.

This isn't how it works.

Or perhaps you have the wrong idea of how it works.

[Zephyr]

Dodoria and Zarbon differ from Vegeta by 2000 and 1000, respectively.

The Saiabmen would differ from Vegeta by a mere 300.

I can see how that would work.

This isn't how it works.

Wait my bad, I meant Raditz. Fixing my post now.

[Darkprince410]

Dodoria and Zarbon differ from Vegeta by 2000 and 1000, respectively.

The Saiabmen would differ from Vegeta by a mere 300.

I can see how that would work.

This isn't how it works.

Well, you have to remember that it's Nappa that's saying that about Raditz and the Saibamen. To him, with a battle power several times theirs, a gap of only 300 "units" could be close enough for him to say that the Saibamen rival Raditz in terms of strength.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Or perhaps you have the wrong idea of how it works.

Then explain me how it works. Because if it worked like this, then SS Goku should have killed Freeza with one punch, since their difference is by 3.000.000.

Well, you have to remember that it's Nappa that's saying that about Raditz and the Saibamen. To him, with a battle power several times theirs, a gap of only 300 "units" could be close enough for him to say that the Saibamen rival Raditz in terms of strength.

Toriyama said the same thing.

[valfranx]

Dragonball Manga: Contradictions
For those that thought that the Manga was completely correct, you are about to take a journey into the truth. Toriyama-sensei couldn't have made everything correct and exact. Many folks bash the Daizenshuu when it itself has some corrections for the Manga, but then again as I proved earlier it is not completely correct either. One thing we have learned in this world is, "...nothing is perfect".
I will show 2 contradictions out of the hundredths that there are, and I will provide the most vital. I am not bashing the Manga, and by God not my former boss Toriyama-sama just clearing out for those that claim the Manga is correct, and that Manga based curriculums are 100% true, then think again.
1. GOKU VS CELL: Son Goku, destroyed Cell's brain, and later on when Cell, self destructs, he explains that his resurrection was due to the fact that a Cell from his brain survived the explosion. By this the Manga is implying that all the Z fighters had to do is destroy his brain which Son Goku did, so it is therefore a contradiction.

2. In the Original Manga, Jisu gets ready to read Bejita's power level and he reads his battle power at " ..20,000!". Refer to Daizenshuu 7 and you see that in the battle power chart, Bejita's battle power for when Son Goku arrives on Planet Namek is 30,000. As far as we know this is the first place ever to give Bejita's battle power from that time as being 30,000. Look at the Kanzenban re-release of the Manga(which I worked in) which featured things such as slightly revised artwork and a new ending by Toriyama-sensei, the dialogue from before Bejita fight Reccome is change so that Bejita's power level coincides with the Daizenshuu 7.

Many people say that Toriyama-sensei had nothing to do with any of the Daizenshuu's because he made the Dragonball Escheat in 1994, that is completely untrue. Also people say that he wasn't invovled in GT either, which is also false. In the past, it has been proved Toriyama's initial involvement in DragonBall GT via his early character and landscape designs in the daizenshuu and DBGT Perfect File books. Daizenshuu 6 ("MOVIES & TV SPECIALS"), in particular, showcases Toriyama's character designs for the likes of Coola (and his henchmen), movie 7's jinzôningen, Broli, Bojack, etc.
What about the general filler material in the TV show?Toriyama had nothing to do with any of that, right...? Not quite.It is certainly not the case that Toriyama wrote and "drew" every single episode in the TV series, but the recent anime guide Son Gokû Densetsu finally gives us a little glimpse into the clearly-overworked man's involvement in the TV series. There were many character designs Toriyama came up with for filler material, including Paikuhan, Dai-Kaiô, and the beginnings of King Vegeta. We also learn that for many story points, Toriyama would typically come up with a vague idea and leave a memo for the TV series staff to, essentially, go wild with and develop a full story from said idea. Some of these items included the back-history of the Saiyans and the Tsufurus for DBZ episode 20, the Z-Senshi's training with the "Ancient" Saiyans via Kami's Palace, and Lunch's persistent chasing of Tenshinhan. Yamcha's job as a baseball player was Toriyama-sensei's idea! Also remember cases such as Bardock, who was essentially a joint-collaboration between Akira Toriyama and Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. In fact, Toriyama liked the idea so much, he ended up integrating it into his own canon storyline in the manga.
So please don't listen to dumb rumors retwisting or denying what took place because it is completely untrue.

James A. Nelson

http://jamesanelson45.blogspot.com.br/

[RandomGuy96]

I'll even accept those battle powers really, since the manga simply said that the Saibamen's 1,200 rivaled Raditz's strength (leaving 1,500 open to be plausible)

Dodoria (22.000) and Zarbon (23.000) definitely didn't rival Vegeta (24.000). That's my problem.

Nappa's could just be the range he was at when he was fighting the Z Senshi prior to Goku's arrival.

This could be it (though Nappa can't change his BP, he could be holding back), but based on his fight with Goku when he got serious, he is definitely not at 4.000.

Zarbon is 96% of Vegeta. You seriously don't consider that rivaling? I consider rivaling to be any difference small enough that the two fighters are in the same general league and can actually fight each other, and the weaker one can catch up relatively quickly if the stronger one is not careful.

You keep saying that he's "definitely not 4,000", but we plainly saw that he was far inferior to a battle power of 5,000. Plus, ~2,800 attacks could hurt him, and a fighter at 8,000 makes him look like a complete joke.

[dbgtFO]

Meh, it always annoyed me, they didn't clearly differentiate between one's full power and full power blast like with Gohan's Masenko or the 910 reading of Goku at the 23rd Tournment in the Weekly Jump scan.

And Nappa at 4,000 was also one, I used to argue against, but then I started to convince myself, it might be conceivable.
Even then with my own logic, it would require the assumption, that Goku was not putting in full effort after initially powering up.
It could make sense, that he was drawing out the battle to get the point across, he was fighting for his friends("this one's for Yamcha!" etc.).
There was also a line by Vegeta in the viz version(or maybe I'm mixing it up with a crappy scanlation?), before Nappa cooled down, that Goku still had power in reserve or something like that, but I don't know, if it was in the original.

As far as DannyDBZfanforever's reasons for disregarding them, well I think people have already given good answers to those, namely the whole Cell's BP only increases by 5/human is entirely conjecture.