Official On-Going DBZ 2013 Movie Thread: "Battle of Gods"

[Gaffer Tape]

So how about that? After a year and a half, I finally decided to sit down and watch this movie, so now I can finally look at this thread without being spoiled. I'm honestly amazed I managed to hold out this long without ever being spoiled about most of what happened.

But as long as people are talking about this particular scene right now, I just wanted to say that... dub acting aside, it's a scene I just really don't get. As in, the whole thing just feels really out of character for Goku. In fact, complaining about having to rely on other people to defeat an enemy seems much more like something Vegeta would say, and, in fact, did say in the Cell arc. But this is Goku. You know, the guy who has the Genki Dama as one of his signature attacks? I never heard him say he was annoyed that he had to rely on other people to kill Majin Boo, so why is he suddenly getting all pissy about Super Saiyan God?

[Gyt Kaliba]

But this is Goku. You know, the guy who has the Genki Dama as one of his signature attacks? I never heard him say he was annoyed that he had to rely on other people to kill Majin Boo, so why is he suddenly getting all pissy about Super Saiyan God?

I can't say with 100% certainty that this is how it is obviously, but maybe Goku looks at that differently since it's a 'technique' and not a power up. The Genki Dama is a one-time thing each time, essentially. Goku pulls together the energy, he throws the attack, it's over and done with (well, it rarely actually is...but...that's a whole other debate!). Super Saiyan God however is a power that seems like it's gonna stick with him no matter what he does (assuming again of course that that isn't something the new movie addresses), so it could rub him the wrong way more since it's something he's stuck with.

...At the same time though, I don't recall him ever complaining when he got power boosts from being injured, or the holy water, and so on...so maybe it is a bit inconsistent.

That said though, glad you finally watched the movie! Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the other aspects of Super Saiyan God, such as it's design, it's history, and how it's achieved in-story?

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, I mention the Genki Dama just as the most obvious example, but it still just seems out of place with his character and actions throughout the series. I mean, I'm re-watching the Saiyan arc right now, and that's the one where Goku only manages to get through the battle through cooperating with Gohan, Kuririn, and Yajirobe. I'm working on the Piccolo Daimao arc in Dragon Ball Dissection right now. When Tenshinhan lifted him to safety when Goku couldn't move, did he complain about that? No. Goku doesn't have that stupid pride issue like Vegeta does/did. The ONLY time I can think of where he angrily objected to being helped was when he was fighting Ma Junior, and that's because it was a match, and he wouldn't be able to fairly win it if they stepped in. But when the fate of the world is at stake, he does what needs to be done. So to me it just felt like grafting more unnecessary "Saiyan" traits onto him.

Anyway, as for your questions, I really like the design of SSJG. I always have. I like the pinkish-red hair. I like the slim form. I like the eyes. While I'm tired of new transformations in general, I like that it breaks away from the SSJ formula. While the whole ritual thing seems a little easy and hokey, I actually did like it a lot. I rolled my eyes when they said they need five Saiyans because, oh, look, we just happen to have that exact amount. When Whis explained they actually needed six, I knew exactly where the sixth was going to come from since they telegraphed it pretty obviously, but I still thought it was amazingly clever. And it was really nice that it technically gave Videl something to do, although, in true Dragon Ball fashion, it just boiled down to her being breeding stock.

And I'll just go ahead and paste this verbatim from my MistareFusion facebook page:

"Mostly plot hole-type things. In particular, plot holes in regards to the Dragon Balls. So Pilaf said he had three desires: regain his youth, get money, and take over the world. And he managed to collect the Dragon Balls, which were said in the Boo arc to grant three wishes (or at least 2, depending on the wishes made). So... why doesn't he have all of those things? Why does he have to collect the Dragon Balls again other than to possibly undo the first wish? Same thing with when Shenlong is summoned in the movie. He talks about SSJG (which in itself is weird but not entirely impossible) and then takes off. What about the other wishes?"

[Fizzer]

Goku doesn't mind help in a crisis, like when he was fighting any of the big bads (unless it's in a match which doubles as a test of his abilities), and he did go through with the ritual in order to save the Earth - that part was fine. However, Goku had achieved a whole new level of power which dwarfed anything he had before, and it pissed him off because he didn't actually do that himself. This new power of his wasn't his, it was just given to him. Goku likes to better himself and test himself, but when he's just cheated by having a bunch of other people power him up, that aspect is meaningless.

Goku originally wanted to fight Beerus to test himself, but he isn't testing himself when he didn't achieve the power on his own. He's just saving the world with help, which he doesn't mind.

[Kid Buu]

He does reject the Mystic Power-Up too actually.

EDIT: Or maybe not.

[Gaffer Tape]

When was Goku ever offered the "mystic" power-up? I don't recall anyone ever saying he could have it. The Elder Kaioshin DID offer Goku a different power-up: the Potara, a permanent power-up that is completely reliant on another person. And while Goku does later reject it, the first time he does use it, very willingly. And like you said on my facebook page, he was also more than willing to drink a magic potion that made him stronger. Goku suddenly being angsty over this just has no real precedent.

[Kid Buu]

I thought Elder Kai offered him the same ritual Gohan went through only for Goku to reject it? I checked the manga and can't find it though, maybe it as an anime-exclusive scene?

[Doctor.]

I really like the design of SSJG. I always have. I like the pinkish-red hair. I like the slim form. I like the eyes. While I'm tired of new transformations in general, I like that it breaks away from the SSJ formula. While the whole ritual thing seems a little easy and hokey, I actually did like it a lot. I rolled my eyes when they said they need five Saiyans because, oh, look, we just happen to have that exact amount. When Whis explained they actually needed six, I knew exactly where the sixth was going to come from since they telegraphed it pretty obviously, but I still thought it was amazingly clever. And it was really nice that it technically gave Videl something to do, although, in true Dragon Ball fashion, it just boiled down to her being breeding stock.

Seconded, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this way.

[Gyt Kaliba]

The more I think about it, the more this does seem odd to me. I'm surprised this never came up earlier, or at least if it did I never saw it. On the one hand, it does make sense for Goku to want to rely on his own power and better himself through training, as we always see him training and...I dunno, it just feels 'right' for his character to me.

At the same time though...there are numerous examples where it didn't bother him in the least! I guess we could say it's something that's finally developed in him since the events of the manga, but there's not really anything to support that either, so...gah.

Anyway, thanks for your further thoughts on the form, Gaffer. I admit, I was a bit unsure on the design of the form at first too, but once we actually got to see it in motion, I was more or less okay with it. I really do like the idea of a form that doesn't mess with Goku's iconic hairstyle at all, and him getting to fight in basically his natural state as far as base appearances go, while also being at full power? That was something I really enjoyed seeing as well. The ritual itself still kinda bugs me though. I dunno why, but it just feels so...un-Dragon-Ball to me. Not horribly so, but it's just a little off in some way that I can't quite put my finger on.

As far as the Shenron wish thing goes though, I don't really have an answer as to why Pilaf seems to only have gotten one wish, but for his summoning in the movie itself, I figure Shenron just booked it out of there as fast as he could due to his fear of Beerus.

And not to bog you down with more questions just after you watched it, but any thoughts on Beerus and Whis as characters themselves, or their voice portrayals?

[Doctor.]

The Genkidama is different than Super Saiyajin God, though. It's a technique, a last resort. He doesn't keep the power permanently. There hasn't been any other instances where Goku asked his friends to directly give him power. In movies yes, but those are non-canon so they should be disregarded. Goku has always been the type who wants to get stronger and stronger, but on his own. He probably thought achieving SSJG was too easy, there was no risk involved besides the time limit which he easily overcame. All other power-ups he got, he got them through training and/or hard work, including Karin's water. SSJG was just given to him, that's why he was upset.

That, and SSJG was something introduced, not only to pump Goku's power, but to give him character development. To show that he's a Saiyajin with pride, but he can still put it to the side when it comes to defending his friends.

[Chuquita]

Re: ssjg

I really like the design as well. It hits all the right notes for me and I really hope I get to see Gokû use it again in db15. I would've liked an outfit to go with it, but I'm ok with just the minor boot alteration because it meant I got to design my own outfit for it without much influence. :3

[JulieYBM]

I think Gokuu's line about hating that his power was now dependent on the others is because he doesn't particularly mind losing to Beers. Beers might be a little frivolous, but he's not an evil man like others he has faced. He intends to win, if not against Beers than himself, but now the only reason he is competing at all is because he needed others to achieve this new transformation.

[Gaffer Tape]

He worked to get the Chouseisui, sure, but the Choushinsui was just handed to him. The same with the Potara. Both of which are permanent power-ups, not an attack (although I don't see what difference it makes when the attack is one that is meant to be a finishing move). What about those?

Haha, I have kinda the opposite ordered reaction from you, Gyt Kaliba. That there are so many contradictory examples of Goku not acting like that. And even though it makes sense for Goku to want to rely on his own power and better himself through training, the whole thing just felt so, so, sooooo *wrong* for his character to me. I mean, I was literally feeling uncomfortable watching that, like I felt I was missing some piece to the puzzle. That maybe the transformation had altered his personality somehow. Or Beerus was testing him, forcing him to overcome some deep-seated character flaw. Or that he was going to say all of that only to finish by saying that it bothered him but not so much that it would keep him from making the same decision again if it meant saving the earth. I especially thought the latter when he started talking about what he'd seen Vegeta doing earlier, despite his massive pride.

I don't want to get too stuck on what I feel is a grossly out-of-character plot point. Instead, I'll focus on what, from my limited research implies, everyone else thinks is a grossly out-of-character plot point. I actually think Vegeta was handled very, very, very well in this movie. It's really the first time since the Freeza arc I didn't think someone should conk him on the head, throw him in the Room of Spirit and Time, and blow up the entrance so he can't cause any more harm. For once, he's actually not the one who's screwing everything up. He's not the one making everything worse. Hell, he's the one having to stop everyone else from making things worse. Maybe it's partly because I feel this is poetic justice for him, but I really enjoyed every moment he was on screen.

I think Gokuu's line about hating that his power was now dependent on the others is because he doesn't particularly mind losing to Beers.

But, and correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Beerus going to destroy the earth? So Goku very much should mind losing to him. This is more than just a training match. Beerus may not be the standard "heavy" in this story, but he's still a genuine threat.

[Doctor.]

He worked to get the Chouseisui, sure, but the Choushinsui was just handed to him. The same with the Potara. Both of which are permanent power-ups, not an attack (although I don't see what difference it makes when the attack is one that is meant to be a finishing move). What about those?

He still had to overcome the Chousensui's poison. Potara is a special case. He's fusing with someone, so naturally he understands that the Vegetto is the result of both Goku's and Vegeta's strength. It's not him alone. With SSJG, it's only him.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

There's talk that Goku's Buu-arc fighting power was the first time he got something of an ego, not based in his upbringing or heritage like Vegeta, but just the fact that as of that time period, and of Super Saiyain 3 in particular, Goku was genuinely a big deal on a universe-wide scale. As expressed to a T the first time Goku meets Beerus, it is not disrespectful, but it is gloating.

This movie really made a point of trying to knock that line of thought out of him, not merely by introducing a stronger opponent, but by getting Goku to say for the first time in a long time "Good fight, I lost." No technicalities, no pluming the ego of violent aliens or androids. Look at how the fight ends, its literally:

Beerus: "Well, I want to say I lost to you just now..."

Goku: "Don't. Please. You controlled that fight almost the entire time. I lost to you!"

Beerus: "So you understand that I'm kind of a big deal. Wonderful-but no seriously brah, that was insane."

With the stakes being as high as they are in the Z-era, the only way to get that across is with a fellow like Beerus, who has both the jovial spirit to say "You have a really interesting philosophy for a Saiyain" and at the same time say from an outsider's perspective "But don't let it blind you to reality!" The whole thing was about Goku, and Beerus was okay with that because when you're a long-lived God in any universe you see all kinds of crazy things and that was entirely the point of going to Earth. Yes, Beerus was intent on destroying the planet, but the flow of the movie really rendered that threat a macguffin in verb form.

[SSJ3_Zack]

I really want to put subtitles on my Blu-ray copy of the film. Is that possible to do?

[Ajay]

I mean, you can't physically put the subtitles onto the existing disc. You'd have to rip the movie to your PC with something like AnyDVD + MakeMKV and then add the subs with something like MKVMerge. After that it'd be up to you to burn it to a disc if you so desired.

Feel free to PM me if you need any guidance.

[SSJ3_Zack]

I mean, you can't physically put the subtitles onto the existing disc. You'd have to rip the movie to your PC with something like AnyDVD + MakeMKV and then add the subs with something like MKVMerge. After that it'd be up to you to burn it to a disc if you so desired.

Feel free to PM me if you need any guidance.

Thank you! .

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

I thought Sabat said they were adding some effect to Schemmel's voice for ssjg Gokû, I don't hear it here.

In terms of acting, I haven't really been able to watch/enjoy Funi Gokû since TFS because of how much more I like MasakoX's Gokû voice than Schemmel's. Schemmel doesn't sound any better or worse than usual in this clip.

I'm still curious about how they handled the "desu" scene dialogue-wise.

That is why I don't like TFS at all. It just divides the fan base even further. The people shouldn't even be comparing MasakoX to Schemmel at all. In all fairness he has improved a lot since the old days of Z dub. He should be given a chance to portray Gokû, and I think he did darn fine job of it.

[KaiserNeko]

I thought Sabat said they were adding some effect to Schemmel's voice for ssjg Gokû, I don't hear it here.

In terms of acting, I haven't really been able to watch/enjoy Funi Gokû since TFS because of how much more I like MasakoX's Gokû voice than Schemmel's. Schemmel doesn't sound any better or worse than usual in this clip.

I'm still curious about how they handled the "desu" scene dialogue-wise.

That is why I don't like TFS at all. It just divides the fan base even further. The people shouldn't even be comparing MasakoX to Schemmel at all. In all fairness he has improved a lot since the old days of Z dub. He should be given a chance to portray Gokû, and I think he did darn fine job of it.

No.

Don't put that on us. That's hardly fair at all. Don't say you have a problem with us or that you don't like us because people are divided. We're doing our own thing and we're having fun with it, trying to entertain people and tackle DragonBall Z in a completely different manner.